Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[veteranskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Couldn't make out so much what Keim was trying to say in the last tweet, as for not having to be at 19.  In the past, he's alluded to they might trade up in the first if an opportunity arises.  I didn't get the impression that they'd be inclined to take a flier later in the draft via other comments if they signed a veteran FA.  But i am backing off that point now.  Not that Keim is never wrong but I trust him more than anyone who covers the team.  I get the impression from his tweets that anything is possible in the draft at QB now. 

I trust Keim more than Sheehan.  Sheehan was really wrong on Haskins.   Once it became apparent Haskins was on his way out then Kevin shifted his stance on him but by then

it was too late.  He kept saying the Skins organization was not giving him a fair chance at starting, then when he played he said Haskins was still learning and we had to give him

more time to grow.   He has never really stepped up and admitted that he was wrong on his overall evaluation of Haskins.  I am sure if Haskins improves with the Steelers he will

say more positive statements about Dwayne.

[skinny21]

Given RR has said the concern with giving up assets for a qb is needing to still be able to surround them with talent, you have to wonder how much that calculus has changed.  

Not that I think we’ve got much of a shot at trading up for one, but 1) we’ve got a lot of talent all over the roster, 2) there’s a chance we add comp picks down the road depending on how things play out with Fitzpatrick, Scherff, Allen, Ioannidis, and Logan Thomas.  

Don’t see it happening with how many teams need qbs and have better draft position than us, but I’m slightly less certain now.  

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

That's kind of what I was thinking. Mariotta intrigued me, but not for draft picks.

 

I liked Fitzpatrick and Mariota the best among the options.  Fitzpatrick being the best QB IMO among the options.  Mariota my favorite reclamation project but only if it were for a cheap price and not for the escalators that exist in his contract now.

 

Darnold to me seemed crazy because he's both a reclamation project (and my least favorite among them) with a likely hefty trade price.  It will be interesting for me to see how Darnold does.  I've spent more time watching him than any of the potential off season targets and my take is he will be the same bust he's been thus far.  It wouldn't surprise me if he improves elsewhere but I think the verdict on him career wise will end up "meh".

Edited March 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I trust Keim more than Sheehan.  Sheehan was really wrong on Haskins.   Once it became apparent Haskins was on his way out then Kevin shifted his stance on him but by then

it was too late.  He kept saying the Skins organization was not giving him a fair chance at starting, then when he played he said Haskins was still learning and we had to give him

more time to grow.   He has never really stepped up and admitted that he was wrong on his overall evaluation of Haskins.  I am sure if Haskins improves with the Steelers he will

say more positive statements about Dwayne.

 

Sheehan acutally did admit he was wrong on Haskins.  He went on a weird journey with Haskins.  He didn't like Haskins coming out of the draft.  Cooley didn't like him either.  But Sheehan changed his mind after his rookie season.  Cooley then from what I recall was somewhat mixed and turned negative pretty fast last season on Haskins' play.  It took longer for Sheehan to get there.

 

Sheehan and Keim have totally different jobs.  Keim is a reporter.  He doesn't really insert his own opinion much but reports what he thinks they are going to do based on his sources.  Sheehan's job is to entertain and that includes giving his opinion.

 

I like them both but for totally different reasons albeit Sheehan's relentless plugging of Darnold I found annoying. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Fitzpatrick and Mariota the best among the options.  Fitzpatrick being the best QB IMO among the options.  Mariota my favorite reclamation project but only if it were for a cheap price and not for the escaltors that exist in his contract now.

 

Darnold to me seemed crazy because he's both a reclamation project (and my least favorite among them) with a likely hefty trade price.  It will be interesting for me to see how Darnold does.  I've spent more time watching him than any of the potential off season targets and my take is he will be the same bust he's been thus far.  It wouldn't surprise me if he improves elsewhere but I think the verdict on him career wise will end up "meh".

 

Totally agree on Darnold, I can't believe some fans were ready part with a high pick for that guy.  He is a bust, it happens all the time.  

[mhd24]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Fitzpatrick and Mariota the best among the options.  Fitzpatrick being the best QB IMO among the options.  Mariota my favorite reclamation project but only if it were for a cheap price and not for the escaltors that exist in his contract now.

 

Darnold to me seemed crazy because he's both a reclamation project (and my least favorite among them) with a likely hefty trade price.  It will be interesting for me to see how Darnold does.  I've spent more time watching him than any of the potential off season targets and my take is he will be the same bust he's been thus far.  It wouldn't surprise me if he improves elsewhere but I think the verdict on him career wise will end up "meh".

 

 

If you were Sheehan, you would think Darnold is destined to be in the HOF and deserves to have the #19 traded for him.  I like his podcast, but his man-crush on Darnold has made it un-listenable.  His QB takes are just wretched sometimes.  He was calling Haskins a "gamer" and top 15 potential.  I can't wait till Darnold is traded for low value to hear his reaction.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Totally agree on Darnold, I can't believe some fans were ready part with a high pick for that guy.  He is a bust, it happens all the time.  

 

IMO he doesn't see the field well and makes too many dumb decisions. And his accuracy isn't hot.  it wouild be one thing if I was some odd outlier on this but multiple Jet reporters who covered him has said the same.  And it was an issue for him in college too in the mix of his attributes. 

 

When Fitzpatrick throws a pick, you can see the method to the madness mostly.  He was throwing a contested ball or maybe threw it too fast before the receiver hit their break.  With Darnold some of his throws look so dumb that it hits me that he's not a dumb dude but he just didn't see the safety cutting in, etc.  i had the same vibe watching Rosen.  I don't think either make good decisions.    

 

With someone like Fitzpatrick who throws his share of picks or Favre back in the day they are gunslinger type of throws.   I can understand that.  And when they are on their game (Favre obviously >>>> Fitzpatrick) they make enough plays to make up for their turnovers.  Darnold IMO does not.

 

10 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

If you were Sheehan, you would think Darnold is destined to be in the HOF and deserves to have the #19 traded for him.  I like his podcast, but his man-crush on Darnold has made it un-listenable.  His QB takes are just wretched sometimes.  He was calling Haskins a "gamer" and top 15 potential.  I can't wait till Darnold is traded for low value to hear his reaction.

 

I gave him a little break on Haskins because he intensely disliked him as a pick at 15, he wasn't a fan.  He just got carried away with the 1.5 games 2 years ago -- the Philly and NY one.

 

Yeah on Darnold he was insufferable.   But overall I like Sheehan a lot.  He's entertaining.  He's also a true WFT fan and a hardcore one at that.  Many of the ones who cover our team aren't WFT fans or they claim they once were but aren't so anymore. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yeah I'm a Sheehan fan as well, one of my favorites on that station. I like how he's a big Terps guy.  

Edited March 18, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Warhead36]

Sheehan is a fan like us and like some people on this board he chooses some strange hills to die on.

[rumplestilskin]

Good thing we didn't sell the farm for "Rub and Tug" Watson. He is facing some serious fire right now.

 

[HigSkin]

Joey T. on The Junkies this morning said there'd be a true competition at QB this offseason, something RR believes there needs to be.  He said he wouldn't necessarily hand the starting job to Fitz.  They track throws, chemistry, comprehension of offense, work ethic, etc.  They needed a vet in the QB room and he likes Fitz for that but said there are too many unknowns yet to just anoint him the starter.

 

Also said he doesn't think RR knows yet whether they'll draft a QB.  It all depends on how the guys fall or who they may like in later rounds, if they even do covet someone.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by HigSkin

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As i told you previously my take on it is if he's as good as some of the comments you've made about him - I recall you saying Mahomes like elite ability to make plays off script -- if so, my take is teams would have no problem paying a first let alone a 2nd. 
 

 

Yes, I do feel one of his major traits and huge reason why teams would be interested at this stage is due to his off-script ability. Without it he’d be headed towards being a back up and considered undesirable as a starter, but most likely he’ll have another chance at becoming someone’s franchise QB. 

 

And yes, his movement in and out of the pocket reminds me of Mahomes, that’s where the comparison ends though  
 

 

Quote

 

As for Cooley what dissappointed me is he admitted in two different segments he didn't go back and watch him.  Cooley's film reviews are really good.  Maybe he did study him now, I don't know.  But i did hear him admit that he didn't do it in previous segments.   

 

Who knows?  You might end up right about Darnold.  I can never assess with 100% assurance about any player and that goes double with QBs.  For all I know, maybe Darnold does play like a stud next year.  But, I'll say this with assurance.  If teams now saw Darnold as a stud -- the compensation would not scare them off.  Teams are desperate for QBs.  The Bears just offered three #1's a 3rd and 2 players for Wilson and got shot down.   Stafford just went for two first rounders and change.  If teams saw Darnold, at 23 years old, as good or likely a franchise QB, they'd have no issue paying a first rounder let alone a 2nd rounder for him.

 

I’m not pounding the table for the dude, I’ve only watched 30min or so of cut ups, don’t have a strong opinion. I’m an absolute sucker for off-script ability and that’s a great deal as to why I’m putting any value on him. 

 

Quote

 

My bet is some desperate team ultimately does roll the dice and gives the Jets a 2nd a change and at least matches the Rosen deal.  My bet is that team will be dissapointed.   Will see. 

The Rosen deal was different due to him having years left on his rookie deal. If it was Darnold after year 1 the Jets would’ve gotten two 1s or a great package—a great deal of his value being his pedigree and contract. If Darnold had two years left on his deal a first wouldve already been offered. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Yes, I do feel one of his major traits and huge reason why teams would be interested at this stage is due to his off-script ability. Without it he’d be headed towards being a back up and considered undesirable as a starter, but most likely he’ll have another chance at becoming someone’s franchise QB. 

 

 

Making off script plays and roll outs are his thing.  I disagree that he's elite at it but he's certainly good at it.  And the Mahomes comparison on that front to me doesn't fully apply because part of Mahomes' magic IMO is off platform throws where he looks like a Major League short stop the way he can throw off balance and from weird arm angles.  Darnold IMO has a moment or two on that front but that isn't his gig.  His gig is dodging defenders in the pocket and roll outs.

 

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I’m not pounding the table for the dude, I’ve only watched 30min or so of cut ups, don’t have a strong opinion. I’m an absolute sucker for off-script ability and that’s a great deal as to why I’m putting any value on him. 

 

 

OK.  Yeah I'd say though highlights are almost impossible to judge any player because you are just saying his best plays.  For me with Darnold the reason why I am out on him is accuracy-decision making.  I am not saying with total confidence I'll be right about him.  But I've seen enough where I didn't like him.  Will see.

 

I recall you telling me in a post I should back off of Darnold because I might be bracing for a miserable off season if they got him.  Point taken.  Fortunately, they took the dude I wanted.  Fitz was who I thought was the best Qb among our options (Mariota was my favorite roll of the dice guy) so my off season is actually a lot of fun now.

 

I know you are big into intangibles.  Fitzpatrick is oozing with intangibles.  Alex is a chill, super nice guy, sneakingly funny, confident, likeable and smart.  Fitz I'd describe as just a louder version of the same thing.  They are different personalities but teammates love them both.

 

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

The Rosen deal was different due to him having years left on his rookie deal. If it was Darnold after year 1 the Jets would’ve gotten two 1s or a great package—a great deal of his value being his pedigree and contract. If Darnold had two years left on his deal a first wouldve already been offered. 

 

Will see.  Dudes like Breer expect them to at least match the Rosen deal.   What works for Darnold is he's considered as a QB with more upside than Rosen.  But at the same time you have a longer sample of meh play.  With Rosen the sample size was smaller so there was more mystery. 

 

The problem Darnold has IMO is there is a lot of crappy play on tape. They would have gotten more I agree (but for a different reason than your point) if they traded him the season before -- shorter sample size and he played better that year.  the third season from Darnold which was crappy I think hurts his cause. 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Darth Tater]

4 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I trust Keim more than Sheehan.  Sheehan was really wrong on Haskins.   Once it became apparent Haskins was on his way out then Kevin shifted his stance on him but by then

it was too late.  He kept saying the Skins organization was not giving him a fair chance at starting, then when he played he said Haskins was still learning and we had to give him

more time to grow.   He has never really stepped up and admitted that he was wrong on his overall evaluation of Haskins.  I am sure if Haskins improves with the Steelers he will

say more positive statements about Dwayne.

It is kind of sad to me that now I have to hope Haskins stays a bust.  After this relatively successful season, I was hoping that Dan would at least be smart enough to realize that all or successful seasons since 1999 have much to do with him staying out of the way.  Haskins having real success might encourage Dan to believe he is a football guy and get him to try to involve himself again.

 

1999, Dan has just bought the team. He was heavily involved on the business side of this takeover.

2001, no playoffs and a bad start but the future looked bright until Dan got involved again.

2005 and 2007, Joe Gibbs was a god to him so Joe pretty much got to do what he wanted.

2012, most involved success year for Dan but still pretty much staid out except for RG3 who was only a question mark at the time due to our having to trade up.

2015, Dan hires Scott.  I think this is the one move that gave Gruden a pair to make his best personnel decision (sitting RG3 for Cousins).

2020, Dan has "issues" that keep him out.

 

Many of our big fails have also often been because of Dan's involvement in football ops:

Haskins

RG3

Malcomb

OBC

2000

 

Funny, during Dan's tenure, our first picks that were at least decent though not necessarily due to him:

Champ (DB)

Samuels (OL)

Arrington (LB)

Taylor (DB)

Rogers (DB)

McIntosh (LB)

Landry (DB)

Orakpo (LB)

Kerrigan (LB)

Williams (OL)

Scherff (OL)

Allen (DL)

Payne (DL)

Sweat (DL)

Young (DL)

 

Fails during Dan's tenure though not necessarily due to him:

Gardner (WR)

Ramsey (QB)

Thomas (WR)

RG3 (QB)

Docston (WR)

Haskins (QB)

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Est.1974]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, Warhead36 said:

Vet QBs don't come cheap. Even Ryan Fitzpatrick is making $8 Million this year.

May have been the first mention on Fitz in this epic thread....

[Skinsinparadise]

So Keim thinks QB could be on the table early, Standig saying he'd be stunned if they take a QB in the first.  Both of them are fairly plugged in. 

 

they do both agree LT could be the pick in the first. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So Keim thinks QB could be on the table early, Standig saying he'd be stunned if they take a QB in the first.  Both of them are fairly plugged in. 

 

they do both agree LT could be the pick in the first. 

There have been a number of hints towards them going at someone outside the first round. They must have their eye on a particular player

LT def makes the most sense in the first

[Warhead36]

I think if a QB falls to the 12 ish range we could see a trade up. I don't think there is any way we give up the farm to move into the top 10.

[mhd24]

I think 4 qbs are going early.  Jags (obviously), Jets, Atlanta, Carolina, and Denver could all take them.  Plus, NE and SF could also take QBs.  

[Anselmheifer]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31086798/houston-texans-qb-deshaun-watson-accused-sexual-assault-third-civil-lawsuit
 

It looks like things are about to get really ugly for Watson. Good thing we didn’t trade Chase Young plus picks. Records forwarded to the police now. 
 

I wonder if this actually speeds him out the door next offseason. 
 

Edit: 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/03/18/lawyer-claims-he-has-nine-clients-with-claims-against-deshaun-watson/

 

Now 9 cases filed against him. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Anselmheifer

[Koolblue13]

We're definitely getting the happier ending than Houston is.

[mudhog]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So Keim thinks QB could be on the table early, Standig saying he'd be stunned if they take a QB in the first.  Both of them are fairly plugged in. 

 

they do both agree LT could be the pick in the first. 

It's funny, but after reading the Keim tweet, and a tweet from @HogsHaven, both in the ES draft page, it seems that RR has now freed up quite a few picks for draft capital to move up and grab a QB this year. Neither of them just came right out and said it, but implied that Fitz and Ken Zampese might be the perfect fit to coach and mentor said QB. And that Fitz could be around longer if it took longer. Just what I gathered from reading tweets. I could be way off.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

There have been a number of hints towards them going at someone outside the first round. They must have their eye on a particular player

LT def makes the most sense in the first

 

From my observation it seems all over the place depending on who is talking about it.  If I had to pick early or late based on what's being said, I think its been a little more buzz about early. But overall I don't think they are bent on doing it.  Feels like its sort of a Zen approach -- depends on how the board falls, the price, etc.

 

Rivera in his press conference almost seemed to be bemoaning the idea that he didn't expect a Qb would fall to 19.  He said something to the effect of if they like a QB they assume teams picking ahead of them like the same QB.  Among other things, it gives me the impression that they might be willing to leapfrog over other teams. 

 

If Schefter is right about don't expect fallers among the top 4, sounds like they likely have to trade into the top 5 if they are shooting for one of the top 4 QBs. 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise