Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Capt'n Obvious said:

 

Devin White and Vita Vea missed that game. Not saying that marginalizes what TH did, but its definitely a factor. 

Thanks Captain Obvious... Sorry, couldn’t pass that one up.

 

Our oline was a(nother) key factor in keeping the game close against the Bucs.  Still significant room for improvement there though, IMO.  Obviously our run game was limited by 1) scoring deficits, 2) Turner sometimes getting away from the run, and 3) Gibson figuring things out early, and then missing time/not playing at 100% - but I feel like we weren’t often able to really lean on it (except against some poorer front 7s we faced, like Dallas.  

 

As for qb, one thing I like about filling out the roster (and not ‘throwing away’ resources for middling qbs) is that whenever (if ever) we do find a young qb, we’ll be better able to utilize the rookie contract.  Of course, it’s harder to nab a top one in the draft when the rest of the team is leading us to middle of the road seasons record-wise...

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So you've gone from yesterday from being he's not worth even a 7th rounder to now he's the dude?  Yes his O line wasn't hot, that's certainly true.  But watch him play a full game, including when he passes out of the shot gun where he has time.  His accuracy, decision making, starring at receivers the whole gamut is still on display.

 

PFF tries to account for your point.  Here is his rating froma. clean pocket.  We don't even know if WFT likes him unless there is a report I am missing.  We got basically Rapoport for now saying the WFt will look at every QB available so expect them to consider Darnold, too.  If so, I'd hope so.  I don't care what position it is consider everyone and study them. 

 

 

Maybe I only saw the good tape on him, SIP.  Yes, I did say 7th to 2nd today.  IF I am wrong, I'll take the wrap.  I like what I saw and when a QB gets pressured like he was MOST of the time, it throws a QB off.  Look at Wonderboy last night, Mahomes.  

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'd like to believe its that simple, but people in this thread are calling him Patrick Ramsey. I disagree because Darnold was supposed to be athletic and he's not been showing it. He has been getting sacked so badly because he's not mobile as advertised. So unlike Allen who was also inaccurate but was able to buy time and make plays with his mobility, we didn't see that with Darnold. He has gotten better in terms of the number of bad passes he's throwing but I'm just not seeing the potential there. Maybe for a low draft pick but I'd much rather sign a Tribusky or draft a Mond. 

 

Mobile is probably the wrong word.  And he's not fast.  A ran a 4.86 which is slow for a QB.  But he has moments where he is elusive in the pocket where he escapes pressure in somewhat of a dramatic and memorable way.  He's also good at rolling in the pocket -- boots.   I don't want the dude.  But that would be his strength IMO.

 

I don't want him because his accuracy is sketchy.  His decision making is bad.   And he hasn't kicked his turnover habit from college both as to fumbles and picks.  

 

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2018/7/31/17634804/what-do-sam-darnolds-college-turnover-issues-tell-us-about-his-future-new-york-jets

What do Sam Darnold’s college turnover issues tell us about his future?

Across his 27 college games over two seasons, Darnold amassed a whopping 36 turnovers. He lost 14 fumbles out of a total of 20, and threw 22 interceptions on 846 attempts (2.6%). After losing 5 fumbles and throwing 9 interceptions in 2016, Darnold lost 9 fumbles and threw 13 interceptions in 2017 as he threw 114 more passes.

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Maybe I only saw the good tape on him, SIP.  Yes, I did say 7th to 2nd today.  IF I am wrong, I'll take the wrap.  I like what I saw and when a QB gets pressured like he was MOST of the time, it throws a QB off.  Look at Wonderboy last night, Mahomes.  

 

Look everyone is entitled to their opinion.  We are all right and wrong so no wrap to take regardless of how it pans out. So all cool on that front.   I'll start with Darnold doesn't have freakish Mahomes like ability.  Even though he wasn't hot last night, Mahomes still at times showcased Superman like ability.  I don't get that vibe even a little watching Darnold.  Darnold is no freakish talent IMO. 

 

But my point is nothing beats just watching full games of players.  I used to watch just the highlights and its not the same.  So if you are just watching highlights I'd encourage you to watch a few full games.  I was a Haskins guy when I just watched highights before that draft.  But I spend a morning watching a bunch of his games -- the full ones, and i did a 180 on Haskins from pro to anti.  As for Darnold you can see how he plays with time and without time.  It's not a mystery. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I never want to see Tyrod Taylors name ever mentioned. It shocks me lol. 

[RWJ]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Look everyone is entitled to their opinion.  We are all right and wrong so no wrap to take regardless of how it pans out. So all cool on that front.   I'll start with Darnold doesn't have freakish Mahomes like ability.  Even though he wasn't hot last night, Mahomes still at times showcased Superman like ability.  I don't get that vibe even a little watching Darnold.  Darnold is no freakish talent IMO. 

 

But my point is nothing beats just watching full games of players.  I used to watch just the highlights and its not the same.  So if you are just watching highlights I'd encourage you to watch a few full games.  I was a Haskins guy when I just watched highights before that draft.  But I spend a morning watching a bunch of his games -- the full ones, and i did a 180 on Haskins from pro to anti.  As for Darnold you can see how he plays with time and without time.  It's not a mystery. 

Respect that, SIP.  

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK.  But I am not sure what the argument is even an elite guy isn't worth the money?    I don't think anyone disagrees that paying less for players beats playing more if you can pull it off. 
 

 

 

It’s not an either or type deal, but even within the elite QB status, what they’re paid might play a huge role in their teams success is my hypothesis. Is it possible that is more than just getting the elite guy? Among all the other resistance variables to getting to a conference title game, is what they’re paid just as important as anything in a macro sense? 
 

Imagine being the Bucs and paying Jameis  Winston $21mil the prior season to paying Tom Brady $25mil. That’s football economics for ya lol *Scratches head*. 

 

Just spitballing, I know it doesn’t directly challenge anything you’re saying. I do feel Brady went to a loaded roster, but what he was willing to be paid could be argued in value as much as his play. Hmm 🤔 Thoughts?

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

Finlay just said WFT has no interest in Wentz.  Not that I thought they would. 

[Stone Cold]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Finlay just said WFT has no interest in Wentz.  Not that I thought they would. 

Thank you baby jeezus!  Now report the same for darnold pretty please

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Market appears way too inefficient to be going after a QB now. I honestly might just wait it out, at the very least take a shot in the draft. No way am I giving up a 1st for Sam freaking Darnold.

 

Total sellers market. We need to either roll with Allen/Heinecke/Smith (in Smiths case only if he agrees to restructure) or draft a guy like Jones.

[Andre The Giant]

 

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Finlay just said WFT has no interest in Wentz.  Not that I thought they would. 

I really wonder who they are interested in. In particular, if the asking price for these guys is 1st plus, what would we be willing to give up for Dak? ANd will the Cowboys do an exclusive or non-exclusive tag? And then there are guys like Mariota, Tribusky, Bridgewater, Winston, etc. Are they all on the same tier (from a front office's perspective). Ron and the FO talked about no giving away the future, so does that mean that Stafford's offer is the max we are willing to give up? Does that make a backup or (non franchise) free agent more appealing than a trade for a starter? 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Just spitballing, I know it doesn’t directly challenge anything you’re saying. I do feel Brady went to a loaded roster, but what he was will to be paid could be argued in value as much as his play. Hmm 🤔 Thoughts?

 

 

 

In most sports even those without a cap what you pay players matter because few owners have unlimited money.   So I think we all agree it matters.

 

I outlined my thoughts about categories of QBs and by extension paying them in a different post over the weekend.    

 

In short i think the hardest category to figure out to pay or not to pay are the QBs in the 10-15 range.    The dilemma is in my book if you have a 25-32 type QB instead even with a good supporting cast, you might stink.  But i am also in the camp that stinking isn't the end of the world if it puts you in position to take a top QB in the draft regardless of whether drafting a QB high can still result in a bust.  To me its all about playing the odds. The odds are better if you can take one of the higher end picks. 

 

I think our lack of success at QB has been largely about bad luck.  We haven't stunk in the years where the more obvious good ones hit the draft.  I recall for example both you and I were high on Kyler Murray but alas he was out of our range in that draft.  The only time during Dan's era we shot high for a QB who was considerted by most potentially elite was in 2012.  And even that year we weren't positioned to get him and instead had to trade the farm to move up.  That also can be considered unlucky because we had to expend a ton of resources to get the dude which increased the fallout if we were wrong. 

 

A dude like Brady is special. Obviously its not easy to find a legend like that.  And indeed even better if you can get him at a good price.  The idea that players will sign with Tampa on the cheap off the street IMO isn't some wild coincidence or just an odd stroke of luck.  Brady likely had something to do with it.  Keim said agents have told him their WR clients like to go to teams with stud QBs everything being equal.

 

In short, I think there is a ripple effect in a positive away from having a top guy.  And ditto a negative one from not having a top guy.  Do I think for example Amari Cooper turned us down for staying in Dallas partly because of Dak?  Yes, I do.  Do I think for example Allen Robinson meant it on twitter that he wants to go to a team to win rings?  Likely yes.    I do think there is a money makes money aspect to having the QB spot set.    And by that I am referring to a top 10 type.  

 

 

 

 

On another note, I am not dying on the hill for any of these 2nd tier QB types including Mariota.  But I'd easily go for him over Darnold and I bet he comes cheaper. 

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carson-wentz-sam-darnold-on-the-verge-of-being-traded/

Marcus Mariota also on the move?

Finally, sources tell me Marcus Mariota is drawing interest and is likely to be traded by the Raiders. The former second overall pick signed a two-year deal with Las Vegas last March.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

I'm always intrigued about what the 49ers are up to and who they are interested in.  Seems like Shanahan is getting in to collecting prior first round picks.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to a dude who covered Darnold with the Jets. He said he watched every game and many practices.

 

His take is bad mechanics. Bad decision maker. He struggled to read defenses.
 

He thinks he likely improves elsewhere but his ceiling is OK to good, he doesn’t see any potential greatness 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to a dude who covered Darnold with the Jets. He said he watched every game and many practices.

 

His take is bad mechanics. Bad decision maker. He struggled to read defenses.
 

He thinks he likely improves elsewhere but his ceiling is OK to good, he doesn’t see any potential greatness 

So basically aside from him not violating Covid protocols twice and the myriad of other character related issues, he's Dwayne Haskins.  😬

[Skinsinparadise]

He also said on Darnold  that he has mind boggiling decisions every game. Telegraphs throws.

[Est.1974]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Marcus Mariota also on the move?

Finally, sources tell me Marcus Mariota is drawing interest and is likely to be traded by the Raiders. The former second overall pick signed a two-year deal with Las Vegas last March.

no chance the Raiders carry the contracts of both Carr and Mariota, so yep something has to give.

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to a dude who covered Darnold with the Jets. He said he watched every game and many practices.

 

His take is bad mechanics. Bad decision maker. He struggled to read defenses.
 

He thinks he likely improves elsewhere but his ceiling is OK to good, he doesn’t see any potential greatness 

I don’t particularly like the idea of Darnold, but can see the merit if Rivera and co want to take the risk. Just got to ride with that I guess.

 

What bothers me more is his contract situation and therefore the price associated with the trade. You simply can’t activate his 5th year option due to the cost risk, if he were to be seriously injured it will guarantee. So it’s odd, without a mutually agreed flexible contract extension.

[redskinss]

3 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

no chance the Raiders carry the contracts of both Carr and Mariota, so yep something has to give.

Didn't they Carry them both last year?

I'm confused, why do you think there's no chance when that's what they just did?

 

Or am I missing something?

[Est.1974]

Just now, redskinss said:

Didn't they Carry them both last year?

I'm confused, why do you think there's no chance when that's what they just did?

 

Or am I missing something?

cap situation isn’t really conducive to that this year.

[Warhead36]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to a dude who covered Darnold with the Jets. He said he watched every game and many practices.

 

His take is bad mechanics. Bad decision maker. He struggled to read defenses.
 

He thinks he likely improves elsewhere but his ceiling is OK to good, he doesn’t see any potential greatness 

He could improve but I think he needs to sit and learn for a year. Basically be rebuilt and rebooted.

 

But even then, why go through all that effort for a guy who probably projects to be no better than like 12-15th best QB? The great ones are great(or at least good to very good) basically from the get go.

[Skinsinparadise]

They are about to take listener calls on Darnold on 106.7

 

Finlay who isn't a Darnold guy goes after the Jets reporter finished the segment.  The Jets reporter evisceraed Darnold yet still thinks the Jets get a good haul for Darnold.  Suggesting the desperation in the market for QB.  the Jets reporter thought the high end would be a first for Darnold, low end a 2nd and a 5th. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[FrFan]

I wouldn't trade for any QB, keep the draft picks to build a prime OL and add some offensive weapons

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

I would rather take a flyer on rebuilding Mariotta who has at times flashed star potential than a turnover machine with bad mechanics AND poor decision making like Darnold.