FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Llevron]

12 minutes ago, max21 said:

I hope we cut Richardson,Norman and Reed. Clear up the cap a bit and sign a solid FA WR. Go DB, TE and offensive line early in draft. Unless Young is there  

 

How we gonna get draft picks without Norman out there throwing games though? 

[dicksogj]

7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

OL about to get real young and green too.  Same for the backfield.

 

We will take lumps but it's a group that has talent and they can grow up together.  Haskins can become their leader.  We've got to get some more bodies though.  The OL isn't good enough and neither is the wr group.

 

I think that a huge part of this is either totally getting rid of Allen or putting him in a role where he has no say in personnel decisions.  Otherwise I am afraid of the team holding on to players who need to move on & are eating up lots of salary cap space - Reed, Davis, Norman, Kerrigan & yes possibly even Scherff (& also to logically figure out how to handle the Alex Smith situation).  I just worry that Allen will retain the wrong guys since he will view it in an emotional manner & want to retain some of "his guys".  He has a terrible track record in this area.   His whole take of "we are close" should be reason enough to kick him to the curb.  Hopefully this is one of the few times where Snyder does the rt thing.

 

[Burgold]

22 minutes ago, max21 said:

I hope we cut Richardson,Norman and Reed. Clear up the cap a bit and sign a solid FA WR. Go DB, TE and offensive line early in draft. Unless Young is there  

I think I disagree about receiver. I like Harmon, McClauren, and Simms as a core. I don't even mind Quinn as a back up. In terms of cap dollars, I don't really want to spend on receiver yet even though probably our most successful free agents/trades have been wide receivers such as Garcon, Jackson, Moss, etc.

[dicksogj]

26 minutes ago, max21 said:

I hope we cut Richardson,Norman and Reed. Clear up the cap a bit and sign a solid FA WR. Go DB, TE and offensive line early in draft. Unless Young is there  

 

Agree & I believe that fans would be totally pissed off if either Norman or Reed are brought back.  Reed needs to be gone both for his own & the team's sake.  I would also say that if Scherff wants a ton of money then you simply let him go elsewhere. This team has to stop simply planning only for the upcoming season & I believe that may be impossible as long as Allen is in control.

[Llevron]

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think I disagree about receiver. I like Harmon, McClauren, and Simms as a core. I don't even mind Quinn as a back up. In terms of cap dollars, I don't really want to spend on receiver yet even though probably our most successful free agents/trades have been wide receivers such as Garcon, Jackson, Moss, etc.

 

The other side to that is, maybe with a WR like Terry on a rookie deal now is the time to spend money on the best one FA can get us. Not like a Richardson thing where he could break out in the right position. One where we pay all the $$$ we have to, to secure one of the best players in the game and then have two for basically a deal. 

 

The problem is that, at a quick glance, I dont see anyone out there like that. Atnonio Brown is the best one by a mile and hes insane. No one else is really far and away obviously worth the money. Imho obviously  

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

I would definitely address TE before WR. I think the WR group could be good enough if there were one or two good/decent TEs. Just need a little veteran depth for the WR group. 

 

The problem with the WR group for me is the size and physicality.  Terry is great, but aside from him, Harmon is the only big body worth keeping who can be physical, particularly in the run game.  That's not enough depth IMO.  I'd love to get another big receiver who can block, especially someone who can play outside or inside.  Someone like Tylan Wallace would be ideal.  He can play multiple spots, including lining up on the line outside, and you can actually run behind him in the outside game.

 

Running back is another spot with major room for improvement, but we might have answers already on the roster.  An outside zone runner would nice.  Take some of the pressure of the line to establish a functional ground game.

 

Our tight ends are not good, but the reason I'm not as hard up for them as other positions is because Haskins's playstyle seems to indicate that he functions better in a spread and that he likes to go to his receivers.  I think he's better at working with a spaced out field and getting the inside pass production from receivers running crossing concepts.  If you go back to his season at Ohio State, they stayed in spread formations continuously and the tight end was minimally utilized.  Luke Farrell is a good player, but he was only 8th in receptions and yardage on the roster.  The top six in production were all receivers and seventh was Dobbins.  I think the tight ends we add should be capable slot players rather than in-line guys.  We can get an outside zone game working well even without a lot of traditional tight end formations if we have the blocking capacity in our receiver group, which is why I think blocking is such an important skill set for our group.  We want DBs on the field and we want them out by the numbers.

 

The biggest potential upgrade is on the line though, IMO.  We don't have enough athleticism in the group and we might lose Scherff on top of that issue.  Guys like Flowers and Moses aren't lousy, but they're jags.  Penn is probably playing his final games and Christian is a gamble.   The unit is functional, but they're duct-taped together and when we lose Callahan's coaching, I think the wheels could come off quickly unless we can find another great coach for them.  We need some difference makers, especially if we want to establish this run-heavy identity to help our young quarterback out while he develops as a player.

[skinny21]

6 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think the script has been to blitz him (from kinda random places) and confuse him to mess up his blocking / timing. That's why I loved seeing us go to Sims more because he was consistently winning the underneath routes and provided an outlet for Haskins. Now that he's on tape not just winning those routes but winning them and getting the ball delivered to him, I think teams will take away both McLaurin and him and then Haskins will either not be blitzed as much, have one of them as options, or have to throw to another option (Harmon). 

 

Absolutely.  I feel like the game plan focused more on quick passes and targeting weaker dbs which helped avoid the rush.  I actually expected Schwartz to blitz (creatively) more than he did.  

6 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I was so excited we signed Caleb Wilson. I don't know much about his abilities but in the draft I liked him as a late round guy because he had speed and production at a big college. Given that he was signed off another teams practice squad late in the week I figured he'd be inactive this week but maybe he gets some chances before the year is out. It will be interesting to see how the split in snaps went between Sprinkle, Hentges and the FB because for a second game in a row they weren't really a part of the passing game. I will give Sprinkle props because he did have two catches and no drops. But I think Wilson could be a nice roster stash at the end of the year and somebody to help us going into next year. 

 

Yep.  I’d still target a good FA TE, but now Wilson, if he develops, gives us another potential weapon at the position.

6 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

This. 

 

I saw the HB Toss play and I was like AP is running a toss? But I was mistaken because the announcer called him AP. It was Ferguson. That was like a 6 yard run and I was like "this guy has potential". I know nothing about his ability to break tackles, pick up blocks or catch passes but I am more intrigued in him than Smallwood right now. 

I mean, Ferguson deserves very few words considering how little he was used, but I was pleasantly surprised.  As I said, if he can take that mid round draft pick at rb off the board... great.  

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

4 rushes for 26 yards?  An option?  Passing on early downs??

 

I am kind of shocked... who is calling plays.  I wish we would have seen this in his first game and every game.

I was pretty impressed with the play calling.  Kinda feels like we were hanging onto these tendency breakers for a divisional opponent (or maybe it just worked out that way).  I always mentioned with Gruden that I don’t mind having a tendency, as long as you break it at opportune times.  Don’t feel like he did a good job with that.  A big pet peeve (and this hasn’t changed as of yet) is going for the big play after a turnover.  Minimal gain on a 1st down run play after a momentum shift always feels like such a letdown.  

33 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

I wonder if Kerrigan is on his way out too.

My assumption is no unless a serious GM is brought in that can say no to Snyder.  I don’t really mind letting Kerrigan stick for his last year as our OLBs are unsettled.  If we land Chase Young though, I’d see if we could get a pick for Kerrigan.  

21 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think I disagree about receiver. I like Harmon, McClauren, and Simms as a core. I don't even mind Quinn as a back up. In terms of cap dollars, I don't really want to spend on receiver yet even though probably our most successful free agents/trades have been wide receivers such as Garcon, Jackson, Moss, etc.

Right there with you on spending (on receiver) given who we’ve got - and I’d add Cam Sims to that list.  I also don’t like the idea of paying your depth more than your starters.  
 

@llevron - you make a good point, but 1) we have a fair number of re-signs, both this year and over the next three years, and 2) this is a deep wr draft.  I’d prefer to take advantage of the draft, continue with the youth movement, and roll our cap with an eye to the future.  As someone else mentioned, it would be great to have a FO looking beyond next year...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Certainly encouraged by Haskins yesterday and I've been a critique of his on here.  Granted the Eagles defense isn't a great test but if we can see him put up similar performances against the Giants and Cowboys in the last two games, that would be extremely encouraging heading into the offseason.

 

I'm looking for:

 

65% completion percentage (give or take a few percentage points....ideally at least above 60%)

2:1 TD/INT ratio

 

Giants defense is ranked 25th, Cowboys are 7th overall and 8th against the pass.  Here's hoping he can light up the Giants and hold his own against Dallas.  

[skinny21]

I’m expecting a good game against the Giants, but Dallas is going to be really rough, IMO.  If Haskins can hold his own vs them, I’ll be impressed.  
 

@stevemcqueen1

So I hear ya on Haskins favoring receivers over TEs, but prior to this game it felt like he looked Sprinkle’s way a good bit.  I’m down with more spread looks, but to your point, I’d want to see a beefed up oline before we do so.  Ideally, I’d like to draft a receiver and sign a good TE in FA.  Would give us a bit more flexibility IMO (which would be especially helpful to a new coach).  
 

The problem I run into is can we address oline and receiver without a 2nd round pick?  And what if we luck into Chase, where do we find a tackle then?  
I’m hoping trading Williams will help (or even convincing him to to play next year).  If Young is off the board, I’d be pushing hard for a small trade back to land one of the other tackles and gain a pick or two as well.  

[Burgold]

I'm with @skinny21. Relatively speaking, Sprinkle has been getting a lot of targets especially considering his hit/miss rate.

[Warhead36]

We don't need an elite TE, just someone who can block and make the occasional catch and steal first downs here and there with cheap 7-8 yard plays.

 

But good TEs are available in the middle rounds everywhere. Guys like Kelce, Kittle, even our own Reed were drafted in the 3rd round.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

The problem I run into is can we address oline and receiver without a 2nd round pick?  And what if we luck into Chase, where do we find a tackle then?  
 I’m hoping trading Williams will help (or even convincing him to to play next year).  If Young is off the board, I’d be pushing hard for a small trade back to land one of the other tackles and gain a pick or two as well.  

 

We can't realistically find a year one starter at tackle without a first or second round pick.  Bulaga is the only interesting FA at the position and I imagine it'd be tough to sell him on a rebuilding team versus staying put.  And then in the draft, the tackle class looks top heavy with like seven guys who will probably go in the first two rounds.  That's where the real upside guys of the class represent value.  It's not out of the question to get a good one in the third or fourth since it's a deep year at the position, but they're probably either going to be an interior switch candidate like Throckmorton, injured like Niang, or a weight problem guy like Becton.  They're going to be warty.

 

We need to maneuver around to get into position to take advantage of the tackle group and get some value in the process.  And we also need to make sure we maintain the coaching resources to successfully develop a raw player because a lot of the really good tackles in this year's class have some project in them.

 

Interior OL is pretty solid this year and WR is flat out great.  I think we can find really nice players at these positions late on Day 2 and throughout Day 3 and get great value from them in the process.

 

I would love to see us address the secondary in free agency so we can get some guys ready to go right away, and then trade Trent and use our draft picks to really scoop up some value in this very nice OL and WR and HB class.  Complete the young core around Haskins and have them grow up together and become a well-balanced offense with high end players at quarterback, guard, tackle, wide receiver, and running back.

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I’m hoping trading Williams will help (or even convincing him to to play next year).  If Young is off the board, I’d be pushing hard for a small trade back to land one of the other tackles and gain a pick or two as well.  

 

I think the biggest flaw in the draft is that fans (and maybe teams and scouts and analysts too) overvalue the higher rounds too much. I'm probably the opposite because I think there's so much capital in the lower rounds and UDFAs that just takes good scouting. I enjoyed the 90s teams and the one thing I was so used to was sucking in the first round of the draft, but then finding some guys to outperform their draft status in the lower rounds. 

 

The problem with saying this is that the guys that are lower round guys either dropped because

 - they're injured, 

 - they came from a small school, 

 - they have all the measurables but underperformed, 

 - they're raw 

 - etc. 

 

Right now we have a roster full of guys who can be considered steals or good value in the draft (McLaurin, Sims, Harmon, Roullier, Ioannidis, Holcomb, Moreau, Nicholson, Martin, Thompson, Reed, SDH, Settle, Apke, Christian, Moses). And that varies across position. These guys aren't all pros but they've shown they can play in this league and can make plays in this league. I'm a much bigger fan of filling a roster full of these type of guys who have a chip on their shoulder because they were drafted low (or undrafted) vs having a high first round pick who's now expected to be this elite player that he never lives up to. 

 

Heck look at the production we've gotten from RG3, Sweat, Allen, Haskins, Scherff, Payne, Doctson, etc. Contrast that with the expectations that we put on them. Its great that only Doctson is a legit bust, but who has lived up to our expectations? There will always be things like Payne vs James or (in the second round) or Demarcus Lawrence vs Trent Murphy or JJ Watt vs Kerrigan, but the two best players in the 2012 draft were arguably Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner (neither a first round pick), Michael Schwartz may be the best tackle taken and he was a second rounder. The best player in 2010 was Antonio Brown (6th) and Geno Atkins (4th). 

 

Its definitely not a slam dunk but I think Kyle Smith can find some gems in the lower rounds. 

[RandyHolt]

5050 split on run pass on first downs...

 

I wonder if Urban Meyer up in the booth got the attention of our coaches, who thought better of the 1970's run run pass offense we had been running....

 

Urban would be scratching his head like some of us fans have been doing.

[Veryoldschool]

Haskins is progressing and several other rookies are playing well also and I'm going to say it I think Callahan is doing a decent job.

[Veryoldschool]

 

 

 

 

2

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Heck look at the production we've gotten from RG3, Sweat, Allen, Haskins, Scherff, Payne, Doctson, etc. Contrast that with the expectations that we put on them. Its great that only Doctson is a legit bust, but who has lived up to our expectations?

 

I don't know why you have Scherff on this list, he's good and has played very well for the Skins.  It's too early to complain about Haskins or Sweat they are still adjusting to the NFL.  Finally, it is unfair to everyone else to put them in with Griffin who is in his own galaxy.

[PartyPosse]

5 hours ago, Burgold said:

I think I disagree about receiver. I like Harmon, McClauren, and Simms as a core. I don't even mind Quinn as a back up. In terms of cap dollars, I don't really want to spend on receiver yet even though probably our most successful free agents/trades have been wide receivers such as Garcon, Jackson, Moss, etc.

I’d like to sign a seasoned vet just to have around. There’s this guy on Minny coming off his rookie deal that showed flashes in the past. I think his name is a John Doctson or maybe Josh?

[Thinking Skins]

@Veryoldschool Scherff is a guy who's had high expectations - that's all I'm saying. Look at what we've gotten from him with the number of pro bowls and we still have questions of whether we want to re-sign him. Wes Martin came in and played yesterday and we've got radio hosts saying to bench Scherff for the year to see what we've got in Martin. Same goes for Haskins. he's a first round pick and I'm rooting for him, but all year long he's ben compared to guys like Minshew, Kyle Allen, Lock, Finley. Same with Sweat. 

 

I'm not calling any of these guys busts but I'm saying that they have high expectations. Heck with Scherff, the whole argument is that you never get your worth because he's a guard. 

[HTTRDynasty]

I'm sure this tweet will be perceived as a negative by some... but for me, I'm just confused as to why they haven't been doing this all season.

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

6 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I'm sure this tweet will be perceived as a negative by some... but for me, I'm just confused as to why they haven't been doing this all season.

 

 

 

I think we're at a crossroads here between a slowly developing Haskins and a coaching staff that's not sure what Haskins can and can't do yet.  It happened to come together against the Eagles, but there's growing pains for all involved.

[FuriousD]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We don't need an elite TE, just someone who can block and make the occasional catch and steal first downs here and there with cheap 7-8 yard plays.

 

But good TEs are available in the middle rounds everywhere. Guys like Kelce, Kittle, even our own Reed were drafted in the 3rd round.

Assuming Reed and Davis retire (and they should), Skins should be looking at Free Agency to immediately upgrade the position and then the draft for a player to develop. TE is a gaping hole that needs to be filled!

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Kudos to Alex Smith for getting involved and taking the kid under his wing and going through the step by step with him. His influence on him is showing and kudos to the young man for being open and a willing learner.

[MartinC]

7 hours ago, Burgold said:

I think I disagree about receiver. I like Harmon, McClauren, and Simms as a core. I don't even mind Quinn as a back up. In terms of cap dollars, I don't really want to spend on receiver yet even though probably our most successful free agents/trades have been wide receivers such as Garcon, Jackson, Moss, etc.

 

McLaurin is a stud. I like Harmon as well - but right now is a #4 on a good team not a #2. By the start of next season he may have developed beyond a #4 - he's certainly a keeper.

 

I love Simms as a return guy and 5th active receiver but right now he is below replacement level as a slot IMO. We all agree Quinn has no business being on the roster - right?

 

Trey Quinn. 26 catches, 198 yds, 1TD, 7.6 yds per catch and 4.2 yards per target.

 

Steven Simms, 23 catches, 165 yards, 1 TD, 7.2 yards per catch and 4.3 yards per target.

 

All Simms has over Quinn right now as a slot is the athletic ability to at least hope he develops. Quinn is what he is.

[Burgold]

In fairness, @MartinC, Simms was not put on the field as a receiver much this year. Before Quinn got knocked out he was pretty much only used on returns and gadget runs. So, his chance to generate numbers and plays has been limited. That said, you are right that I'm doing a bit of projection with him. I like his speed, quickness, and elusiveness. At the same time albeit with a very limited sample size, he drops too many.

 

It would be very cool if Harmon, Simms, and McClauren all can take another step next year. I think with experience, offseason work, and hopefully better QBing they could continue to impress as a starting trio.

 

 

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

In fairness, @MartinC, Simms was not put on the field as a receiver much this year. Before Quinn got knocked out he was pretty much only used on returns and gadget runs. So, his chance to generate numbers and plays has been limited. That said, you are right that I'm doing a bit of projection with him. I like his speed, quickness, and elusiveness. At the same time albeit with a very limited sample size, he drops too many.

 

It would be very cool if Harmon, Simms, and McClauren all can take another step next year. I think with experience, offseason work, and hopefully better QBing they could continue to impress as a starting trio.

 

 

 

On sample size Quinn has 47 targets and Quinn 38. It's pretty close.

 

His catch percentage is 5% higher than Quinn (55% for Quinn and 60% for Simms) but I think that says more about Quinn than Simms.

 

Simms is a keeper if only as a return guy and if he develops as a slot great. But you can't go into next year with him penciled in to start the way we did with Quinn this year.