Skinsinparadise Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, SkinsFanMania said: yards is a ridiculous way of measuring how good a QB is as is passer rating which is so antiquated. Yards per attempt is much better and maybe QBR, but quarterback rating is really ridiculous. I am more of a TD-INT guy. Agree yards isn't the be all and end all. What's getting a lost in the sauce as to QB stats and MVP talk about Kirk is sadly Dak's numbers. It sickens me he's breaking out the way he is this season. PFF does their own aggregate score, Dak is #8. And on the YPA you mention Dak is #1 yuck. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/gross-yards-per-passing-attempt NFL Player Stats - Yards Per Pass Thrown More Player Stats... Rank Player Team Pos Value 1 Dak Prescott Dallas Cowboys QB 8.8 2 Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chiefs QB 8.7 3 Kirk Cousins Minnesota Vikings QB 8.6 4 Matthew Stafford Detroit Lions QB 8.6 5 Russell Wilson Seattle Seahawks QB 8.4 6 Lamar Jackson Baltimore Ravens QB 8.1 7 Derek Carr Oakland Raiders QB 8.0 8 Deshaun Watson Houston Texans QB 7.9 9 Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers QB 7.8 10 Jimmy Garoppolo San Francisco 49ers QB 7.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Taylor 36 said: It is funny how blinded you are by your hatred of Cousins. His last year here, the team was more decimated by injuries than it ever has been since the "Body Bag" game. We were literally playing people that we pulled in off the street, and most of the talent level that was left on the field that had been in the locker room from week 1 wasn't worth bragging about at all. We still got to 7-9. No running game to speak of. Porous O-line. Rickety defense. Cousins raised the level of the players around him to help get to that record. If you want to say that Cousins didn't raise the level of the players around him, then that would mean he did it all on his own, which would make him damn near elite. So, either way, we screwed the pooch. And, you can't have it both ways. Either he was a great QB held back by a crap organization and roster, or he was a good QB that raised the level of play of second, third, and even fourth string players. Trent Williams talked about Cousins leading the team and getting more out of the offense back then as well. And, even before 2017, it was reported how much the o-line preferred to have Cousins behind center than RGIII back in the day. Do you think that was because they preferred Kirk's cologne? No, it was because he helped them and the offense succeed. Look at the players that have been here not only during the Cousins' years, but with other QB's as well. Look at how much better they performed with Cousins under center. That isn't an opinion; that's a fact. And , the FO wasn't "forced" to sign Alex Smith. You're right that they (Bruce Allen mostly) put themselves in an absurd position because of how they handled the situation, but the Alex Smith trade and contract extension wasn't closed to forced on them. They had other options, including drafting a QB and/or getting a FA QB that wouldn't have required a trade (of course, this is when you'll come in and say that good QB's don't hit free agency, and my response is "DING, DING, DING" - that's part of what makes the whole Cousins saga so absurd; HE should have never been a FA to begin with, and by the fact that players like him don't hit FA, the price/demand was going to be high). They had no foresight or plan, which is typical of this organization, but again, they had options but chose to go the most expensive route. Very ironic considering we're talking about Cousins' contract, hmm? A contract that was inflated by the actions of Bruce Allen, nonetheless. One opinion I will give, that I feel is pretty close to fact, is that if Bruce Allen wasn't here, Kirk Cousins would have had no problem signing here, and it would have been a favorable contract for both parties. btw I edited my post before you actually posted this. I realized what you were trying to say regarding the actual record. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. Here is an example of a team that knows how to play when they are injured and I hate to use the Ravens again, but they were the most injured team by plays missed. Redskins were second and although they didn't make the playoffs they ended up going 9-7 and missed the playoffs because the Bengals one on a 4th and 12 at the end of the season. They went from the 5th seed entering the last week to the 7th seed. So the skins in the weakest conference in the league finished 7-9. Tell me how many good teams the Redskins beat when Cousins was the starter. BTW, I don't hate Cousins at all and I'm glad he got what he wanted, but there is no way in hell I believe he is worth that money. I never hated Cousins and thought he was worth a low 20m / year average contract, but not 28m per season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am more of a TD-INT guy. Agree yards isn't the be all and end all. What's getting a lost in the sauce as to QB stats and MVP talk about Kirk is sadly Dak's numbers. It sickens me he's breaking out the way he is this season. PFF does their own aggregate score, Dak is #8. And on the YPA you mention Dak is #1 yuck. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/gross-yards-per-passing-attempt NFL Player Stats - Yards Per Pass Thrown More Player Stats... Rank Player Team Pos Value 1 Dak Prescott Dallas Cowboys QB 8.8 2 Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chiefs QB 8.7 3 Kirk Cousins Minnesota Vikings QB 8.6 4 Matthew Stafford Detroit Lions QB 8.6 5 Russell Wilson Seattle Seahawks QB 8.4 6 Lamar Jackson Baltimore Ravens QB 8.1 7 Derek Carr Oakland Raiders QB 8.0 8 Deshaun Watson Houston Texans QB 7.9 9 Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers QB 7.8 10 Jimmy Garoppolo San Francisco 49ers QB 7.8 thanks, appreciate you sending these. He is definitely doing well in Minnesota as he has weapons on the Vikings and some of the best in the league. Is he carrying that team, no he is not. Who is carrying the team most in the NFL and that is where I believe Russell Wilson or Lamar Jackson are carrying the team more than anyone in the league and one of them should get MVP. Definitely not Kirk Cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeJacobyHOForRIOT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ananoman said: Agreed- Like I said before, Cousins was a victim of cognitive bias. He wasn't a high draft pick, he was an afterthought in the year that RG3 was drafted. Never was respected by the Skins Reading that is very depressing because its so true. Imagine this is a professional sports organization. The highlight of last Sunday's game was a shot of the empty stadium. Imagine empty seats being a fans only hope in a attempt at forcing the owner of our beloved franchise to sell the team , Imagine this being the current state of affairs as a Redskins fan. Never mind we are living it ! 😒 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CjSuAvE22 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, SkinsFanMania said: ok, 3 yrs 84m. You get the point and he wasn't worth that money at all. Skins did the right thing letting him walk. If the skins were better at utilizing the draft and when I talk about utilizing the draft, I'm talking about consistently hitting on day 3 picks like the Baltimore Ravens do, then maybe they will be a better franchise. When they let Cousins walk, even prior to letting Cousins walk, they should have drafted a QB that could have stepped in and played. This forced them to sign Alex Smith. Can you show me one quarterback in the last 25 years that was let go that put up cousins like numbers?? If not then he is worth every penny dont you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeJacobyHOForRIOT Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Just now, CjSuAvE22 said: Can you show me one quarterback in the last 25 years that was let go that put up cousins like numbers?? No one did it for 3 consecutive seasons but Alex Smith did it for 1, and we signed him... 🤣 With that said the Chiefs had the second coming of Brett farve waiting in the wings while we had well , nothing more than Snyders checkbook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said: thanks, appreciate you sending these. He is definitely doing well in Minnesota as he has weapons on the Vikings and some of the best in the league. Is he carrying that team, no he is not. Who is carrying the team most in the NFL and that is where I believe Russell Wilson or Lamar Jackson are carrying the team more than anyone in the league and one of them should get MVP. Definitely not Kirk Cousins. He's been missing Thielen for a good chunk of the year (their #2 right now is previous bust Treadwell) and has a subpar offensive line. But I love Cook, loved him before the draft. As for whether he's carry the team, I think few QBs do. Are we better off that Kirk is gone? Nope. Not even close IMO. Now, he can cool down and I expect him to do so -- you can't stay this hot. Plus they got Seattle coming up soon who I recall give him fits last year. I am with you on Wilson and Lamar for MVP over Kirk. But looks like if Kirk keeps going he will stay in that MVP chase -- its not just NFL pundits but Vegas is on it, too. My money is on Jackson over Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 3 hours ago, SkinsFanMania said: Yards per attempt is much better ABY/A is better, and almost as easy to calculate. Here are your 2019 leaders: Haskins and McCoy aren't on the list because they don't have enough pass attempts. But, trust me, you don't want to know their numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said: Can you show me one quarterback in the last 25 years that was let go that put up cousins like numbers?? If not then he is worth every penny dont you think? Drew Brees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: He's been missing Thielen for a good chunk of the year (their #2 right now is previous bust Treadwell) and has a subpar offensive line. But I love Cook, loved him before the draft. As for whether he's carry the team, I think few QBs do. Are we better off that Kirk is gone? Nope. Not even close IMO. Now, he can cool down and I expect him to do so -- you can't stay this hot. Plus they got Seattle coming up soon who I recall give him fits last year. I am with you on Wilson and Lamar for MVP over Kirk. But looks like if Kirk keeps going he will stay in that MVP chase -- its not just NFL pundits but Vegas is on it, too. My money is on Jackson over Wilson. Lets get this straight. I certainly don't think the Skins are better off since Cousins was gone. That is far from the truth and is the fault of the front office. Not because cousins left, because with good drafting we would be in better shape and if they drafted a qb in 2017, I can think of a couple decent qb's in that draft that would really put the skins in a good position. That being said, if Bruce Allen was smart, he would have locked Cousins up instead of franchising him the first time and he never would have been in a position to offer that much. They through him a contract with very little money and he scoffed at it. That's total disrespect, considering he was the best QB this team has had since the 80s. I'll say it again, I don't hate Cousins, I liked Cousins, just not at the price the Vikings gave him. I didn't want to give him what he got, because at the time that was a ridiculous contract and no one else has a fully guaranteed contract. Not even Arod has a fully guaranteed multi year contract anymore. I actually think Jackson wins MVP over Wilson and I love them both. I just think knowing the teams he has beaten...Seahawks, Patriots, Texans and both by 2 touchdowns or more....yes the defense has had a lot to do with it too. Also Russell Wilson got lucky last Monday night vs. the Niners. He was bailed out in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said: Drew Brees Coming off an injury where nobody knew for sure how he'd recover. And the Chargers had another franchise QB (3 years younger) ready to go. We had.... Colt McCoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tsailand said: Coming off an injury where nobody knew for sure how he'd recover. And the Chargers had another franchise QB (3 years younger) ready to go. We had.... Colt McCoy. don't change the rules. You had me pick one and he was gone anyways. They drafted Phillip Rivers 2 years prior to letting him go. The injury didn't play any part. Just as you stated Carson Palmer did well and so did Kurt Warner. There are others as well. Howabout Jim Plunkett. Drafted 1st overall by the Pats. Won 2 super bowls with the Raiders. Do you want me to go on or is that enough for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlinginSammy HOF '63 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, SkinsFanMania said: but there is no way in hell I believe he is worth that money. I never hated Cousins and thought he was worth a low 20m / year average contract, but not 28m per season. I agree, but we could've had him for lower money than it ended up. The franchise dicked around tagging and tagging inflating his value. Dan and Bruce are at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Just now, SlinginSammy HOF '63 said: I agree, but we could've had him for lower money than it ended up. The franchise dicked around tagging and tagging inflating his value. Dan and Bruce are at fault. absolutely at fault. We could have had him for 20m per year for 5 years with enough money guaranteed and he would have signed it without question at those numbers. I believe he was asking for less in the initial franchise year. As a matter of fact, I think the numbers were 18m for 5 years was his asking price with half guaranteed. Don't quote me on that, but I'm thinking that is somewhere along the lines and he is absolutely worth that and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said: I actually think Jackson wins MVP over Wilson and I love them both. I just think knowing the teams he has beaten...Seahawks, Patriots, Texans and both by 2 touchdowns or more....yes the defense has had a lot to do with it too. Also Russell Wilson got lucky last Monday night vs. the Niners. He was bailed out in the end. I don't mind either one winning it as long as this guy doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said: Carson Palmer did well and so did Kurt Warner. There are others as well. Howabout Jim Plunkett. Carson Palmer had to threaten retirement to get out of Cincinnati. Kurt Warner... you mean before or after bagging groceries? Jim Plunkett was mediocre for the Pats and bounced around to a couple other teams before making it to the Raiders. None of those guys put together Kirk-like numbers before being let go by the team that drafted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I've already said that the $28M a year is not as big of a deal as the anti-Kirk people think, particularly when they all love Alex Smith and his $23.5M a year. But now we're also using some of our most valuable assets to find another QB. We just used the #15 overall pick last year and it's possible we're about to use a top 2 pick on another QB. And yeah I think Burrow looks great but there's no guarantee with him either. Basically none of this is as simple as "this guy wants $1 more than I think he's worth, therefore it's good we let him walk." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, Tsailand said: Carson Palmer had to threaten retirement to get out of Cincinnati. Kurt Warner... you mean before or after bagging groceries? Jim Plunkett was mediocre for the Pats and bounced around to a couple other teams before making it to the Raiders. None of those guys put together Kirk-like numbers before being let go by the team that drafted him. he was bagging groceries before he ever got to the rams. It was after he won the super bowl and was SB MVP that he ended up on the Giants, but years later. After a year or so with the Giants he moved on to the Cardinals and led them to a SB as well. Are you trying to say Kurt Warner, who won the super bowl didn't put up Kirk Cousin like numbers, who never won a playoff game. Look it up if you don't remember me. He's a hall of famer for a reason. If you think Kirk Cousins is better than Kurt Warner then I have nothing else to say. You are blinded in b&g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Tsailand said: Carson Palmer had to threaten retirement to get out of Cincinnati. Kurt Warner... you mean before or after bagging groceries? Jim Plunkett was mediocre for the Pats and bounced around to a couple other teams before making it to the Raiders. None of those guys put together Kirk-like numbers before being let go by the team that drafted him. John Elway only had one year of throwing 4K yards in his whole career. There’s plenty of guys who’ve succeeded when moving on, but it doesn’t take away that Kirk is having a great run of football this season and the Vikings looked primed to make playoffs. I’ll keep it older school and off the top for the fun of it, but here are some QBs who experienced success after leaving a franchise: Montana Vick Favre Humphries M. Hasselbeck Cunningham Gannon Beurline Moon Plummer Brad Johnson Trent Green Boomer Mcnair Bledsoe Jim Harbaugh (the Hail Mary game... awesome!) Kirk Cousins A few are reaches, but having fun with it. Made me think of Scott Mitchell, he had a magical year in 95 after leaving the Dolphins a few year prior, but wasn’t worthy of being on list lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probos Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, PF Chang said: I've already said that the $28M a year is not as big of a deal as the anti-Kirk people think, particularly when they all love Alex Smith and his $23.5M a year. But now we're also using some of our most valuable assets to find another QB. We just used the #15 overall pick last year and it's possible we're about to use a top 2 pick on another QB. And yeah I think Burrow looks great but there's no guarantee with him either. Basically none of this is as simple as "this guy wants $1 more than I think he's worth, therefore it's good we let him walk." The notion that anyone on ES or any other fan site can make a well informed evaluation of any players worth is ridiculous. I doesn't matter what any of us think with regard to how much they get paid, who cares. People can make any argument they want against being happy Kirk is not here anymore, but here are the facts currently: - Kirk is starting QB of a 8-3 team and I'm pretty sure his stats have him in the top 5 of the league. - The Skins have started three different QBs through 10 games, fired their HC 5 games in and are 1-9. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out but, Vikings are in the mix at this point and the Skins stink on ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, wit33 said: John Elway only had one year of throwing 4K yards in his whole career. There’s plenty of guys who’ve succeeded when moving on, but it doesn’t take away that Kirk is having a great run of football this season and the Vikings looked primed to make playoffs. I’ll keep it older school and off the top for the fun of it, but here are some QBs who experienced success after leaving a franchise: Montana Vick Favre Humphries M. Hasselbeck Cunningham Gannon Beurline Moon Plummer Brad Johnson Trent Green Boomer Mcnair Bledsoe Jim Harbaugh (the Hail Mary game... awesome!) Kirk Cousins First let me say among the Kirk critics you are one of the more open minded ones. I killed Daniel Jones on the draft thread in the off season and to me he looks better than I thought he would. If I kept doubling down on my opinion on it then I'd look stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. I try to avoid doing that. We aren't football professionals and its not an easy sport to predict. I know in spite of all that you genuinely think they handled the negotiation fine, and on that I'll just continue to agree to disagree. 😀 I do think the Kirk drill was unique in that he was a homegrown QB who put up big numbers and was entering a prime age for QBs As for your examples, you made me work, I had to look some of them up its been awhile since I thought about some of those QBs. 😀 And doing it really brought home for me how unique Kirk's situation was. I understand your point is young-old, previous success doesn't matter. But from my point of view, i was curious about how unique it was for QBs to leave at Kirk's age after a similar run. So I look at it from that context. Montana: old Vick: obvious extenuating circumstances Favre: old Humphries didn't do squat with the Redskins, they just traded him and guessed wrong on his potential. Hasselbeck: similar to Humphries. did nothing in GB. and did little after he left Seattle and was old them Cunningham: oldish, 33 years old. Gannon: journeyman who emerged when he was 34 Beurlein: another journeyman who emerged when he was 34 Moon: was 38 when he left. Johnson: the closest to Kirk as to apples apples yet he barely played the season before, hurt? And he was 31. Trent Green: only had one season which was decent but nothing special, 54% completion percentage. Supposedly he was lost in part because if it falling in between the ownership change. Boomer: 2 bad seasons in row before moving at 32 McNair: old Bledsoe, pushed by Brady, but he was mediocre to bad statistically the 2 seasons before he was one Jack Plummer had a rocky season, 18 TD to 20 INT the season he was let go, he wasn't that great the season before either Jim Harbaugh: 2 mediocre seasons and then one bad one, then he moved on at 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 This thread should be shut down because everyone associated with the Skins regrets letting Cousins go now, everyone. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves. Spare me the BS about his big contract, 7 or 8 guys have better deals now or will soon have. The thing that really matters is Kirk is racking up top-5 numbers and his team is in the Super Bowl hunt. Imagine having that to watch. I think their pass defense is too weak to win the NFC much less the Super Bowl but at least they have a punchers chance, they are going to make the playoffs and maybe Zimmer will figure out how to improve his pass defense enough for Kirk and his offense to make a run. I hope so because watching them is the most fun I'm going to have this year. If the Skins ownership and FO were competent Kirk could be leading a Redskin's run, but they are incompetent so their fans have to watch the Vikings or some other real team from afar. Don't waste your time trying to lie to yourself or the rest of us, we all know losing Cousins was a terrible mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 The thing that differentiates Kirks' situation from just about any previous QB on that list is that we gave away two 1st rounders and a 2nd and let Kirk waste away his rookie contract while hoping RG3 would become the QB of the future. When a guy doesn't play until the 4th year of his rookie deal and in that 4th year finally has some success you are going to be scratching your head when it comes to your next move contractually. I think the best GM's in the league would have struggled with this situation (as GMSM did) because its unheard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, JSSkinz said: The thing that differentiates Kirks' situation from just about any previous QB on that list is that we gave away two 1st rounders and a 2nd and let Kirk waste away his rookie contract while hoping RG3 would become the QB of the future. When a guy doesn't play until the 4th year of his rookie deal and in that 4th year finally has some success you are going to be scratching your head when it comes to your next move contractually. I think the best GM's in the league would have struggled with this situation (as GMSM did) because its unheard of. I actually think Cousins started playing in Gruden's first season, which was 2014, and that was his 3rd season. I do believe part of if not a big reason the Skins didn't pay Cousins was Snyder's distaste for him because he liked RG3 too much. I could be overstepping my bounds, but that is what I believe. That being said, I will stick to my grounds that I don't believe he was worth the Vikings contract, but was absolutely worth a 5 year 100m contract from us in his first year he hit free agency or the initial year we franchised him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: This thread should be shut down because everyone associated with the Skins regrets letting Cousins go now, everyone. As someone who always believed and still believes that Kirk didn't want to be here if I were given the option of Kirk or Alex, I take Kirk all day but I didn't get the memo that said we were going to give $75M over 5 years to a 34 yr old QB. If the dummies in the FO would have let the team bleed out with Colt starting for a year we could have this team almost rebuilt by now and who knows maybe Mayfield could have been our QB. 8 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said: I actually think Cousins started playing in Gruden's first season, which was 2014, and that was his 3rd season. Yes, but I'm talking about actually being named the starter and being given the opportunity to lead the team for weeks and develop as a QB. That sort of kind of tried to happen in 2014 but Kirk went crazy with the Int's and it didn't officially happen until 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.