Time to Fire Ron, Jack & Wright

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 hours ago, method man said:

 

Man I'd love to have Klint Kubiak as the OC vs Scott Turner

You can't be serious.  They run an incredibly conservative offense.  I don't know anyone that watches the Vikings offense and thinks 'damn let me get some of that' from a playcalling/scheming perspective.  Maybe he's handcuffed by how ridiculously conservative Zimmer wants to be, but that's a hell to to the no for me.

Edited January 3, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[88Comrade2000]

10 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

So, missing out on stafford is Ron’s fault....? Fitzpatrick getting injured in week 1 is Ron’s fault? 

We never should've signed Fitz.

 

 

 

Next Monday, TanDan has to have a meeting with Ron and the Martys. Review the season and what went wrong and how to fix that. Does Ron need to shake up his staff?

Then finally, answer how we plan to upgrade at QB. What are options that we are going to pursue. Free agency? Trade for someone? Draft ?

[ntotoro]

The thing with Ron is a lot of the "culture" things people are praising him for are things that should just be. It has nothing to do with Rivera. Not objectifying female employees isn't a brave stance... it's just common sense. Not having a shady Front Office isn't praise-worthy... it's just how it's supposed to be. The end of the day Snyder is still in charge of it all. 

 

The on-field product sucks and putting that same man in charge of the personnel doesn't help things. His OC can't even figure out how to best use the talent he has. His DC is bipolar at best. Probably going to lose their #1 WR this season and still have no QB of even the present, much less the future.

[NewCliche21]

1 minute ago, ntotoro said:

The thing with Ron is a lot of the "culture" things people are praising him for are things that should just be. It has nothing to do with Rivera. Not objectifying female employees isn't a brave stance... it's just common sense. Not having a shady Front Office isn't praise-worthy... it's just how it's supposed to be. The end of the day Snyder is still in charge of it all. 

 

The on-field product sucks and putting that same man in charge of the personnel doesn't help things. His OC can't even figure out how to best use the talent he has. His DC is bipolar at best. Probably going to lose their #1 WR this season and still have no QB of even the present, much less the future.

 

Well yeah, it "should" be that way, and the fact that it isn't makes it WAY harder to happen.  That's like saying that physical therapists don't deserve any credit because the guy who's habitually been injured for 20 years should be able to walk in the first place.

And we're losing McLaurin?  Huh?

13 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

We never should've signed Fitz.

 

Next Monday, TanDan has to have a meeting with Ron and the Martys. Review the season and what went wrong and how to fix that. Does Ron need to shake up his staff?

Then finally, answer how we plan to upgrade at QB. What are options that we are going to pursue. Free agency? Trade for someone? Draft ?

 

I agree with the latter part, but who should we have gotten this year if not Fitz, the journeyman who tends to make his teams better, when other options simply didn't want to come here?

[Mr. Sinister]

No one on this team should be fired other than the owner

[ntotoro]

16 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Well yeah, it "should" be that way, and the fact that it isn't makes it WAY harder to happen.  That's like saying that physical therapists don't deserve any credit because the guy who's habitually been injured for 20 years should be able to walk in the first place.

And we're losing McLaurin?  Huh?

 

What's Terry's motivation to stay? Money? Over 30 other teams have cash and some of those actually have a QB who can throw the ball without getting him killed.

 

It's also like being in a relationship where one partner doesn't beat or cheat on the other. The bar is set so freaking low, even being able to walk and chew gum is a victory. What kind of expectations are those and why should the fans be please to see the lowest-common-denominator barely met?

[Thirtyfive2seven]

1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

We never should've signed Fitz.

 

 

 

 

100% agree - I even said there is a real possibility that Fitz will get injured.  He's not mobile and at the time, I think it's fair to say that we all thought that the offensive line wasn't a strength.  They appear to be playing above average.  We need someone LIKE Kirk Cousins who can make quick decisions and throw accurate passes.  He made WR's better, offensive line better, and the offense as a whole better.  I don't care about him "choking" in big games.  The team was significantly better on offense when he was leading it.

[drowland]

1 hour ago, ntotoro said:

 

What's Terry's motivation to stay? Money? Over 30 other teams have cash and some of those actually have a QB who can throw the ball without getting him killed.

 

It's also like being in a relationship where one partner doesn't beat or cheat on the other. The bar is set so freaking low, even being able to walk and chew gum is a victory. What kind of expectations are those and why should the fans be please to see the lowest-common-denominator barely met?

 

Terry's not a UFA this off-season.  I hear what you're saying but I think they'll offer him a lucrative extension this summer.  Will he say no, play out his contract and bolt?  Demand a trade?  

[NoCalMike]

It's kind of sad that the last two head coaches began their tenue here having to entertain the owner's delusion about their personally hand-picked QB, essentially sabotaging their first season or a good portion of it, instead of being able to make their own decision about it from Day 1 (even if their head and game film said otherwise. )

 

RG3 at least showed promise as a rookie compared to Haskins who was pretty much a lost cause from the jump. 

 

When the owner does a "house cleaning of sorts" bringing in an all new coaching staff and front office, the directive should never be "ok go make it work with *these* players" rather, go and figure out who on this roster is worth salvaging, who is worth paying to keep around for your future plans with the team.   

 

Everything seems to be done backwards in this organization due to who is ultimately calling the shots.

 

There seems to be a conflict when it comes to rebuilding. I truly believe in the modern era of the NFL you don't need this mythical "5 year plan" to build a team necessarily, however the key factor to any rebuild is finding a legitimate QB.  Whether through the draft or a trading/signing a proven veteran.   This franchise seems to be perpetually stuck in that 6-8 win area because it feels like there is a bigger emphasis on not taking a step or two back in the win column and hopefully getting just the right situation the following season to get 1-2 more wins which grabs a low seed playoff berth, than just cleaning out the roster for draft capital and cap space, going through the pain of a 3-4 win season with a new head coach, and then doing the building.   

Edited January 3, 2022 by NoCalMike

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, drowland said:

 

Terry's not a UFA this off-season.  I hear what you're saying but I think they'll offer him a lucrative extension this summer.  Will he say no, play out his contract and bolt?  Demand a trade?  

He's signed for one more year and then the team could tag him the two years after that. If Washington showed any brains and offered him a good long-term deal this offseason, it'd be kind of financially reckless of him to turn it down. Now, maybe he hates it here so much he would, but it would be a little surprising, 

[Riggo#44]

3 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Next Monday, TanDan has to have a meeting with Ron and the Martys.

I want TanDan no where near anything concerning football operations.

[method man]

7 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You can't be serious.  They run an incredibly conservative offense.  I don't know anyone that watches the Vikings offense and thinks 'damn let me get some of that' from a playcalling/scheming perspective.  Maybe he's handcuffed by how ridiculously conservative Zimmer wants to be, but that's a hell to to the no for me.

The Zimmer handcuffing is absolutely it. When I bake that extra conservatism in, I see Cousins having his best season under a first year OC. They also had guys like Conklin and Osborn emerge this season

[Riggo#44]

I dunno, I'd say your -10 passing yards this past Sunday is a bigger worry than what we're doing...

 

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

This franchise seems to be perpetually stuck in that 6-8 win area because it feels like there is a bigger emphasis on not taking a step or two back in the win column and hopefully getting just the right situation the following season to get 1-2 more wins which grabs a low seed playoff berth, than just cleaning out the roster for draft capital and cap space, going through the pain of a 3-4 win season with a new head coach, and then doing the building.   

This has long been my thought as to why this team has long struggled. The new staff attempts to build upon the previous staffs hodgepodge roster. Fail to do so. They have never tried a full on rebuild. Trade the capital you dont think will be there in 3 years or can help you at that point. Spend the two years clearing out the bad contracts. You fringe players for anything you can really get. JAGs can always be found. 

 

Youre essentially "tanking" but youre doing it by playing young guys plucked off other teams practice squads and guys you hope to fill the bottom half of your roster with guys who want to really stick around helping on STs. Getting 3 wins is better than getting 6 wins. Especially when you dont have a QB. What youre also doing is getting the elite talents at the most important positions. QB LT WR CB Pass Rusher(DE OLB). Those positions impact a teams WL more than others not included. Its no surprise that our best player over the past 25 years is a premier position taken in the top 5. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

It's kind of sad that the last two head coaches began their tenue here having to entertain the owner's delusion about their personally hand-picked QB, essentially sabotaging their first season or a good portion of it, instead of being able to make their own decision about it from Day 1 (even if their head and game film said otherwise. )

 

RG3 at least showed promise as a rookie compared to Haskins who was pretty much a lost cause from the jump. 

 

When the owner does a "house cleaning of sorts" bringing in an all new coaching staff and front office, the directive should never be "ok go make it work with *these* players" rather, go and figure out who on this roster is worth salvaging, who is worth paying to keep around for your future plans with the team.   

 

Everything seems to be done backwards in this organization due to who is ultimately calling the shots.

 

There seems to be a conflict when it comes to rebuilding. I truly believe in the modern era of the NFL you don't need this mythical "5 year plan" to build a team necessarily, however the key factor to any rebuild is finding a legitimate QB.  Whether through the draft or a trading/signing a proven veteran.   This franchise seems to be perpetually stuck in that 6-8 win area because it feels like there is a bigger emphasis on not taking a step or two back in the win column and hopefully getting just the right situation the following season to get 1-2 more wins which grabs a low seed playoff berth, than just cleaning out the roster for draft capital and cap space, going through the pain of a 3-4 win season with a new head coach, and then doing the building.   

I'm a bit of a broken record on this, but the decision Rivera made last year to go for a 7-9 long shot playoff appearance was a classic case of this. The team was 1-5 heading to the trade deadline. They had players who weren't going to/shouldn't be part of the long term (Scherff, Kerrigan, Moses, Darby, Bostic) who could have brought some draft capital and cap savings and we were headed to a historic draft class at QB. Rivera instead threw everyone into a playoff run. Which is kind of understandable in that he's a coach. Coaches and players are trained to think nothing but "win the game" and you wouldn't want any that didn't try to. But a head of an organization should have seen the long-term possibilities of accepting a rebuild for a year and planned accordingly. Of course, Ron didn't. And his miracle long shot run "worked. The team got a 1st round playoff loss, and now have little to build on. 

 

This is why I hated putting a coach, and especially an older retread coach, in charge of personnel. A GM with vision would have used 2020 to build something, not go for a minor moral victory at all costs. 

[SB17]

I’m not on board with firing Ron Rivera.  For one, I’m not sure who would be better who would take the job.  Rivera took the job knowing that he basically had to clean house and change the culture.  Then, he had to deal with the drama of a name change, and there is a lot behind the scenes that we don’t know about with the scandal that NFL looked into, as Tanya became the co-owner and Dan was told not to be involved with day-to-day operations of the team (I heard that right, didn’t I?) and a report by the investigator that never came out - that, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

 

He also went through cancer treatment (and survived) on top of everything else, so I’m willing to cut him a huge amount of slack if he didn’t do something that we fans would have liked him to do during that time.

 

This season hasn’t exactly gone according to script, either.  They couldn’t get the quarterbacks they were targeting, their first-round pick pretty much dissolved, the qb they finally got lasted less than two quarters, injuries galore, and, of course, COVID.

 

Jack Del Rio, though, is a different story.  I’d ask him two questions:  1) Why was the defense so horrendously bad?  2) What are you going to do to fix it?  If the answer to question two is “We’re keeping everything the same,” I’d show him the door.

[Riggo-toni]

Rivera will get 4 years, just like Gruden. Way too many other embarrassments to try and add on coaching search. July 9 was Jeff Fisher day...July 10 will be Rivera day.

[Commander -JB-]

Just checking in to remind all readers that Dan Snyder is still the Owner.  Again, Dan Snyder is still the owner 

[Burgold]

If Zimmer is fired I wonder if he'd be a good replacement for Jack Del Rio.

[Warhead36]

55 minutes ago, Burgold said:

If Zimmer is fired I wonder if he'd be a good replacement for Jack Del Rio.

I heard he's retiring.

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I heard he's retiring.

Zimmer or Del Rio

[Wyvern]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, Rufus T Firefly said:

I'm a bit of a broken record  on this....

 

...This is why I hated putting a coach, and especially an older retread coach, in charge of personnel. A GM with vision would have used 2020 to build something, not go for a minor moral victory at all costs. 

Wow!  Another "Hindsight" view we needed to 'tank' again in 2020. 

 

Hey Rufus, what exactly were the ..."at all costs", you cited?  ... that Washington players and coaches actually tried to win their playoff spot in 2020?  ...That the WFT players and coaches weren't willing to roll over and lose?  That they should have simply agreed to tank, so that everyone on the team could then believe that the new culture Ron was building within Washington was still just another "Loser" culture, and that they should just look forward to being replaced by new players in 2021?

 

Rufus, I consider you to be a long-standing member of the ES community, and I think you are always making interesting posts.  But I part ways with you (and others) about calling for  Washington to tank for a better draft position. 

 

I feel that any team building a winning team culture, a supportive locker-room chemistry, and a "never-say-die" mindset will attract better FAs, and will encourage all the players on the roster to keep battling. 

 

Giving up on a winning mindset and tanking in hopes of getting  a better draft position, doesnt always yield the best results -- because:

 

1. To make major leaps through drafting, that means  Washington's scouting has to be really good -- and candidly, draft history hints there might be valid reasons to question the quality of the WFT scouting network. 

2.  Even if the draft did bring in good talent,  the WFT coaches need to know how to develop that new incoming talent -- history suggests that decent developmental results fostered by WFT coaching have been 'mixed.'

3.  Newly incoming rookies need to avoid being tainted by any pre-existing "loser" team culture's mindset from the veterans still left on the team..  Otherwise, those rookies might decide to start 'mailing in' their performances, until they can move to another franchise which actually has a winning tradition.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Wyvern

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Wow!  Another "Hindsight" view we needed to 'tank' again in 2020. 

 

Hey Rufus, what exactly were the ..."at all costs", you cited?  ... that Washington players and coaches actually tried to win their playoff spot in 2020?  ...That the WFT players and coaches weren't willing to roll over and lose?  That they should have simply agreed to tank, so that everyone on the team could then believe that the new culture Ron was building within Washington was still just another "Loser" culture, and that they should just look forward to being replaced by new players in 2021?

 

Rufus, I consider you to be a long-standing member of the ES community, and I think you are always making interesting posts.  But I part ways with you (and others) about calling for  Washington to tank for a better draft position. 

 

I feel that any team building a winning team culture, a supportive locker-room chemistry, and a "never-say-die" mindset will attract better FAs, and will encourage all the players on the roster to keep battling. 

 

Giving up on a winning mindset and tanking in hopes of getting  a better draft position, doesnt always yield the best results -- because:

 

1. To make major leaps through drafting, that means  Washington's scouting has to be really good -- and candidly, draft history hints there might be valid reasons to question the quality of the WFT scouting network. 

2.  Even if the draft did bring in good talent,  the WFT coaches need to know how to develop that new incoming talent -- history suggests that decent developmental results fostered by WFT coaching have been 'mixed.'

3.  Newly incoming rookies need to avoid being tainted by any pre-existing "loser" team culture's mindset from the veterans still left on the team..  Otherwise, those rookies might decide to start 'mailing in' their performances, until they can move to another franchise which actually has a winning tradition.

 

 

 

 

I found it utterly fascinating that you quote a post where I say explicitly that coaches and players do, and should, try to win and then go off on how I wanted them to try to lose. There's no reason I would be interesting in a conversation that starts that way. 

[KDawg]

So I think the plan was Ron is the HC for a bit and then takes over Football Operations. I still think that’s the plan. 
 

In other words, I think Rivera is going to be here for a long time sans Snyder going… well… Snyder. 
 

I wouldn’t fire Rivera. You aren’t getting anyone of the quality of him. I understand he hasn’t done the greatest coaching job but the respect he brings to the franchise is the only thing stopping total irrelevance. With him we’re only at like 92% irrelevance.

[Wyvern]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, Rufus T Firefly said:

But a head of an organization should have seen the long-term possibilities of accepting a rebuild for a year and planned accordingly.

This above text is what I reacted to.

Rufus, as I mentioned before, I respect your posts... But it as I read this particular post, it seemed you felt the decision-makers in the WFT front office should have dismantled the Gruden roster and accepted how that meant tanking the 2020 season, in hopes of rebuilding in 2021.  It seemed you felt Rivera was wrong to try winning with the hand he was dealt (plus the new 2020 draft picks) as he figured out who would fit with the team he was trying to build.

 

Considering the circumstances, I thought Ron had a practical approach for 2020, but it was hindered by how COVID was impacting player evaluation and getting a true sense on Ron's rebuilding the existing team along his plans. .... And, sadly,  2021 turned out to be a very unlucky year for the WFT, with all the injuries to its key players, coupled with the large number of COVID quarantines on WFT players during the stretch run.  IMHO, 2021 was a bad year to assess much of anything

 

BTW, this is not intended to be a conversation.  This was my final post to you on the topic; and per my traditional procedure, it's you that gets the last say.