Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

That's interesting because in his podcast a few weeks ago he was very candid about what the team was willing to do and the only name he mentioned as "not going for it" in terms of the contract he wanted was GMSM.

 

That was a very laid back Vikes podcast and he didn't have his guard up.

 

He said point blank that after the 2015 season he and his agent were not signing anything but a 3 yr fully guaranteed deal because GMSM was not interested in his demands, why still maneuver through bits and pieces of media reports when you have Kirk telling you exactly what the thought process was.  Are you saying he was just being nice?

 

 

 

I've listened to the podcast multiple times and just re-listened to it now to refresh my mind.  It didn't change my read of anything then or now on the re-listen.  It jives very well with all the narratives.  It wasn't the only time Kirk and his agent have talked about the contract in an easy-frank way.  McCartney in particular went into detail. 

 

I said just being nice in the context of what he thought of Bruce.  Not the contract.  There are a zillion sources on what Kirk thinks of Bruce and vice versa so I buy it.   Paulsen in particular.  My kids did one of Kirk's football camps for a full weekend and Paulsen was hanging there and they looked close.  Paulsen has talked about being close with Kirk and every now and then he'd leak something and say that Kirk wouldn't want him to share this and then would throw a nugget out there.  And yeah the idea that Kirk didn't like Bruce, Grant among others were pretty blunt about. 

 

By the way, Kirk has mentioned Bruce in the context of the contract publicly.   But even if I played with Bruce did the contract right (on a scale of 0-100 I am at a 0) as to believing that.  Keim just said weeks ago he was the guy in the building who still thought they can get it done when others wanted to trade him.  So if Kirk was some wild hardcore inflexible dude then boy did it get past Bruce.  Even if we ran with the idea that Keim is dead wrong about Bruce's intentions -- it clearly played out that way anyway.   So I struggle for a pro Bruce spin on this front. 

 

The Scot aspect of this is well documented.  There was no big reveal on that front.  The fact that Scot was in the mix in 2016 was no secret.  Yeah he was with Bruce on it.  So what?  We posted all the articles on it back then, its well documented.  I'd add that there was a report from someone close to Scot (if I recall it was Jason Cole) that Scot didn't want to tag him in 2017 and wanted to trade Kirk and that was part of the tension between him and Bruce.

 

Kirk was never shy about talking about the guaranteed money.  That's no revelation.  That was the mantra the whole time.   I flat out mention the 3 years in my own post.  They disagreed about the annual value but the 3 year fully guaranteed was the heart of the disagreement.  It was talked about a gazillion times on the Kirk thread.  What was said then by the people covering the story is the only way they can get Kirk at less then the tag fee is 3 years guaranteed if done before the tag took place. 

 

And Kirk's statement on the podcast doesn't reveal one way or another whether they would take less than the tag fee if they got three years guaranteed. So that's anyone's guess.  But for some who covered the story, they believe that they could have gotten Kirk for less BEFORE the tag was applied but not after it. Not a lot less but less.  And we talked about then.  As for whether that was wrong or not, I don't know.  But that podcast doesn't answer that definitively.   And why do I trust Jones, Keim on this?  Because they called it right throughout.  

 

Scot obviously wasn't the dude that played out the script in 2017.  He was the dude who was part of it in 2016, and Kirk naturally started at the beginning of the story in part because Compton started the story from the beginning going even back to the RG3 period. Kirk said in 2016 he wanted a certain amount.  Scot disagreed with that figure.  Kirk then goes well then let me hit FA and test it.

 

In the mix of his statements on that same podcast we got:

 

"He goes there was a lot of different ways to play this but this is the way it played out"  (That to me speaks to the tag game just like I spelled out)

 

"Even though it meant I'd have to figure it out again once the season ended"

 

"I wish this would have been done differently"

 

He said in that same interview if he would have beaten the Giants in 2016, he'd likely still be there.  That is also consistent with the narratives especially from Jones who said he was optimistic early on in 2017 that they get a deal done but it went south because the negotiation started acrimonious.  If you recall Keim said, (it made it in an article or two) that Bruce that Spring, made things nice with Kirk and the tone of the negotiation improved. 

 

What do i mean by all of this?  If they didn't tag him either year and negotiated with him, yeah there probably would have had to give in on the 3 years guaranteed but I think there was a decent chance that the yearly salary would be less.  But once those tags were applied the rest played out exactly as they were warned it would.   

 

Bruce ended up giving 3.5 years in guaranteed to Alex (as opposed to just the 2 offered to Kirk) and now we are living happily ever after. 😀

 

Edit:  re-reading my previous post, I referred to the 3 years but not as bluntly as I typically do.  In that post I do it via Bruce not being willing to go over 2 years guaranteed.  But yeah the 3 years of guaranteed money was the main feature back when we talked about it.  The negotiations had a lot of twists and turns where there were different things-theories depending on the time-juncture but when it was all said and done, the 3 years was mentioned several times as the hang up.  And i mentioned numerous times the irony of Bruce not being willing to go over 2 for Kirk but did 3.5 for Alex and that ending up backfiring. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Master Blaster]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

How could anyone watch the NFL and not put McCaffrey near the top?

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

How could anyone watch the NFL and not put McCaffrey near the top?

 

Agree, though he is in his top 8 it looks like.  Am guessing Lamar ends up winning it. 

[Master Blaster]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree, though he is in his top 8 it looks like.  Am guessing Lamar ends up winning it. 

 

Yup.  If all stay healthy and on current paces, Lamar and McCaffrey should be 1 and 2 IMO.

[Mania]

cousins needs good to great players around him to succeed.  He isn't an elite qb and my definition of an elite qb is one that makes his players better around him and he certainly didn't deserve to get a 90+m 3 year deal and especially one that was fully guaranteed.  That being said, Bruce Allen screwed up by not offering him the 18m contract a couple years earlier.  That would have been perfectly fine.   

[Taylor 36]

6 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said:

cousins needs good to great players around him to succeed.  He isn't an elite qb and my definition of an elite qb is one that makes his players better around him and he certainly didn't deserve to get a 90+m 3 year deal and especially one that was fully guaranteed.  That being said, Bruce Allen screwed up by not offering him the 18m contract a couple years earlier.  That would have been perfectly fine.   

Kirk Cousins took a floundering, 1 - 3 win team and got them to 7 - 8 wins because he did make the players around him better.  And, he didn't get a 90+ million dollar contract.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Per tweet below, I doubt Kirk beats Lamar.  As for the betting odds on the other posts, I'd take Watson with those odds but I do think that Lamar takes it.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Probos]

On 11/18/2019 at 7:40 AM, Burgold said:

I still don't regret losing Cousins. At the same time, I do regret keeping Allen.

 

Like I said previously, as fans we have no reason to "regret" losing Kirk.  But considering his contract (why do fans give 2 ****es what players get paid?) and his currently level of play I absolutely wish this disaster of an FO had made the decision to keep him and build around him with Gruden,....and that gets back to your second statement.  I have no way to prove it, I but truly believe they would be much better and possibly competing for the division.  

[Burgold]

21 minutes ago, Probos said:

 

But considering his contract (why do fans give 2 ****es what players get paid?) 

In an absolute vacuum, I don't really care what players get paid except in the sense that our entire value system is out of whack and even vet minimum plus incentives is way too much considering what some more impactful professions garner. That said, if you do care about the team you support you have to care about contract numbers these days. Because of franchising Cousins, we lost Garcon and Jackson. Because of Alex Smith's salary we were hamstrung this year in how we could address the line. We wound up taking a flier on a tackle that absolutely failed with two teams and plugged him in at guard. If that didn't work our next best bet was an untested fourth round rookie who was considered a stretch and not an A+ prospect. We have no depth at tackle and while Penn was a good get, he was also pretty bargain basement.

 

In other words, if, as a fan, you care about the modern NFL, you have to care about salaries to a degree because each puzzle piece impacts every other puzzle piece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All in all, we should have kept Cousins. Cousins should have wanted to be here. Allen shouldn't have poisoned the atmosphere and relationship to such a degree that there could never be a solution. The way I saw it is Allen and Cousins made a bet after Cousins' first season starting. Allen said, "Bet you can't do it again. Bet you can't do it for a full season." Cousins came through with an outstanding season. Allen didn't pay up.

 

I understood the first franchise tag. The second one was where the team went very wrong. After losing "the bet" Allen should have come out with a market or above market offer and I bet it would have worked out. Instead, Allen treated it as a normal negotiation, lowballed Cousins, and tried to "win" the negotiation. Cousin gave Allen the finger. The Redskins were dead to him at that point.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Bottom line, Dan never warmed up to Cousins.  Can anyone honestly sit here and tell me if RGIII had passed for 12000 + yards and a 82 TD -36 int ratio his final 3 seasons here he would not have been offered a mega contract ?

 

 

[Probos]

9 minutes ago, Burgold said:

In an absolute vacuum, I don't really care what players get paid except in the sense that our entire value system is out of whack and even vet minimum plus incentives is way too much considering what some more impactful professions garner. That said, if you do care about the team you support you have to care about contract numbers these days. Because of franchising Cousins, we lost Garcon and Jackson. Because of Alex Smith's salary we were hamstrung this year in how we could address the line. We wound up taking a flier on a tackle that absolutely failed with two teams and plugged him in at guard. If that didn't work our next best bet was an untested fourth round rookie who was considered a stretch and not an A+ prospect. We have no depth at tackle and while Penn was a good get, he was also pretty bargain basement.

 

In other words, if, as a fan, you care about the modern NFL, you have to care about salaries to a degree because each puzzle piece impacts every other puzzle piece.

 

Well, I do see your point but "caring" requires energy.  I don't give energy to things out of my control anymore.  

 

This FO stinks, it's been scientifically proven.  They are pretty much to the sole reason this team is one of the worst franchises in the league.  You have no control over what they do and do not do, so, you're actively wasting you time and energy on "caring" about salaries.  But, obviously you're free to care as much as you'd like.

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Burgold said:

In an absolute vacuum, I don't really care what players get paid except in the sense that our entire value system is out of whack and even vet minimum plus incentives is way too much considering what some more impactful professions garner. That said, if you do care about the team you support you have to care about contract numbers these days. Because of franchising Cousins, we lost Garcon and Jackson. Because of Alex Smith's salary we were hamstrung this year in how we could address the line. We wound up taking a flier on a tackle that absolutely failed with two teams and plugged him in at guard. If that didn't work our next best bet was an untested fourth round rookie who was considered a stretch and not an A+ prospect. We have no depth at tackle and while Penn was a good get, he was also pretty bargain basement.

 

In other words, if, as a fan, you care about the modern NFL, you have to care about salaries to a degree because each puzzle piece impacts every other puzzle piece.

 

This team doesn't seem to play in FA much regardless of context and when they do they make many bad decisions.    I recall Bruce crowing about replacing Garcon and D Jax with Pryor and Quick and implying they'd be fine.    Supposedly coaches wanted to dump Norman in the off season, which would have saved cap room, Jay supposedly (according to Russell) wanted to keep Crowder but they let him go.  They'd have had the money to keep him especially if they let Norman go.

 

I get the argument that some are making that Kirk is too fancy of a toy for a team like the Redskins to keep, let a team who knows what they are doing like the Vikings play with the fancier toys.   But if they made a deal even at the 24 million cap figure, it would have been a bargain by today's market.  Kirk's roster here wasn't that hot.  I think Kirk with Peterson-Guice would have been a heck of a lot better than Perine and Rob Kelley.  

 

It is what it is.  And I agree with those who say it's not worth crying about it but to me I only agree with that in a vacuum.  My one and only interest in it is that the dude who bungled that negotiation is still in charge and is bungling more.  And if it pains Bruce to see Kirk do well (as some like Sheehan say) then it gives me joy to see Kirk do well.  Once Bruce leaves (if ever) I won't give a hoot.  How he handled Trent proves to me that Bruce learned nothing from the Kirk negotiation including how to get trade value. 

 

 

On an aside, am reading some of these tweets, Vikings fans pushing hard for Kirk for league MVP.  I think they would be disappointed.  Kirk thus far is having a great season.   But IMO no way he's beating Lamar Jackson.   Also, he's bound to cool down eventually, it's tough for QBs to stay this hot. 

 

 

 

[Burgold]

Yeah, my discussion of cap dollars and how the pie can be divided is predicated on the team making intelligent moves. That, unfortunately, is a very theoretical position when dealing with this team. 

 

We have made some good free agent moves, but the bad outweighs the good by a magnitude. Worse, as you said, the plan seems to be missing. Who cares if get a really cool stained glass window if the walls are falling down,

[Burgold]

41 minutes ago, Probos said:

 

Well, I do see your point but "caring" requires energy.  I don't give energy to things out of my control anymore.  

 

This FO stinks, it's been scientifically proven.  They are pretty much to the sole reason this team is one of the worst franchises in the league.  You have no control over what they do and do not do, so, you're actively wasting you time and energy on "caring" about salaries.  But, obviously you're free to care as much as you'd like.

I don't think you can be a fan and not "care" about said team.

 

I will say the degree of caring and energy I can summon towards the team this year (really since last offseason) has dwindled a lot. I think the pilot light is still on because I still mostly watch the games, but I haven't found myself yelling at the TV, cursing refs, or cheering great plays. I think I'm watching out of stubborness, habit, and a teeny bit of hope. Mind you, I'm convinced this season is dead. I was thinking 4-12 before the season started and posted that at least as far back as May. Who'd a thunk that would still count as a pollyanna-optimistic prediction?

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Yeah, my discussion of cap dollars and how the pie can be divided is predicated on the team making intelligent moves. That, unfortunately, is a very theoretical position when dealing with this team. 

 

We have made some good free agent moves, but the bad outweighs the good by a magnitude. Worse, as you said, the plan seems to be missing. Who cares if get a really cool stained glass window if the walls are falling down,

 

Agree but the problem is the QB position is a big part of the wall.  Most important position in sports.  Tough to have a good team without one.  And Dan has made the concept of botching the Qb position into an art form.  If they ever do a series on the Redskins demise -- some 30-30 ESPN show and I'd put some money that it eventually happens and they will devote a long segment to QB.  They've botched it in so many comical and epical ways.  I think more so than any team in the NFL.

[Probos]

10 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I don't think you can be a fan and not "care" about said team.

 

I will say the degree of caring and energy I can summon towards the team this year (really since last offseason) has dwindled a lot. I think the pilot light is still on because I still mostly watch the games, but I haven't found myself yelling at the TV, cursing refs, or cheering great plays. I think I'm watching out of stubborness, habit, and a teeny bit of hope. Mind you, I'm convinced this season is dead. I was thinking 4-12 before the season started and posted that at least as far back as May. Who'd a thunk that would still count as a pollyanna-optimistic prediction?

 

I root/care about the players and they way the play each week.  That's about it.  Now, when I watch it's almost completely and emotionally disconnected  If that makes me not a "fan", I'm fine with that.

[Burgold]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree but the problem is the QB position is a big part of the wall.  Most important position in sports.  

Pfft. Quarterback is hardly the most important position in sports. Look how many hockey teams won the Stanley Cup without having a QB even on the roster. Look how many gymnastic meets, swimming competitions, and horse races have been won without a QB in sight. Baseball. Basketball. No QBs. Are there QBs in golf... whoops. There are ton of QBs in golf. Never mind... (Rant continued on page 4)

Just now, Probos said:

 

I root/care about the players and they way the play each week.  That's about it.  Now, when I watch it's almost completely and emotionally disconnected  If that makes me not a "fan", I'm fine with that.

You're here. It means you care. You care during the games (though it sounds like you're suffering through the games much like I am.) You're a fan. I just find statements like "I don't care" to be troublesome

[Probos]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

You're here. It means you care. You care during the games (though it sounds like you're suffering through the games much like I am.) You're a fan. I just find statements like "I don't care" to be troublesome

 

Sure, I care but not about what any of the players get paid.  It's a brutal game, they should get as much as you can get, when you can get it.  If a team is run from the top down correctly it quells any issues or debate over what a particular player makes because you're usually too busy winning more games than not.

[Sonny9TD]

Does a hobby horse have a wooden doogan?

[Mania]

19 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

Kirk Cousins took a floundering, 1 - 3 win team and got them to 7 - 8 wins because he did make the players around him better.  And, he didn't get a 90+ million dollar contract.  

ok, 3 yrs 84m.   You get the point and he wasn't worth that money at all.  Skins did the right thing letting him walk.  If the skins were better at utilizing the draft and when I talk about utilizing the draft, I'm talking about consistently hitting on day 3 picks like the Baltimore Ravens do, then maybe they will be a better franchise.   When they let Cousins walk, even prior to letting Cousins walk, they should have drafted a QB that could have stepped in and played.  This forced them to sign Alex Smith.  

 

 

[Mania]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This team doesn't seem to play in FA much regardless of context and when they do they make many bad decisions.    I recall Bruce crowing about replacing Garcon and D Jax with Pryor and Quick and implying they'd be fine.    Supposedly coaches wanted to dump Norman in the off season, which would have saved cap room, Jay supposedly (according to Russell) wanted to keep Crowder but they let him go.  They'd have had the money to keep him especially if they let Norman go.

 

I get the argument that some are making that Kirk is too fancy of a toy for a team like the Redskins to keep, let a team who knows what they are doing like the Vikings play with the fancier toys.   But if they made a deal even at the 24 million cap figure, it would have been a bargain by today's market.  Kirk's roster here wasn't that hot.  I think Kirk with Peterson-Guice would have been a heck of a lot better than Perine and Rob Kelley.  

 

It is what it is.  And I agree with those who say it's not worth crying about it but to me I only agree with that in a vacuum.  My one and only interest in it is that the dude who bungled that negotiation is still in charge and is bungling more.  And if it pains Bruce to see Kirk do well (as some like Sheehan say) then it gives me joy to see Kirk do well.  Once Bruce leaves (if ever) I won't give a hoot.  How he handled Trent proves to me that Bruce learned nothing from the Kirk negotiation including how to get trade value. 

 

 

On an aside, am reading some of these tweets, Vikings fans pushing hard for Kirk for league MVP.  I think they would be disappointed.  Kirk thus far is having a great season.   But IMO no way he's beating Lamar Jackson.   Also, he's bound to cool down eventually, it's tough for QBs to stay this hot. 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

yards is a ridiculous way of measuring how good a QB is as is passer rating which is so antiquated.  Yards per attempt is much better and maybe QBR, but quarterback rating is really ridiculous.   

 

 

 

[ananoman]

4 hours ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Bottom line, Dan never warmed up to Cousins.  Can anyone honestly sit here and tell me if RGIII had passed for 12000 + yards and a 82 TD -36 int ratio his final 3 seasons here he would not have been offered a mega contract ?

 

 

 

Agreed- Like I said before, Cousins was a victim of cognitive bias.  He wasn't a high draft pick, he was an afterthought in the year that RG3 was drafted.  Never was respected by the Skins

[Taylor 36]

8 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said:

ok, 3 yrs 84m.   You get the point and he wasn't worth that money at all.  Skins did the right thing letting him walk.  If the skins were better at utilizing the draft and when I talk about utilizing the draft, I'm talking about consistently hitting on day 3 picks like the Baltimore Ravens do, then maybe they will be a better franchise.   When they let Cousins walk, even prior to letting Cousins walk, they should have drafted a QB that could have stepped in and played.  This forced them to sign Alex Smith.  

 

So No, the did the right thing letting Cousins walk.  The only reason Cousins is doing well is because of the players around him and no, he didn't improve the team from a 1-3 team to a 7-8.  That's your opinion, but that didn't happen and it's funny you actually think that.  

It is funny how blinded you are by your hatred of Cousins. His last year here, the team was more decimated by injuries than it ever has been since the "Body Bag" game.  We were literally playing people that we pulled in off the street, and most of the talent level that was left on the field that had been in the locker room from week 1 wasn't worth bragging about at all.  We still got to 7-9.  No running game to speak of.  Porous O-line.  Rickety defense.  Cousins raised the level of the players around him to help get to that record.  If you want to say that Cousins didn't raise the level of the players around him, then that would mean he did it all on his own, which would make him damn near elite.  So, either way, we screwed the pooch.  And, you can't have it both ways.  Either he was a great QB held back by a crap organization and roster, or he was a good QB that raised the level of play of second, third, and even fourth string players.

 

Trent Williams talked about Cousins leading the team and getting more out of the offense back then as well.  And, even before 2017, it was reported how much the o-line preferred to have Cousins behind center than RGIII back in the day.  Do you think that was because they preferred Kirk's cologne?  No, it was because he helped them and the offense succeed.  Look at the players that have been here not only during the Cousins' years, but with other QB's as well.  Look at how much better they performed with Cousins under center.  That isn't an opinion; that's a fact.

 

And , the FO wasn't "forced" to sign Alex Smith.  You're right that they (Bruce Allen mostly) put themselves in an absurd position because of how they handled the situation, but the Alex Smith trade and contract extension wasn't closed to forced on them.  They had other options, including drafting a QB and/or getting a FA QB that wouldn't have required a trade (of course, this is when you'll come in and say that good QB's don't hit free agency, and my response is "DING, DING, DING" - that's part of what makes the whole Cousins saga so absurd; HE should have never been a FA to begin with, and by the fact that players like him don't hit FA, the price/demand was going to be high).  They had no foresight or plan, which is typical of this organization, but again, they had options but chose to go the most expensive route.  Very ironic considering we're talking about Cousins' contract, hmm? A contract that was inflated by the actions of Bruce Allen, nonetheless. One opinion I will give, that I feel is pretty close to fact, is that if Bruce Allen wasn't here, Kirk Cousins would have had no problem signing here, and it would have been a favorable contract for both parties.

[DazedSkinsfan]

22 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

How could anyone watch the NFL and not put McCaffrey near the top?

I bet if he played for Dallas he'd be #1 on that list