A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

that fans might be able to start realizing that coaching at the pro-level is entirely overrated.

There are maybe 3 or 4 coaches at most who deserve their reputation...one of which used to be the OC here...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

There are maybe 3 or 4 coaches at most who deserve their reputation...one of which used to be the OC here...

Right, there are absolutely a few that make a more significant difference than others.  

 

Which ties into the other side of the issue, and I've seen @Skinsinparadise make mention of it regularly, and it gets pretty much *crickets* as well.  And that is, who exactly do you think Dan is capable of hiring to replace Ron?  Folks want Ron gone so bad because of X, Y and Z - yet have no answers for who to replace him with.  Who is going to come in here, make over the organization once again, and get this team winning?

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

And that is, who exactly do you think Dan is capable of hiring to replace Ron?  Folks want Ron gone so bad because of X, Y and Z - yet have no answers for who to replace him with.  Who is going to come in here, make over the organization once again, and get this team winning?

This is why I really turn the station when callers start calling in--it's ALWAYS the biggest morons, and they ALWAYS want to fire Rivera. Anyone who wants to fire Rivera should look at what's going on with the Mets right now...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is why I really turn the station when callers start calling in--it's ALWAYS the biggest morons, and they ALWAYS want to fire Rivera. Anyone who wants to fire Rivera should look at what's going on with the Mets right now...

Agreed man, I mentioned this the other day in another thread...where do they find these people?  Is there really nobody in the area of sound mind that calls in to speak on sports radio?

[Riggo#44]

35 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Agreed man, I mentioned this the other day in another thread...where do they find these people?  Is there really nobody in the area of sound mind that calls in to speak on sports radio?

There are plenty--those people have jobs and are working, productive members of society, and are too busy to call in and talk to the nitwits on the radio.

[Koolblue13]

Dan doesn't fire coaches. It's ridiculous the way fans are even mentioning firing Ron. I guess yall are less patient than Dan Snyder. 

 

Pretty much everything you want to say negative about Dan is generally correct, except this. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

There are plenty--those people have jobs and are working, productive members of society, and are too busy to call in and talk to the nitwits on the radio.

Interesting you say that, because it seems they do keep the same guys calling in, to multiple shows as well.  And I often wonder, how do they always have the time to wait on the line for their time to talk?

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, BudLighticke said:

I’ve been really frustrated with Rivera myself but I didn’t get that impression from that quote at all. I actually like that he keeps referencing that a 7-9 record in a down division year doesn’t mean that we had arrived and that the longer term vision is to be much much better than that. No more settling for mediocrity is what I think he was trying to convey. Whether that happens or not, is anyone’s guess. I won’t hold my breath lol.

 

Also, I know it’s easy to just point to how many winning seasons he’s had and act like he’s not a good coach, but he took a terrible 1-15 panthers team to the Super Bowl a couple of years later and had some other really solid seasons mixed in. He’s not some dope coach, even though I said something out of frustration a couple weeks back referencing this regime, I do think it’s way too soon to be breathing down their necks. 

Ron?

 

You are incorrect in your statement.

 

Ron inherited a 2-14 team. It took him 5 years to get to the super bowl. He had 2 losing seasons before winning. One of those playoff years was winning the division with a 7-8-1 record and winning a wild card.

[BudLighticke]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Ding, ding, ding.

 

Fans are pre-dispositioned to always blame the coaching for everything.  One would think after so many years, of different head coaches with varying degrees of experience and reputation, spanning from hotshot OC's to SB winning head coaches, where all of them end up in just about the same territory record wise, that fans might be able to start realizing that coaching at the pro-level is entirely overrated.  That or there is a spell cast over Ashburn that immediately makes every head coach forget everything they ever knew about winning.  @thesubmittedone has done more research on this very fact that anyone I know of and practically every time he posts it...*crickets*. 

 

Coaching at the pro level is not overrated. At all in my opinion. Getting a bunch of grown men making millions of dollars with access to things we could only dream of, and in some cases the guys they are coaching are older and more established in their careers, to play the ultimate team game is no easy feat. Coaching at the pro level is extremely difficult as well due to the salary cap and overall parody the league instills. Coaches need good organizational structures in place and talent to succeed, no arguments there, but to say coaching itself is overrated, I just have to disagree on that front.

 

The chiefs aren’t what they are today without Reid. The patriots don’t win those first few super bowls without the genius of Belichick. Sean Payton went 7-9 3 straight seasons WITH Drew Brees, a bad coach loses that locker room and is gone. Now he’s winning games with Taysom Hill and Jameis Winston. Bill Belichick may have been average in Cleveland, but that place became a dumpster fire for 2 decades after he left. Maybe average in that situation was actually an example of great coaching? McVay went to a Super Bowl with Jared Goff, who is now heading up one of the absolutely worst franchises in the NFL, presumably under a coach and coaching staff that is totally overmatched. Tomlin and Harbaugh are as steady as they come, and as their rosters turn over, they continue to lead their team to respective seasons and more playoff seasons than not. Bruce Arians may have been given a loaded roster, but to bring in Tom who had been in one system his whole life and adapt his coaching to fit toms strengths, all the while managing a massive amount of egos in a single locker room and win the Super Bowl is one hell of an example of how great coaching matters. I could literally go on all day.

 

Again good org structures are needed, since they are the ones identifying the coaching talent out there and bringing in the right leader of men. Coaches also DO need talent, which again is accumulated more often and successfully the more stable the organization is. But to point to a few examples  of coaches struggling without a QB in place and then parlay that into “coaching is overrated at the pro level” seems pretty absurd to me.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, BudLighticke said:

But to point to a few examples  of coaches struggling without a QB in place and then parlay that into “coaching is overrated at the pro level” seems pretty absurd to me.

A few?  Really?

If you don't see the direct correlation between having a legit NFL QB and a coach's W-L record, you don't want to see it.  That was just something Riggo threw together quickly.  Feel free to go back and look at head coaching records and the stark differences when a guy has a franchise qb vs. when they don't.

 

Saying coaching at the pro-level is overrated doesn't equate to 'it's not important at all'.  There's this large area between 'overrated' and 'end all, be all'.  I'm well aware of how important leadership is to a team.  But fans always want to fire the head coach and start over, and we've played that game here on numerous occasions with a franchise legend 3x SB champ head coach, another SB winning head coach, a hotshot offensive coordinator, and most recently Ron Rivera.  What's the common denominator for their ills beyond being employed by Dan Snyder and his next in charge?  The lack of a franchise QB.

 

Give me the franchise QB over a legendary head coach, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  I guarantee you I will win more games with an average head coach and a franchise QB than I do vs. a great head coach and an average QB.

 

 

[BudLighticke]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

A few?  Really?

If you don't see the direct correlation between having a legit NFL QB and a coach's W-L record, you don't want to see it.  That was just something Riggo threw together quickly.  Feel free to go back and look at head coaching records and the stark differences when a guy has a franchise qb vs. when they don't.

 

Saying coaching at the pro-level is overrated doesn't equate to 'it's not important at all'.  There's this large area between 'overrated' and 'end all, be all'.  I'm well aware of how important leadership is to a team.  But fans always want to fire the head coach and start over, and we've played that game here on numerous occasions with a franchise legend 3x SB champ head coach, another SB winning head coach, a hotshot offensive coordinator, and most recently Ron Rivera.  What's the common denominator for their ills beyond being employed by Dan Snyder and his next in charge?  The lack of a franchise QB.

 

Give me the franchise QB over a legendary head coach, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  I guarantee you I will win more games with an average head coach and a franchise QB than I do vs. a great head coach and an average QB.

 

 

I guess that would mean you believe that franchise QBs aren’t dependent on their surroundings and the coaching staff that they work with? That they will succeed and become franchise QBs regardless of whether or not some average coach is the ones talking in their ear every play? Josh Allen isn’t Josh Allen without Sean McDermott and that coaching staff bringing him along and supporting him the entire way. Surrounding him with weapons, and nurturing him along the way. I don’t think Mahomes is Mahomes without Reid. Lamar isn’t Lamar if Harbaugh didn’t change his entire offense to cater to the strengths of his new QB. 
 

On the reverse, maybe Darnold and Trubisky could have really become franchise QBs without Gase and Nagy as their coaches? Who knows. But certainly plausible. 
 

I just don’t at all agree that it’s franchise QB or bust, and that everything else is overrated in comparison. There are many many reasons coaches haven’t been successful here, not having a franchise QB is just one of them. When you refer to something as overrated, it comes off that you are saying the importance of it is over valued. I just can’t agree with that.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, BudLighticke said:

I guess that would mean you believe that franchise QBs aren’t dependent on their surroundings and the coaching staff that they work with? That they will succeed and become franchise QBs regardless of whether or not some average coach is the ones talking in their ear every play? Josh Allen isn’t Josh Allen without Sean McDermott and that coaching staff bringing him along and supporting him the entire way. Surrounding him with weapons, and nurturing him along the way. I don’t think Mahomes is Mahomes without Reid. Lamar isn’t Lamar if Harbaugh didn’t change his entire offense to cater to the strengths of his new QB. 
 

On the reverse, maybe Darnold and Trubisky could have really become franchise QBs without Gase and Nagy as their coaches? Who knows. But certainly plausible. 
 

I just don’t at all agree that it’s franchise QB or bust, and that everything else is overrated in comparison. There are many many reasons coaches haven’t been successful here, not having a franchise QB is just one of them. When you refer to something as overrated, it comes off that you are saying the importance of it is over valued. I just can’t agree with that.

Again, when I say 'overrated' - I'm speaking specifically to the very large demographic of fans that seem to think X head coach is going to turn poop to ice cream.  That's just not how it works.  It doesn't mean the job of a head coach is meaningless or that they have no influence on the results.  Still, if you asked me to pick a great head coach or a great QB to start my franchise, I'm going with the QB first, 100 times out of 100.

 

And this is really a separate issue but does tie into what you're saying about how franchise QB's are not born, they are developed.  I don't find that to be untrue.  But the common denominator are the coaches capable of developing a franchise QB typically are employed by ownership and front offices that allow them to be their best.  Something no head coach that has ever been employed here in the last few decades has ever had the ability to do.  I could go on and on for days about how the phrase 'it all starts at the top' isn't just some cliche catch phrase.  But I'd just be repeating myself for what feels like the millionth time.

[Conn]

 

[justice98]

Interesting little "today I learned" nugget.   Today I learned, that in the 89 year history of the franchise, only one head coach has started consecutive seasons 2-6:  Ron Rivera. 

 

It's happened a couple times, once in '93-'94 and once in the early 60s.  But never under one head coach. 

[El Mexican]

17 minutes ago, justice98 said:

Interesting little "today I learned" nugget.   Today I learned, that in the 89 year history of the franchise, only one head coach has started consecutive seasons 2-6:  Ron Rivera. 

 

It's happened a couple times, once in '93-'94 and once in the early 60s.  But never under one head coach. 

 

That's useless and incredible poignant at the same time. Shows The Danny is more patient in his adulthood.

 

As many have said, though: it makes little sense to wait years for things to change when a HC makes an erroneous judgement upon arrival.

RR is not one of those guys. He cleaned house when he got here and he had the cojones to cut Haskins but missed badly with the Fitzpratrick gamble.

 

I say give him another year and let him draft his QB.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by El Mexican

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

That's interesting that the Congress is requesting the NFL to uplift Dan's NDA. Also called "Gag orders" in that article from the WP.

 

As expected, Congress is unsatisfied with NFL's answer.  I would suggest the Congress to go all the way til the end of this and use Nuclear weapon ASAP to speed things a bit. Send subpoenas to everyone and have fun with it on tv. At the same time get the trials for perjury ready, because everyone know that's gonna happen too.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[SoCalSkins]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Dan doesn't fire coaches. It's ridiculous the way fans are even mentioning firing Ron. I guess yall are less patient than Dan Snyder. 

 

Pretty much everything you want to say negative about Dan is generally correct, except this. 

Dan fired Norv in season with a winning record and in the playoff hunt. Fired Marty after his 8-3 finish. Spurrier quit and Gibbs retired. Fired Zorn. Fired Shanahan. Fired Gruden in season. 
 

So how does Dan not fire coaches? 

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

Dan fired Norv in season with a winning record and in the playoff hunt. Fired Marty after his 8-3 finish. Spurrier quit and Gibbs retired. Fired Zorn. Fired Shanahan. Fired Gruden in season. 
 

So how does Dan not fire coaches? 

It's not that simple. 

[hail2skins]

Think you have to separate 2000s Dan from 2010s Dan when it comes to firing coaches. I don't think Spurrier would've lasted past a third crap season without getting the axe, and Gibbs was unfireable.

 

I'm not sure what happened with Shanny, but you get the sense it was Mike who more wanted out due to the RG3 BS and the "fired" language was agreed on for financial reasons. Jay of course was fired, but I think lasted longer than he would've under 2000s Dan.

 

I think Rivera is safe for a while. But I agree with SIP that it feels like the Shanny era and it seems like we still don't have a solid QB prospect. I like Taylor's moxie, and the talent he has to work with is bare, but is he just too limited in other areas?

[CobraCommander]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

It's not that simple. 

Then how can it be as simple as saying Dan doesn’t fire coaches. Either he has or he hasn’t. Which is it? Are you saying he has someone else do the firing for him?

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, hail2skins said:

Think you have to separate 2000s Dan from 2010s Dan when it comes to firing coaches. I don't think Spurrier would've lasted past a third crap season without getting the axe, and Gibbs was unfireable.

I think Rivera is safe for a while. But I agree with SIP that it feels like the Shanny era 

This is the thing that matters. Is this like Shanny or Gibbs II? I lean Gibbs since Ron was allowed to cut Dan's QB. I think we'll learn a lot this next year, but there is no way Dan recovers from firing Ron after 2 seasons. Especially with Ron having his 2 GMs. This is the middle of a top down rebuild.

2 hours ago, Florgon79 said:

Then how can it be as simple as saying Dan doesn’t fire coaches. Either he has or he hasn’t. Which is it? Are you saying he has someone else do the firing for him?

Norv, Shanny and Jay all knew they were lame duck coaches who had unofficially quit already. Snyder gave them all the rope they wanted and they used them to hang themselves. Snyder just finalized it.

 

Funny, Norvell had the most expensive super team, built by Vinnie and Dan and what did him in was not getting a good kicker of all things. If we had a strong kicking game, we probably could have won 13 games that year. That was the pinnacle of Dan and Vinny building and they had already told Norvell who the next HC would be to start the season. 

[profusion]

My sense is that Dan is more concerned about the public perception of the coaching than about the actual coaching. At this point, though, if Dan isn't aware of the 100% negative perception of him and his franchise, then I question whether he's attuned to attitudes about Ron.

[SoCalSkins]

2 hours ago, profusion said:

My sense is that Dan is more concerned about the public perception of the coaching than about the actual coaching. At this point, though, if Dan isn't aware of the 100% negative perception of him and his franchise, then I question whether he's attuned to attitudes about Ron.

The investigation is over. He will now shift focus to putting butts in seats. Jason Wright will be first to go then Dan will make it uncomfortable for Ron and he will quit if there isn’t on field improvement next year. Rinse and repeat. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

On 11/5/2021 at 7:17 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

This makes no sense. And a lot of sense all at once. 
 

So the NFL missed a deadline to hand findings over to Congress…why? I understand no written report was handed into the league but Wilkinson’s firm didn’t keep all of the information after the presentation? How can it all be so disorganized?  Even if there was no written report, it had to be presented somehow, some way. Was that discarded?

 

Was an investigation actually completed?