Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

[skinsmania123]

23 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

This.

 

Cousins would absolutely not be putting those numbers up here. The franchise is run extremely poorly. I think this team would be better with Cousins. I'm not sure we can even debate against that idea. But he wouldn't be doing what he is in Minnesota.

Maybe I am wrong but it seemed from reading some of your posts that you thought Alex Smith could have taken us somewhere last year.  ****ty run franchise and all.  Are you suggesting that when Alex was at the helm last year and we were 6-3, Cousin's couldn't of done that?  The schedule was mediocre at best, as we all know, until that prime time embarrassment against New Orleans. As a man, Alex is one of the best. But as a QB he is not going to take you from behind if your D struggles. He is not going to change a game in that way.  He is not going to change his approach to the game. There were numerous occasions where Cousins did. He also tried to overcompensate at times, which was to his detriment.   But he continued to grow and change even when he was here.  And that is something rare that most QB's I have seen in his league can't do.  But he has grown every single year.  Constant improvement in how he approaches the game. Understanding the nuances, the offense, his players proclivities and knowing where they are going to be, what the D is giving him, and trusting in his abilities.  There is not a doubt in mind he would have been HERE growing.  Last year could have been something special believe it or not.  I respectfully disagree with you.  

 

I don't think people give Cousins any credit for the fact that he has learned every single year. Adjusting.   That is rare by the way.   But regardless analysts stuck to the same story over and over again - "yeah but he will throw that INT. Yeah okay he took the Skins back in one or two games, but he will regress in the next.  Can't put the team on his back, etc."  But see that is another shift isn't it?  He just put the lackluster Minnesota team on his back.  Make no mistake the Minnesota Vikings D is mediocre this year.  And their secondary is pedestrian at best.  His best receiver in Thielan out. And he is going to a rookie and giving his TE a lot more looks. That is called adjusting.   The guy has not reached his ceiling yet.   

 

I don't give credit to Gruden for much but he and SM were spot on about Cousin's and obviously Shanny was as well for wanting to draft him.   

[Veryoldschool]

16 hours ago, Mooka said:

 

 Kirk was putting up > 4000yds > 27 TDs > 7.5 YPA around here like clockwork.

 

Absolutely he'd still be putting up big numbers here.

 

Winning games with this franchise though? No.

 

I think the defense is a little better than when he was here and the supporting cast on offense better than his 2017 team so I think Kirk would have us going 9-7 and possibly winning the NFC Least.

 

If he was healthy I think Smith would have the Skins in the division hunt also.

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

 

I don't think people give Cousins any credit for the fact that he has learned every single year. Adjusting.   That is rare by the way.   But regardless analysts stuck to the same story over and over again - "yeah but he will throw that INT. Yeah okay he took the Skins back in one or two games, but he will regress in the next.  Can't put the team on his back, etc."  But see that is another shift isn't it?  He just put the lackluster Minnesota team on his back.  Make no mistake the Minnesota Vikings D is mediocre this year.  And their secondary is pedestrian at best.  His best receiver in Thielan out. And he is going to a rookie and giving his TE a lot more looks. That is called adjusting.   The guy has not reached his ceiling yet.   

 

I don't give credit to Gruden for much but he and SM were spot on about Cousin's and obviously Shanny was as well for wanting to draft him.   

 

I think Alex Smith's style fits what this franchise is capable of. But, to be fair, I never said he could have taken us anywhere. I said the team had a solid record with Smith at quarterback and for that, I think Smith is very aggressively underrated by many here. But I never said the team would have amounted to much of anything (which is, coincidentally one of the many reasons I'm against Smith being the quarterback here again). So I do think you've misread my points.

 

Cousins absolutely adjusted. But he was dead on arrival here. He was treated in a way that soured him and he wanted an aggressive contract for being a QB that was phenomenal in the overall scope of the game but shrank in the big ones. That was him in DC. A change of scenery was likely needed for the guy. Though, I've never disagreed with the point that if Cousins had been signed before the two year tag ordeal and he was our quarterback that we'd be in better shape. So I really do believe you have either selectively read my posts, you misread them, or you lumped mine in with the hivemind. 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

42 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

He just put the lackluster Minnesota team on his back.

You can't be serious? I've watched plenty of Vikes games this year and the major difference in that team is Dalvin Cook, he creates issues for everyone and keeps the defense off balance.

 

Now if you're talking about the Denver game specifically then ok, I can see that but that's a 3 win team, exactly the type of team Kirk excels against.

 

Cook is the MVP and reason the team is where they are, Kirk is very good no doubt, he's not making bonehead mistakes of late but the season isn't over, they arent a division leader and they are 1-2 in their division while Green Bay is 3-0.

 

 

[skinsmania123]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think Alex Smith's style fits what this franchise is capable of. But, to be fair, I never said he could have taken us anywhere. I said the team had a solid record with Smith at quarterback and for that, I think Smith is very aggressively underrated by many here. But I never said the team would have amounted to much of anything (which is, coincidentally one of the many reasons I'm against Smith being the quarterback here again). So I do think you've misread my points.

I must have misread what you were saying okay, because it seemed you were very high on Smith and his ability to achieve something here.  And given the amount of money this organization doled out for him I think they thought so too.  

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Cousins absolutely adjusted. But he was dead on arrival here. He was treated in a way that soured him and he wanted an aggressive contract for being a QB that was phenomenal in the overall scope of the game but shrank in the big ones. That was him in DC. A change of scenery was likely needed for the guy. Though, I've never disagreed with the point that if Cousins had been signed before the two year tag ordeal and he was our quarterback that we'd be in better shape. So I really do believe you have either selectively read my posts, you misread them, or you lumped mine in with the hivemind. 

I think it was a mixed bag here.  I think he knew he had the support of the football guys that were here then like Gruden and SM.  And obviously the Shanahan's but yeah, Bruce Allen, who I think just does Dan's bidding, did sour him.   I am sure the change did him some good, but he did have to adjust to a new organization, offense, players, etc. But my main point is that he has shown that he constantly seeks to adjust and improve his skill set.  Smith may be a steady Eddie but when things go bad, or you go behind he is not going to bring you back but Cousins is showing he can. I guess another main point I have is that he has been underestimated. If you look at how he constantly improved every year you would have to think he was going to start winning the big ones. not matter where he was.  No one was a bigger detractor then me on Cousins but he kept proving me wrong and then I thought dude has NO ceiling.  This is crazy,  It is rare IMO.

 

 I don't know. I support a lot of what you say, you know that. I think in this case maybe because of the anti-Alex sentiment your posts in support of him sort of stuck out more for me a bit.  

[skinsmania123]

4 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

You can't be serious? I've watched plenty of Vikes games this year and the major difference in that team is Dalvin Cook, he creates issues for everyone and keeps the defense off balance.

 

Now if you're talking about the Denver game specifically then ok, I can see that but that's a 3 win team, exactly the type of team Kirk excels against.

 

Cook is the MVP and reason the team is where they are, Kirk is very good no doubt, he's not making bonehead mistakes of late but the season isn't over, they arent a division leader and they are 1-2 in their division while Green Bay is 3-0.

 

 

The defense is not good. I can't get over how their secondary is being exposed.  Maybe they were okay in the beginning of the season but the last few games.... exposed big time.  And  Dak put up 397 yards against them.   They better figure it out quick.

 

No I agree the Offense runs through Pro Bowl bound Dalvin Cook. But they shut him down and Cousins had to put it on his back.  It was actually good for him. Now he knows he can.

 

And I also agree Cousins biggest game will be Seattle, on the road, against a future pro bowl QB, in the loudest stadium, over .500 in prime time. Lets see how he does.

[KDawg]

9 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

  I am sure the change did him some good,

 

The change did him a lot of good. And he still has to get the big moments monkey off of his back. But he's doing well.

 

But again, what he's doing in Minnesota he would not have done here. For many, many reasons.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The change did him a lot of good. And he still has to get the big moments monkey off of his back. But he's doing well.

 

But again, what he's doing in Minnesota he would not have done here. For many, many reasons.

Cousins final 3 seasons here he passed for 4000+ yards each season 81 TD to 36 int td ratio....  Cousins did his job at QB..... O thats right now you tell but , but but , bt... He couldn't win the big game Joe..... Yeah well , We went from a QB who couldn't win the big game to a QB who can't win any. Cousins always had the respect of his teammates im not sure a single QB on this roster has that atm. 

 

  i Never got the Cousins hate while he was here and i get it even less now that he is gone, I'm guessing its a bunch of people who are still sour a mid round QB took RGIII 's job and made a garbage team respectable again.... Listen its not Cosuins fault you prematurely ran out and spent 100 bucks on a #10 jersey. ( not you personally K dawg just a "in general")

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Cousins final 3 seasons here he passed for 4000+ yards each season 81 TD to 36 int td ratio....  Cousins did his job at QB..... O thats right now you tell but , but but , bt... He couldn't win the big game Joe..... Yeah well , We went from a QB who couldn't win the big game to a QB who can't win any. Cousins always had the respect of his teammates im not sure a single QB on this roster has that atm. 

 

  i Never got the Cousins hate while he was here and i get it even less now that he is gone, I'm guessing its a bunch of people who are still sour a mid round QB took RGIII 's job and made a garbage team respectable again.... Listen its not Cosuins fault you prematurely ran out and spent 100 bucks on a #10 jersey. ( not you personally K dawg just a "in general")

 

 

There is no Cousins hate from me.

 

I HATE his contract.

 

I HATE the way the team managed him.

 

I HATE the way the franchise is run.

 

I do not hate Kirk Cousins.

 

That said, my point stands. What he is doing in Minnesota he wouldn't be doing here. This team would sit, at best, at 8-8. Likely much worse, even with Cousins, because of how poorly the roster is assembled. 

 

I do not regret letting Cousins walk for what he did here - consistently keeping the team at 8-8ish, getting middling draft picks, propping up the team.

 

To touch on my Alex Smith stuff again, just in case, I think Alex fit the roster MUCH better than Kirk. Why? He didn't make wild mistakes with the ball and he was much more steady. You count rely on his (albeit numbers wise not fantastic) games being similar no matter the situation. Kirk would throw for 500 and 4 TDs and then 105 and 3 picks (please understand that is hyperbole).

 

Kirk on a well built team with some weapons? Fits much better than Alex. Better arm. Not as risk averse (especially this season). 

 

Fit matters.

 

Of course, if the franchise were run appropriately, Kirk's fit would be much better.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Here is the baseline question for any QB: Can you win a Super Bowl with him?

 

The answer with Cousins - to me - is yes. So when you have that QB, you can stop worrying about that QB and focus on other stuff. The Skins could have spent - oh - seven years worrying about other stuff. But all we've done since the first time Cousins was franchised is spent time worrying about and focusing on one position.

 

So, I regret that we have wasted, like, five years on an issue that could have easily been resolved.

[NoCalMike]

Kirk was as good as gone after 2015, the only reason he remained on the team was due to being franchised two seasons in a row.  You can't force a player to stay somewhere they don't want to stay.  Once Cousins soured on the front office, it was a done deal.  

[UK Skins]

SIP, not to side-track the thread but it was Broncos fans that said their defence was garbage. That is the fourth blown lead this season. They might look good statistically but in reality it seems the product on the field doesn't match the statistics. They were deadly serious when they said they would lose from 20:0 up or whatever it was. Fortunately we were watching the Skins game as it was my laptop so we didn't actually have to watch the collapse!

 

And you know I respect you, I'm not including you with the wanna be Vikings fans.

[JSSkinz]

If you can win a Superbowl with Jeff Hostetler, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Nick Foles, and Trent Dilfer than you most definitely can win one with Kirk.

 

I think history shows us that any competent QB in the right situation can win a Superbowl unless you're the Bills, sorry Bills fans but 0-4 with all that talent.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

To touch on my Alex Smith stuff again, just in case, I think Alex fit the roster MUCH better than Kirk. Why? He didn't make wild mistakes with the ball and he was much more steady. You count rely on his (albeit numbers wise not fantastic) games being similar no matter the situation. Kirk would throw for 500 and 4 TDs and then 105 and 3 picks (please understand that is hyperbole).

I’m not sure it’s fair to label it that way because Kirk has shown he can win the Alex way, by riding the running game and dump offs, when it’s necessary and working.

 

The team rarely had the ability to run the ball when Cousins was here, so naturally they threw it a ton, creating more opportunities to turn it over.

 

Cousins is at his absolute best in PA, and we never had the running game to a place where we could truly leverage that. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not sure it’s fair to label it that way because Kirk has shown he can win the Alex way, by riding the running game and dump offs, when it’s necessary and working.

 

The team rarely had the ability to run the ball when Cousins was here, so naturally they threw it a ton, creating more opportunities to turn it over.

 

Cousins is at his absolute best in PA, and we never had the running game to a place where we could truly leverage that. 

 

*sigh*

 

I can't cover every aspect of the team in short posts, guys.

[CjSuAvE22]

Im confused some ppl it seems like are saying because our franchise stinks kirk couldnt help us?? is that what im understanding?? The greatest qb in the history of the league couldnt help us either....the guy married to giselle

 

[ananoman]

I think a lot of the negativity towards Kirk from the Redskins FO and fans is (was) due to cognitive biases.  Kirk was the afterthought- the 4th round pick in the same draft as RG3.  He was viewed as the guy who took top pick RG3’s job and has never been accorded the respect due to him by the Redskins or some fans 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

*sigh*

 

I can't cover every aspect of the team in short posts, guys.

Not sure what else really fits there.

 

The point still stands that if Cousins was asked to run a ball control offense behind a solid running game, he can do it.  He did it against us just a few weeks ago.

 

What he offers that Alex doesn’t is when the situation requires you toss it around the yard to keep up, he can do that too.  Granted, yes - he could end up turning it over that way as well.  But what does it matter? Atleast there is a chance we can keep up vs. getting boat raced.

[CjSuAvE22]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

*sigh*

 

I can't cover every aspect of the team in short posts, guys.

I dont know buddy had we let kirk walk fine....but the fact that they tried to sell us alex smith is what infuriates me the most...we were teh biggest fraud in the nfl at 6-3, smith had 10 touchdowns in 10 games we werent good with him we were slipping through the cracks.....had they let kirk walk and drafted a couple i would have been ok, but alex smith is not a 90 million dollar qb im sorry he just isnt not at 34 and he wasnt at 30 either he got paid 17 million a year on the chiefs....it was a terrible move by the front office only to get morons like me inside their stupid stadium...

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not sure what else really fits there.

 

The point still stands that if Cousins was asked to run a ball control offense behind a solid running game, he can do it.  He did it against us just a few weeks ago.

 

What he offers that Alex doesn’t is when the situation requires you toss it around the yard to keep up, he can do that too.  Granted, yes - he could end up turning it over that way as well.  But what does it matter? Atleast there is a chance we can keep up vs. getting boat raced.

 

We don't have a solid run game.

 

You're not wrong.

 

But again, I'm not talking in general football speak here. I'm talking specifically to this poorly run franchise.

[Taylor 36]

1 hour ago, skinsmania123 said:

And I also agree Cousins biggest game will be Seattle, on the road, against a future pro bowl QB, in the loudest stadium, over .500 in prime time. Lets see how he does.

He led a comeback victory there with an awful Redskins unit just a few years ago (it' s so strange how many people overlook or forget that game all together /sarcasm), so he is definitely capable of winning that game.  I think the bigger question is how with the Minny defense do.

[PF Chang]

The contract is now #7 based on average annual value. There are 3 others between $27-28 million per year. The $4.5 million difference between Cousins and what we're paying Alex Smith is less than the cost of Vernon Davis. 

 

The contract issue has always been overblown. And if the team is really that worried about spending at QB, there is really no justification for the Smith contract. 

[skinsmania123]

Just now, Taylor 36 said:

He led a comeback victory there with an awful Redskins unit just a few years ago (it' s so strange how many people overlook or forget that game all together /sarcasm), so he is definitely capable of winning that game.  I think the bigger question is how with the Minny defense do.

You know what I forgot that Cousins did that too.  He has come back in a number of games when he was here but there were other stories being told in the media that trumped any success he had because it was not emphasized.

 

Regarding the Vikings secondary.  Man are you right about that.  Didn't Minny replace Hughes late in the game against the Broncos?  He was definitely being targeted again. I don't remember who replaced him (?) he has been in the league awhile, but they need to maybe use him going forward because he came up with two good plays there at the end.  But I will tell you what their D can't play this way against Seattle, or Green Bay, and some of these other capable offenses.    Right now the Vikings are not balanced. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, UK Skins said:

SIP, not to side-track the thread but it was Broncos fans that said their defence was garbage. That is the fourth blown lead this season. They might look good statistically but in reality it seems the product on the field doesn't match the statistics. They were deadly serious when they said they would lose from 20:0 up or whatever it was. Fortunately we were watching the Skins game as it was my laptop so we didn't actually have to watch the collapse!

 

And you know I respect you, I'm not including you with the wanna be Vikings fans.

 

OK, cool, and thanks and I appreciate the comment and debating this in good spirits.  I do genuinely think Denver has a good defense though.  I've watched some of the their last minute loses on the red zone channel so notwithstanding that.  

 

My point though on Kirk is I just can't see why we are better off with him being gone?   To me that feels like more emotion than logic.  For me as to ANY player, the replacement has to either be as good or better or significantly cheaper.   It's not the case here.  I said at the time when they let him go, go young and try a different approach.  But they didn't do it.  So I can only judge this based on what transpired as opposed to what I would have liked them to do.    

 

I tried to be patient last year and this year on this front at least for a little while 😀 and let it play out before weighing in with a verdict.  To me the movie has played out enough aside from I get if people want to see if Kirk's performance lasts the season.  I am Ok on that point as to seeing if it lasts. I get that hesitation. 

 

It gives me no joy to see guys like Kirk, Preston, Crowder, etc kill it on another team with one exception -- it does please if it translates into Dan being waken from his coma, Bruce is fired and they decide to run a competent office that just cares about winning.  So if Kirk killing it makes Bruce miserable (as some beat guys purport) than I am all for it.  😀  And for me Kirk isn't really the point, I said this on the Kirk thread a year ago my main issue with it is the dude who mismanaged it is still in charge.  If he wasn't anymore, I wouldn't give a rats behind about anything related to Kirk.   And to me the Trent thing is Part 2 of the series which was equally bungled.  What next?

 

I get the image some people have on Kirk as to being a dude who isn't great.  Like I said I wrestle with that myself, I go back and forth from good to great.  But he's playing great right now, 21 TDs-3 INTs is great.  If he keeps on that pace, that's him having a great year and maybe he's taken that next step in emerging into a great QB?   Will see.  You got me if it continues and I am not doubling down on the point that he does.     Kirk has always baffled me on the good to great argument.  I go back and forth on it. 

 

And just like some of the people here who don't like Kirk for whatever reason, I also have the I'll believe it when its done feeling.  I am with the belief of lets see the last chapter of the book before crowning the dude.   But on that point for me it's not about whether Kirk is good or not.  I am 100% in that he's a good QB.  It's whether he's great?   And he's had flashes of great.  He's been great this season.  My point is if he finishes the season the same way -- that's a Drew Brees type killer season and I am open minded (and always have been on him especially since 2015) that he might ultimately emerge as a great QB.  Would I go to Vegas and put money on it?  Nope.  But I don't think the argument is ridiculous either.   It's possible IMO. 

 

We are paying over 30 million a year for the Qb position. I get some of what transpired is unlucky but look part of the negotiation impasse was Bruce wasn't willing to go 3 years guaranteed for a 29 year old QB but on other hand he went 3.5 years guaranteed on a 34 year old QB.  And I don't think it's that odd that it backfired -- JLC among others criticized the extension as risky at the time.   

 

[rick7423]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

 

There is no Cousins hate from me.

 

I HATE his contract.

 

I HATE the way the team managed him.

 

I HATE the way the franchise is run.

 

I do not hate Kirk Cousins.

 

That said, my point stands. What he is doing in Minnesota he wouldn't be doing here. This team would sit, at best, at 8-8. Likely much worse, even with Cousins, because of how poorly the roster is assembled. 

 

I do not regret letting Cousins walk for what he did here - consistently keeping the team at 8-8ish, getting middling draft picks, propping up the team.

 

To touch on my Alex Smith stuff again, just in case, I think Alex fit the roster MUCH better than Kirk. Why? He didn't make wild mistakes with the ball and he was much more steady. You count rely on his (albeit numbers wise not fantastic) games being similar no matter the situation. Kirk would throw for 500 and 4 TDs and then 105 and 3 picks (please understand that is hyperbole).

 

Kirk on a well built team with some weapons? Fits much better than Alex. Better arm. Not as risk averse (especially this season). 

 

Fit matters.

 

Of course, if the franchise were run appropriately, Kirk's fit would be much better.

So... you are saying Alex fits a dysfunctional, poorly built, horribly managed team. Not saying much.

 

Alex showed nothing when he played other than he did not turn the ball over. He was 'under-whelming' at best. The team won games under his leadership despite his poor play.