Time to Fire Ron, Jack & Wright

[Warhead36]

25 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I think some of our expectations are out of wack. We are talking underrated/overrated/championships/playoffs when the fact is, this is a franchise that can't even challenge for a wild card spot with any kind of consistency.  This is not a roster where a coach is going to come in and "whip them into shape" for a magical run.  Half of Rivera's first season was basically a waste of time trying to see if Haskins had anything to offer, and this season the QB they wanted to start went down on his first series.   That doesn't even get into all the other injuries and covid protocol issues that have made this a mess.

 

Rivera shouldn't be shielded from criticism when it's deserved, but if say a guy like Gruden was still here in 2020 and 2021, the team likely would have given up before Thanksgiving.

 

We need to stop acting like a coach is going to come in and unlock all this unseen potential.  This team needs to become a regular 9-11 game winner before those next level moves are made.  I could take or leave Rivera as the coach to take them team over the top, but I think he is plenty capable, given time and a better roster, of getting the team to the playoffs on a regular basis and once they hit that wall, we can talk about whether a different coach would be better.  Sort of like the Norv Turrner/Marty dynamic in San Diego when they got to a certain level and stalled over and over.

Agreed.

 

I think Rivera needs to be for us what Jeff Fisher was for the Rams. Restore them to at least respectability and bring some stability into their franchise. THEN after he gets stale you go out and get the next Sean McVay type.

[DWinzit]

Ron needs to step out of his comfort zone and look for a new DC

[wit33]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

I think some of our expectations are out of wack. We are talking underrated/overrated/championships/playoffs when the fact is, this is a franchise that can't even challenge for a wild card spot with any kind of consistency.  This is not a roster where a coach is going to come in and "whip them into shape" for a magical run.  Half of Rivera's first season was basically a waste of time trying to see if Haskins had anything to offer, and this season the QB they wanted to start went down on his first series.   That doesn't even get into all the other injuries and covid protocol issues that have made this a mess.

 

Rivera shouldn't be shielded from criticism when it's deserved, but if say a guy like Gruden was still here in 2020 and 2021, the team likely would have given up before Thanksgiving.

 

We need to stop acting like a coach is going to come in and unlock all this unseen potential.  This team needs to become a regular 9-11 game winner before those next level moves are made.  I could take or leave Rivera as the coach to take them team over the top, but I think he is plenty capable, given time and a better roster, of getting the team to the playoffs on a regular basis and once they hit that wall, we can talk about whether a different coach would be better.  Sort of like the Norv Turrner/Marty dynamic in San Diego when they got to a certain level and stalled over and over.

The QB situation was/is such a mess that it makes it extremely difficult to come any sort of conclusions to date. 
 

One issue for me is not having established an identity or brand so far. I guess we can say they play hard consistently. Not sure what WASHINGTON is good at on defense or offense. A QB plays an obvious big role in what an offense can become on offense. So we’ll see what this off season brings. 
 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed.

 

I think Rivera needs to be for us what Jeff Fisher was for the Rams. Restore them to at least respectability and bring some stability into their franchise. THEN after he gets stale you go out and get the next Sean McVay type.

 

 

I like the prospects of Ron letting the next McVay types develop underneath him. I was worried early on, but it seems he really empowers his coordinators, even a young one in Turner, who’s still growing and learning. Fisher seemed to want to control it all. 

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed.

 

I think Rivera needs to be for us what Jeff Fisher was for the Rams. Restore them to at least respectability and bring some stability into their franchise. THEN after he gets stale you go out and get the next Sean McVay type.

That's pretty much my thought. His job is to wash the **** off this circus tent and make us a respectable. 500 franchise that occasionally wins 10 games, but never 4.

[NoCalMike]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

The QB situation was/is such a mess that it makes it extremely difficult to come any sort of conclusions to date. 
 

One issue for me is not having established an identity or brand so far. I guess we can say they play hard consistently. Not sure what WASHINGTON is good at on defense or offense. A QB plays an obvious big role in what an offense can become on offense. So we’ll see what this off season brings. 
 

 

 

I like the prospects of Ron letting the next McVay types develop underneath him. I was worried early on, but it seems he really empowers his coordinators, even a young one in Turner, who’s still growing and learning. Fisher seemed to want to control it all. 

 

It sort of feels like to me the coaches are still figuring this stuff out.  They drafted Gibson to be the workhorse RB, who was a WR.  I don't know how/why you do that without acknowledging it is going to take a few seasons to even get him performing like an actual RB.  Then on top of that Scott Turner barely even draws anything up for Gibson that would utilize the skillsets he already possesses.  It is hard to have an identity when every week there is a new player in the skill position.  I honestly think we have more of a modern style of personnel on offense but a more traditional style coordinator.  

[Koolblue13]

Gibson was never meant to be a workhorse back. Turner doesn't want to run a run heavy offense. Our line is decimated with injury and our QB is garbage. It's the only offense we can run.

[88Comrade2000]

On many levels; Ron is trying to recreate Carolina. That’s why he will ultimately fail.

[JSSkinz]

Ron must feel confident that he'll be here for all 5 years of his contract, coaches taking over poor teams don't typically wait until their 3rd or 4th year to go get a QB when they have no viable solution in house.  Its just an odd way to try to turn a team around, not saying its impossible but I think its makes it much tougher and the fact we missed on solid QB prospects in the last 2 drafts to fill other positions and those picks are failing really stacks the deck against him going forward.

 

I think has to make some serious strides in year 3, he's a good coach and his coaching isn't the problem, the problem is all the misses by the FO in the draft and free agency, that Chase pick will haunt us for a decade if he ends up just being just a solid player and not the unstoppable force he was made out to be.

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

10 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Ron must feel confident that he'll be here for all 5 years of his contract, coaches taking over poor teams don't typically wait until their 3rd or 4th year to go get a QB when they have no viable solution in house.  Its just an odd way to try to turn a team around, not saying its impossible but I think its makes it much tougher and the fact we missed on solid QB prospects in the last 2 drafts to fill other positions and those picks are failing really stacks the deck against him going forward.

 

I think has to make some serious strides in year 3, he's a good coach and his coaching isn't the problem, the problem is all the misses by the FO in the draft and free agency, that Chase pick will haunt us for a decade if he ends up just being just a solid player and not the unstoppable force he was made out to be.

 

 

He may think he will be here the full contract but it depends on how TanDan feels. Dan did say he will be more involved. When and what that means; bound to be sone conflict with what Ron was planning.

 

I think Ron botched this from day 1. He should’ve told Dan that while would give Dwayne a chance; he would bring a qb in to compete for the job. Alex should’ve been cut; despite the cap cost.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Rdskns2000

[lavar1156]

Del Rio should be replaced. Ron is an average coach at best. Not sure who we could get that would be better. 

[Renegade7]

I jus want to add to my concern of replacing Rivera.  Theres a pattern in Snyder hires i didn't notice until recently:

 

Marty - Respected Coach

Spurrier - Bamma

Gibbs - Respected Coach

Zorn - Bamma

Shanahan - Respected Coach

Gruden - Bamma

Rivera - Respected Coach

 

I'll give yall one guess as to which is coming next if Rivera is fired. 

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I jus want to add to my concern of replacing Rivera.  Theres a pattern in Snyder hires i didn't notice until recently:

 

Marty - Respected Coach

Spurrier - Bamma

Gibbs - Respected Coach

Zorn - Bamma

Shanahan - Respected Coach

Gruden - Bamma

Rivera - Respected Coach

 

I'll give yall one guess as to which is coming next if Rivera is fired. 

 

 

A respected coach? (He asked hopefully.....)

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

A respected coach? (He asked hopefully.....)

 

This isnt hard, Cooley.

 

The coaches i have labeled as "respected" have either won coach of the year, a super bowl, or both in their career as part of the reasoning for saying that. 

 

The bammas have not, not even close, and were never head coaches in the NFL ever again or before they were hired here.

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This isnt hard, Cooley.

 

The coaches i have labeled as "respected" have either won coach of the year, a super bowl, or both in their career as part of the reasoning for saying that. 

 

The bammas have not, not even close, and were never head coaches in the NFL ever again or before they were hired here.

Guess you missed my joke. I was joking by saying my guess is the type that’s coming next if rivera is fired will be a respected coach, even though it obviously doesn’t fit the pattern. Hence why i said “He asked hopefully”. 
 

i didnt need an explanation. 

[CjSuAvE22]

I dont care how "respected" Ron Rivera is, the Defense has played poorly this year and he needs to do something in the offseason to fix it, it should not be taken lightly by any fans supporting this team just because hes "respected". As for Rivera as ive stated before hes just a meh kinda football coach imo, hes not bad hes not great (3 winning seasons out of 11 isnt very good) and i dont think we will see much improvement under him, then again with Snyder at the top of the food chain i dont think anyone can overcome the malice of this organization. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by CjSuAvE22

[Koolblue13]

I figured it would take a minimum of 3 years to right this ship. Making the playoffs was ultimately unhealthy for this team, since it wasn't built to sustain success. 

 

I think this is a pretty pivotal offseason/season coming up next. 

[Renegade7]

27 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Guess you missed my joke. I was joking by saying my guess is the type that’s coming next if rivera is fired will be a respected coach, even though it obviously doesn’t fit the pattern. Hence why i said “He asked hopefully”. 
 

i didnt need an explanation. 

 

I jus got pissed off at work and misread your post, my bad, logging off

[El Mexican]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:53 AM, TheGreatBuzz said:

Already done that.

 

Nice. I've done the same. Maybe some other will join us.

[El Mexican]

5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I figured it would take a minimum of 3 years to right this ship. Making the playoffs was ultimately unhealthy for this team, since it wasn't built to sustain success. 

 

I think this is a pretty pivotal offseason/season coming up next. 

 

Seems we've done this for most of two decades since Snyder bought the team.

 

When was the last time you said "yeah, this team is loaded"? Not with aging superstars, but fundamentally sound in most areas, I mean.

 

For me the first year Synder was around here, which means it wasn't really his team (Brad, Davis, Centers, Tre, Jansen, Raymer, Big Daddy, Marco, Dana, Champ, D. Green, et al). Now that's a serious roster that only ever needed a bit more time to gel and a few additions here and there to really hit it.

 

But we all know what happened next...

Edited December 28, 2021 by El Mexican

[Wildbunny]

19 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

Seems we've done this for most of two decades since Snyder bought the team.

Something like that yeah.

 

I'm not sure I get how firing Jack, Jason, Ron and the waterboy kid will get us out of this circle...

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I jus want to add to my concern of replacing Rivera.  Theres a pattern in Snyder hires i didn't notice until recently:

 

Marty - Respected Coach

Spurrier - Bamma

Gibbs - Respected Coach

Zorn - Bamma

Shanahan - Respected Coach

Gruden - Bamma

Rivera - Respected Coach

 

I'll give yall one guess as to which is coming next if Rivera is fired. 

 

 

 

If they fire Rivera before he finishes his 5 years.    I'll say this with a lot of confidence.  Rivera is respected around the league.  They will see it as another respected coach failing there.  The job was already seen as toxic.  Some thought it was wild that Ron took that job.   Doing this would double down on why Dan is such a bad owner and likely have us shopping in the Jim Zorn pool as for the next coach.  Some forget but heck even Spags turned down this job years ago and would rather be an assistant coach than come to this cesspool and that was before things really dove deeper down the ditch.

 

I guess from a masochistic standpoint, stare at the car wreck, it would be a fascinating move.  It would be Dan having his house on fire and he decided instead of trying to put it out to add gasoline to it and let the flames burn even brighter.

 

We'd likely be fishing in the desperate pond for the next coach.  Dudes that no one else would want.  Really obscure coordinators or retread coaches like Herm Edwards that no one else would hire.

 

I'd think their 45,000 crowds per game would diminish even lower.    It would be wild to see how low Dan could take this circus.  Firing Ron before his contract is up would be a wild way to see how crazy the circus could actually get IMO and obviously its already crazy.  But this IMO would push it to even more absurd heights of crazy. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

20 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

It sort of feels like to me the coaches are still figuring this stuff out.  They drafted Gibson to be the workhorse RB, who was a WR.  I don't know how/why you do that without acknowledging it is going to take a few seasons to even get him performing like an actual RB.  Then on top of that Scott Turner barely even draws anything up for Gibson that would utilize the skillsets he already possesses.  It is hard to have an identity when every week there is a new player in the skill position.  I honestly think we have more of a modern style of personnel on offense but a more traditional style coordinator.  

This is a good post. Turner is such a mystery to me bc in some categories he really gets it and follows modern trends. He goes through long stretches where he uses motion and PA passing near the top of the league, but I don’t know if it’s dumb luck or if he’s actually aware of the analytical advantage. I do highly doubt our analytics staff is very large or influential, if it exists at all. But they could be foundational principles that he believes in for whatever reason, which would be good. 
 

But then in other ways Turner utilizes ancient thought processes. You can tell he thinks you need to set up the run to use PA, sometimes. Or game plans it that way regardless of what he believes. But you do not, and every statistic that matters will tell you that. And any really smart football person who is on top of the modern game should know that. 
 

Then, on the odd occasion that he utilizes the passing game on 1st down (a huge analytical win), if it’s incomplete he will often then run the ball on second down (one of the very very least efficient plays in all of football—truly awful) and you can tell it’s bc he’s afraid that if he passes again and it’s incomplete AGAIN (which inevitably leads to another pass on 3rd and 10), the defense will go right back on the field and he’ll be accused of abandoning the run by passing 3 times in a row. But the narrative shouldn’t matter—running the ball on 2nd and 10 is the worst thing you can reasonably do after an incomplete pass on 1st down, period. You can’t avoid it all the time and it can be situational but in general, it’s a bad decision driven more by fear of the almighty post-game narrative than by wanting to win. So he is either covering his ass at the expense of increasing our chances to win the game, or he’s ignorant of the percentages. I don’t know which it is but either option is bad. 
 

Moving on to the next point. We roster such horizontally and vertically explosive players as Gibson, Samuel, McKissic, hell even Dyami to a degree that all have positional versatility and flexibility. We utilize motion at a high rate. But yet we rarely design plays for these guys (I know we haven’t really seen Samuel in the scheme yet) that really stretch the field horizontally or vertically—we spend a lot of time running up the interior from bunched formations with our former WR-turned-RB. It makes no sense, especially given that spreading everything out would not only utilize Heinicke’s mobility more, it would give him a better chance to read the field since he’s short. 
 

So…Turner does some things well, and guys ARE being schemed open a good amount of the time (maybe not as creatively as under Shanahan, McVay, and Gruden in that descending order) even if Heinicke isn’t seeing them a lot of the time. And over the last two seasons our OL has held up pretty well considering our injuries and COVID issues and general lack of blue chip talent there. It will be impossible to truly evaluate a guy like Turner without seeing him with a great QB prospect, and he follows some analytical principles some times (enough of the time that I don’t think it’s a coincidence)—but I’m just not seeing the creativity and smarts and balls I’d like to see from a young OC. I don’t think he’s innovating on what he learned from his more old school father enough—but again, it’s hard to say bc I’d expect he wants to do the Norv thing and take more vertical shots and he hasn’t had the QB that could do that, so he may be floundering not being able to run what he ideally wants to. 
 

This was a lot of words to say that idk what to think of Turner until we see him with a real talent at QB, but I do think we could upgrade and not risk losing the next Shanahan/McVay. I doubt we do it, but it wouldn’t hurt us minus losing scheme stability and system familiarity. We could do worse but we certainly could do better in a vacuum—most of the guys I’d be 100% certain are upgrades are either only going to move if they get a HC job, or wouldn’t want to take a potentially lame duck contract here to make a lateral move under Rivera who will be in his 3rd year without an answer at QB during the hiring period. 
 

Tough situation but I wouldn’t rank it a top-5 problem this team has to resolve in order to win. Probably not even top-10 if I’m being honest. A QB has a high probability to fix/improve Turner just as it fixes so many other things.

 

There's just no way to know how often Turner is making suboptimal decisions in order to attempt to compensate for/cover for/hide our QB situation. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by ConnSKINS26

[Warhead36]

37 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

This was a lot of words to say that idk what to think of Turner until we see him with a real talent at QB

100% this.

[Koolblue13]

Totally all those words

[MrJL]

if we had anywhere approaching our proper roster  Sunday the game wouldn't have looked like that, so I don't know what would be gained from firing people