FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 2/26/2020 at 5:06 PM, mistertim said:

 

I mean...let's be fair here. Tua was on a team even more stacked than Burrow was for his entire college career. He was behind a very good line and literally throwing to 3 legit 1st round NFL wide receivers in Jeudy, Ruggs, and Smith, who were going up against DBs who will probably never play a down in the league. He was on a completely loaded offense. Now, was he part of it being loaded? Obviously. But that doesn't change that he had a stable full of elite level college receivers to toss to. 

 

As far as Tua being healthy, to me it's still a toss up. Someone can be medically cleared but not be the same football player he was before an injury. And that was a pretty bad injury. It's like taking a RB who's coming off of a season ending ACL injury. He might be medically cleared but whether he'll be the same guy simply can't be known until you seem him play in a live game again. 

 

This is why I was not onboard with Tua even before this latest injury.  Like the USC QBs when they had it rolling none of them panned out when they no longer had the best talent at their disposal.  

[goskins10]

The smear campaign on Haskins is really ramping up. It will help test his mental strength.  But Riddick should just shut his mouth.  No reason for him to make that statement even if true.  I could care less what someone salty who is not here anymore thinks.  
 

and no I am not ignoring that there are some questions about Haskins.  But took a cheap shot for clicks.  
 

maybe he is salty for not getting the GM job here.  If so then it was a good choice.  
 

with even minimal support dyslexia is a non-issue.  I think whoever said that was trying be funny.  It was not funny.  Just ignorant.  

 

[HTTRDynasty]

It’s probably former fan favorite Jim Tomsula leaking all this garbage. He works for the enemy now 😡.  Lol. 

[DJHJR86]

53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ok.  Dyslexia if so IMO isn't a big deal.  A lot of famous people have it.     

 

Dyslexia is new, but Czaban alluded to it on his show last year:

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

But Riddick should just shut his mouth.  No reason for him to make that statement even if true.  I

 

 

Riddick has admitted in segments that he's close with the Haskins family.   I don't think it helps Haskins for him to constantly double down and reminding people that the coaches weren't all in on him.  I don't mind some carrot-stick positivity negativity (good cop-bad cop) used to push players especially young ones.  But the coaches didn't want him narrative doesn't accomplish IMO any of that.  

 

The other problem with Riddick by continually dwelling on that specific angle is it empowers Dan.  I get the idea of having Haskins' back but not from the angle he's using to do it.  What was leaked at the time was BOTH most in the FO and coaching staff didn't want Haskins at 15.  There are multiple competing narratives as for why but trustworthy reporters like Keim have echoed that. 

 

Keim had a sneaky gossipy report not long ago about how he heard from someone that Dan would parade around Redskins Park during the last college season saying Haskins in the best player in college football.  My point here is regardless of how we feel about Haskins.  The idea of backing the owner overruling the FO and coaching in the draft and to even be indignant about it in the defense of the move like Riddick is doing is at best weird IMO and at worst it comes off that he's lobbying for a job with Dan by continually kissing his butt by continually pushing this angle. 

 

Heck there are a bunch of a prospects I love but count me out of Kyle Smith and the coaches disagree with me and Dan overrules them regardless of how I personally feel about said prospect.  IMO that's a screwed up process.  But nonetheless, its spilled milk.  It's irrelevant now and it's old news.  But I don't see how Riddick embraces the high ground by continually reminding people about this point. 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heck there are a bunch of a prospects I love but count me out of Kyle Smith and the coaches disagree with me and Dan overrules them regardless of how I personally feel about said prospect.  IMO that's a screwed up process.  But nonetheless, its spilled milk.  It's irrelevant now and it's old news.  But I don't see how Riddick embraces the high ground by continually reminding people about this point.

 

Here's where I stand on this point ... all that matters to me in past context is how Kyle Smith thought of Haskins long-term last year and now. Because he's now our defacto GM. Obviously Ron too, but I am speaking toward the mindset of last year's leadership.

 

Gruden was in Year 6 of 6 and was very clearly on the hot seat. He needed/wanted instant playmakers. Of COURSE he didn't want to spend a valuable 1st round pick on a QB. He was in desperate win-now mode, which is terrible place for the organization and the coaching staff to be in. Very short-sighted.

 

The Front Office (Bruce, etc.) may have felt the exact same way. Hot seat. Need instant impact guys. Need to win now. Haskins needs a year of sitting before he can een be thought of as the starting QB. 2020 is the earliest he should play, and by then he can't help us if we are fired.

 

I get it. Dan is probably looking long-term. Keenum aint my answer. Smith probbaly won't play again. I need the future of this franchise here and now to build around.

 

The mistake Dan made was, after the Smith injury, not just turning over a new leaf and moving on to a front office and coaching staff that would look toward the good of the team.

 

Of course the FO and coaching staff didn't want Dwayne. He was a project QB on a team that needed to win immediately for everyone to retain their jobs.

 

Also, signing off on moving up from R2 and giving up a 2020 draft asset to get the playmaker (Sweat) that the coaching staff probably wanted ... was a compromise to last year's regime.

[DJHJR86]

RG3 led the team to a division and the majority of the fan base was okay with moving on from him just 2 years later.  Haskins has played 6 good quarters of football and hasn't won anything, but the majority of fans (at least the ones on the internet) are petrified of the thought of drafting another quarterback.  It really makes no sense to me.  

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Here's where I stand on this point ... all that matters to me in past context is how Kyle Smith thought of Haskins. Because he's now our defacto GM. Obviously Ron too, but I am speaking toward the mindset of last year's leadership.

 

 

I don't even think that matters anymore.  As we know it's not like anyone's draft projections = reality.  Sometimes it translates that way, sometimes it doesn't.  So it would be what does Kyle think of Haskins now.

 

As for the past, I've heard two different beat reporters and one radio guy say they heard Kyle graded him as a 2nd rounder and didn't want him at 15.  Sheehan said it on his podcast right around the draft and asked Keim if heard the same and Keim said yes. 

 

But what Kyle or anybody in that building thinks of their players now, I presume is likely at least somewhat different than previously.  I recall Hoffman for example say talking to their scouts they were high on McLaurin but didn't think he would be that good, etc.  Ditto with Haskins I'd bet Kyle's opinion if anything evolved over the season and unlikely just mirrors his predraft thoughts.

 

So I liked a lot what Kyle said publicly this week about Haskins.  One radio guy said he heard that it doesn't completely match his private thoughts.  But who knows.  All we can do is trust what we hear or not.    My rule of thumb on that front is do I hear it from many people who cover the team both locally and nationally and if that's the case and Keim kicks in too.  I tend to trust it. 

 

18 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Of course the FO and coaching staff didn't want Dwayne. He was a project QB on a team that needed to win immediately for everyone to retain their jobs.

 

That rumor was they didn't grade Haskins as a mid first round prospect but as a 2nd rounder.  There were other NFL insider types like Banner who said he heard teams had 2nd-3rd ground grades on him.  And then there were some teams that clearly had first round grades him.   We all got our opinions on prospects, obviously our takes aren't gospel.    If we sat in front of Kyle right now and I'd list for example my favorite top 10 prospects, I doubt he'd tell me spot on and that he agrees with everything. 

 

My point here is that I recall at that time when Haskins was picked that there was some disbelief that the FO wouldn't see it the same way as we do -- positive or negative.  I disagree with that thought process.  I for example practically have violins going about some prospects on the draft thread but I wouldn't be shocked if Kyle doesn't see it all the same way.  The one crystal clear thing from what the beat guys have heard is Dan was in love with him as a prospect. 

 

And my issue with Riddick is why keep dwelling on who loved Haskins or not when he was taken (that's the past and irrelevant to now) because my take is that process was flawed and shouldn't be celebrated or indignantly defended.  And that has nothing to do with what I think about a player.  I don't care what player it is.  I don't want the owner interjecting and overriding anyone. But yeah I do agree with your point that if the quick fix would be coloring the coaching staff's thinking process at the time then just get rid of that coaching staff.    That's also on the owner not the coaches. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Leaks are very clearly Bruce .. maybe Jay ... and people in their circles. I think it’s bad form to share anything those guys say now that they’re gone. Surprised by Lou on that one. 

I doubt it’s Jay, actually.  For all the grief I gave him, he doesn’t strike me as the malicious type.  Besides, his plan with Haskins was not to play him anyway, and I doubt he really sees Haskins as the reason he was fired.  
 

Bruce on the other hand, that would be on brand. 100%.
 

As far as the wordy system, all WCOs take time to pick up.  MANY players have come out and said the wordiest offense is Andy Reid’s.  Jay is off that tree.  It is what it is.  It takes time to pick it up.  I would also say Reid’s offense is one of the most Innovative out there.   
 

The key for a young QB picking up the system is that it is introduced to him progressively, and drilled both in the classroom and on the field.  It takes a lot of reps.  And you can’t just toss the playbook at somebody in total and expect them to grasp it.  
 

I think the biggest mistake was pairing a coach who had to win with a QB who needed a lot of work.  Jay’s approach really was to just ignore Haskins and banked on Colt to win games.  Colt screwed that plan by being hurt, as he often was. Jay really had no incentive to develop Haskins.  He needed to win and then deal with everything else later.
 

Callahan had more of an incentive, though not by much.  Haskins started playing more because of necessity.  But he said as soon as he took the job, Callahan said he put in place a plan to develop Haskins, which hadn’t existed up to that point. 
 

Ron and company, if they decide not to draft Tua or Burrow, have a HUGE incentive to develop Haskins.

 

 

[Hooper]

9 hours ago, RawRebel said:

It's funny how the black quarterback's intelligence always gets questioned. 

 

Totally. Czabe is especially quick on this trigger.

[DJHJR86]

Gottlieb is based out of LA, correct?  Who's currently coaching in the LA area?

[KDawg]

51 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

 

Also, signing off on moving up from R2 and giving up a 2020 draft asset to get the playmaker (Sweat) that the coaching staff probably wanted ... was a compromise to last year's regime.

 

Sure, because the football guys wanted Sweat at 15 and not Haskins. So the compromise was really drafting Haskins for Snyder and trading back in for the guy the football people wanted.

 

We'd be in a different place as a franchise had we not traded up and just taken Sweat at 15.

 

I'm not going to say better or worse, I don't know how Haskins will ultimately pan out. But different... for sure.

[volsmet]

3 minutes ago, Hooper said:

 

Totally. Czabe is especially quick on this trigger.

If I defecated Czabe’s iq — I’d sew my ass shut. 

[Hooper]

O'Connell is super close to the media. It got him overhyped as the next McVay when he hadn't done jack. 

 

Now he's basically McVay's chauffeur here in Socal and is probably pissed.Wouldn't surprise me if he was leaking left and right.

 

Jay... he doesn't seem like the type. Plus, I'm reasonably sure he's thrilled to be OC in Jax and not still captain of a dumpster fire.

[dyst]

Too much smoke on Haskins. It's quite easy if he wants to shut the narrative down, be smarter and play better. 

[KDawg]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So I liked a lot what Kyle said publicly this week about Haskins.  One radio guy said he heard that it doesn't completely match his private thoughts.  But who knows.  All we can do is trust what we hear or not.    My rule of thumb on that front is do I hear it from many people who cover the team both locally and nationally and if that's the case and Keim kicks in too.  I tend to trust it. 

 

I'd imagine Kyle likes him, thinks he can be the guy, worried that he will be. Most (read: almost all) rookies struggle at the QB position. But some show more glimpses into the future and ability as a quarterback than Haskins has. Haskins played two great games. But he had no real "wow" moments in those games. I don't think (and I know you don't think) that's unreasonable. 

 

My biggest "thing" with Haskins is simply that he didn't show enough to say he's "The guy". He also didn't show so little that he can be definitely called "not the guy". He sits in a gray area. Which is ****ing hard to project.

 

That rumor was they didn't grade Haskins as a mid first round prospect but as a 2nd rounder.  There were other NFL insider types like Banner who said he heard teams had 2nd-3rd ground grades on him.  And then there were some teams that clearly had first round grades him.   

 

Dwayne being so hyped up was partly the issue with his start. Had he come in here as a second, third round kind of guy, his leash would be a lot more.

 

My point here is that I recall at that time when Haskins was picked that there was some disbelief that the FO wouldn't see it the same way as we do -- positive or negative.  I disagree with that thought process.  I for example practically have violins going about some prospects on the draft thread but I wouldn't be shocked if Kyle doesn't see it all the same way.  The one crystal clear thing from what the beat guys have heard is Dan was in love with him as a prospect.

 

Agree entirely. Kyle has something we don't, even IF we were as good as he is, and I won't give us that kind of credit... he works for a NFL franchise. We don't. Is it possible we have some folks who could do it? Sure. But as far as I know, none of us are Kyle. And that something he has? He's in the building. He knows and sees this franchise in a different way than we do. Through the dark years and through now. That information is a big, big deal. 

 

[Llevron]

I am curious what they would have done with the pick that would have saved Jays job! 

[Riggo#44]

54 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

As far as the wordy system, all WCOs take time to pick up.  MANY players have come out and said the wordiest offense is Andy Reid’s.  Jay is off that tree.  It is what it is.  It takes time to pick it up.  I would also say Reid’s offense is one of the most Innovative out there.

 

I said it before, I'll say it again. I wonder what the conversation around Mahomes would have been if he had to start in his 1st season?

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Agree entirely. Kyle has something we don't, even IF we were as good as he is, and I won't give us that kind of credit... he works for a NFL franchise. We don't. Is it possible we have some folks who could do it? Sure. But as far as I know, none of us are Kyle. And that something he has? He's in the building. He knows and sees this franchise in a different way than we do. Through the dark years and through now. That information is a big, big deal. 

 

 

Yes, agree.  I try to keep an open mind as for what THEY think about players.  I loved listening to Hoffman in particular because he seemed to have good sources to their scouts.    They have interviewed these players, these players coaches, trainers, etc and dived much deeper than we can on the prospects.  And even with all that they get plenty wrong.  So our takes on said players are interesting opinions and heck we are sometimes right.  And look I throw my opinion out there as much as anyone and love it when i am right and not so much when I am not.   And I am entertained to read everyone's opinion.      

 

The cool thing though is with Kyle in charge we know this dude is good at his job.  It was different when Bruce ran things.  I'd take just about anybody's opinion here over that dude (Bruce).  So bringing this back to Haskins, whatever Kyle feels about him and decides to do one way or another, I am 100% behind it.  My main take is they should have everything on the table and it looks like they indeed do.

 

On that note, Albert Breer, who is pretty plugged in was just on 106.7.  he said he knows a bunch of teams see Tua as a left handed version of Drew Brees.  The main pause about him is health.  He said something to the effect that they want to see Haskins grow up some but he's likely indeed doing so. If they see Tua as a mega talent they'd likely consider.

[bowhunter]

I also have SexDaily  I mean DySlexia

[KDawg]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

I said it before, I'll say it again. I wonder what the conversation around Mahomes would have been if he had to start in his 1st season?

 

We'll never know.

 

But truthfully, this team shouldn't have drafted Dwayne Haskins. And I'm not saying that as someone that is a "hater".

 

Given reports, we know our football people didn't think of him as a top end guy. They had him as a 2nd/3rd. Our football people wanted Sweat. Snyder wanted Haskins. We drafted Haskins at 15, then traded back into the first using our second rounder to get the guy the football guys wanted.

 

Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that drafting him was bad or not. I have no idea. I really don't. But a good franchise who had those guys ranked that way doesn't wind up with Dwayne Haskins in the first round.

 

Now, the real point of that back information:

 

Haskins then isn't put in a position where the coach has literally no reason to want to play/develop him. Gruden didn't want him - of course not. Why would you want a project QB when you need to save your job right now? A different situation may net him in a better position, but that is a Bruce Allen/Dan Snyder failing. 

 

The other issue: Haskins didn't excel as a backup. He only became "ready" as he was named the starter. He's not meticulous in film study. Mahomes, by all accounts, is. And was. 

 

You can't really compare the two. 

 

And this team has cannibalized Haskins due to the former staff. He was put in an extremely unfair position. And it has continued to be exactly that. Unfair. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

John Keim on the Junks this morning said EXACTLY what I have been trying to say this entire time.

 

If Dwayne had not come out 2 years early --- had gone back to Ohio State and, on a more loaded team, put up similar numbers en route to a Heisman-finalist type of season ... what sort of discussion would we be having right now about the QBs at the top of this draft. And use that as context for whether or not to take another QB at 2, or take the BPA in Chase.

 

My read on that is this ... Haskins goes back for his R-Jr. year ... has another monster season. Heisman finalist, likely playoff team. Tua gets hurt. Burrow breaks out. Everything is the same other than Haskins track.

 

The conversation would be ... who is better ... Burrow or Dwayne. Dwaybe beat out Burrow at OSU. Dwayne is a year younger, and has 2 huge years of stats under his belt, while Burrow only has 1 historic season. Dwayne has shown it longer. Now maybe the conversation would still favor Burrow ... "He did it in a pro-style offense, he's older and more pro-ready ... Dwayne ran a simpler offense at Ohio State and will need time to adjust" ... fine

 

But you'd be talking about 3-4 guys (lumping in Herbert) that could be Top 5 picks.

 

Now tell me ... under that scenario would you be sitting here saying "draft Tua" ... or "holy crap I wish we could take #2 and turn it into #3 and #4 so we could take Chase AND the best QB that falls between Burrow/Tua/Haskins. THAT IS THE EXACT POSITION WE ARE IN, except we already have Haskins.

 

THAT is why this is all silly to me.

 

Haskins ... if he were on Joe Burrow's college track ... would be coming off 2 massive seasons at Ohio State and looking to have a 3rd. Meanwhile, at LSU, Burrow was coming off a mediocre season after transferring from Ohio State where he lost out to Haskins, not yet having had his historic R-Sr. Season.

 

And at the end of the day, that is what this boils down to for me. Haskins + Chase >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tua.

 

Dwayne at 21: Entering the NFL

Burrow at 21: Entering his R-Jr. Season at LSU where he would put ok decent numbers that would have media scouts putting R3-5 numbers on him

Tua at 21: everyone tanking for him. But the inury stuff is too unsettling for me.

[KDawg]

Or, what if he wasn't as good and got benched for Sam Fields? I mean, hypotheticals are hypothetical. It's fair, for sure. But Haskins mechanical issues would still be on display. He put up 50 TDs and we all knew he had some issues. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Or, what if he wasn't as good and got benched for Sam Fields? I mean, hypotheticals are hypothetical. It's fair, for sure. But Haskins mechanical issues would still be on display. He put up 50 TDs and we all knew he had some issues. 

Welll ... Justin Fields is not going to Ohio State in the transfer portal if they hadn't just lost Haskins. He's going somewhere else.

 

Fields transferred out of Georgia because he wasn't overtaking Fromm and wanted a chance to play. OSU with Haskins wasn't gonna be the place to do that.

[KDawg]

Just now, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Welll ... Justin Fields is not going to Ohio State in the transfer portal if they hadn't just lost Haskins. He's going somewhere else.

 

Fields transferred out of Georgia because he wasn't overtaking Fromm and wanted a chance to play. OSU with Haskins wasn't gonna be the place to do that.

 

Justin, Sam, what's the difference?

 

Okay, but my point was more along the lines of: Haskins would likely still have mechanical issues and its entirely possible he could have struggled.

 

If he put up Heisman numbers and showed that he worked on his mechanics? He's a totally different quarterback. So the discussion changes tone immediately.