MartinC Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said: Sims has 96 yards after catch (compared to Quinn's 56, almost double). And he has a 82 yards rushing (a 65 yard long) with 55 yards after contact and a 91 yard punt return. The one thing I'd be more critical about with Sims is his hands (I said that what scared me the most about his return was his drop of it) but the guy is dangerous with the ball when he gets it in his hand. That's why Gruden had him running gadget plays early in the season instead of developing him as a legit WR. His catch rate is 60% (right in line with the other receivers). Quinn has a 55% catch rate. I suspect the later says more about Quinn’s inability to separate than his hands minds you. Simms has made some really good catches and them lets one he should catch go through his hands. That’s concentration IMO - thinking about what he’s going to do (YAC) not what he is doing (catch the damn ball). 1 minute ago, KDawg said: I didn't find that to be all that relevant. You can use a 6th rounder to find Tom Brady. Or a 1st to find Akili Smith. Really? Your odds of finding the former get better the higher you pick and the odds of finding the later get better the later you pick. That’s at least somewhat relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, MartinC said: Really? Your odds of finding the former get better the higher you pick and the odds of finding the later get better the later you pick. That’s at least somewhat relevant. I'm open to data that suggests otherwise. Tangentially, I would argue that you also have a higher percentage to pick what would be a perceived "bust" in the higher rounds than you do a franchise quarterback. But that comes down to defining terms and wondering if a 6th rounder can even actually bust or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, KDawg said: It's all over the map. I'm not sure varied takes make a guy a blue chip caliber guy, though to be fair, the whole blue chip caliber thing is largely subjective and it varies from person to person. So one guy who is a blue chip to you may not be to me. So in order to have a real conversation, I think you need to look at consensus to use terms like blue chip (though you[meaning anyone reading, not necessarily you] may or may not agree, that's not relevant to the conversation). If using consensus on Haskins, was he really a blue chipper? I guess I'm not sure, but I've seen opinions all over the board, even pre-draft. I'm not real sure where I fall tbh. My default instinctive reaction is to not trust one year starters, but he was so dominant, though. I th iij no sometimes, guys like that have to go to the right org to get the proper training and nurturing. Seemed like from the jump, with a dead man walking at HC, he wasn't getting that, and being a young dude, he started to let it get to him. Light seems to have started to flicker a bit in recent weeks, but like you, I've gotta see more of that these last couple games before I commit to a positive outlook for '20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, KDawg said: I'm open to data that suggests otherwise. Tangentially, I would argue that you also have a higher percentage to pick what would be a perceived "bust" in the higher rounds than you do a franchise quarterback. But that comes down to defining terms and wondering if a 6th rounder can even actually bust or not. From 2017 - but relevant. https://www.betlabssports.com/blog/teams-best-chance-finding-pro-bowl-quarterback-first-round/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, MartinC said: His catch rate is 60% (right in line with the other receivers). Quinn has a 55% catch rate. I suspect the later says more about Quinn’s inability to separate than his hands minds you. Simms has made some really good catches and them lets one he should catch go through his hands. That’s concentration IMO - thinking about what he’s going to do (YAC) not what he is doing (catch the damn ball). Very true and I am high on Sims and think he has that speed that guys like Harmon and C. Sims don't have. He's undersized so thats a negative, but I give him a longer leash because of that speed. That said, his catch rate is a bit disingenuous because he was given so many easy passes under Gruden (so many is a bad term because he wasn't given a lot), but his catches before the last 3 games were almost all quick almost runs. The last 3 games his catch rate is 75%, 57% and 45%., trending down. This could be nothing, but it could indicate that the more he's getting involved and running more complex routes and concepts, the more he's thinking and not catching the ball easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, MartinC said: From 2017 - but relevant. https://www.betlabssports.com/blog/teams-best-chance-finding-pro-bowl-quarterback-first-round/ Website didn't load for me. But draft rounds just indicate perceived value for an individual team. But it may not even mean that. If a team thinks a guy they want is being graded as a 4th rounder by most, even if they think he's a second, they aren't going to take him in the first. Smoke and mirrors and such. It goes without saying that the guys who has a higher perceived ability and physical traits go higher in the draft. So in reference to all positions its likely you have a higher chance to pick a Pro Bowl player there versus other rounds. But I'm not sure what that proves. Hopefully that link works later so I can comment further. Appreciate the discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 57 minutes ago, KDawg said: It goes without saying that the guys who has a higher perceived ability and physical traits go higher in the draft. So in reference to all positions its likely you have a higher chance to pick a Pro Bowl player there versus other rounds. That was the point I was making which you found not relevant. 57 minutes ago, KDawg said: But I'm not sure what that proves. Hopefully that link works later so I can comment further. My contention was that the fact that you really have to use a high draft pick to have a realistic chance of bringing in someone to truly compete with Haskins for the starting spot (or very significant cap space for a free agent) relative to doing the same for Simms was part of my reasoning for wanting to see competition for the slot role but not the QB role for the start of next season. I’d want to use those resources to build around Haskins and take a view at the end of next season on the need (or hopefully lack of need) to seek to replace him or look at alternatives in the 2021 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, MartinC said: My contention was that the fact that you really have to use a high draft pick to have a realistic chance of bringing in someone to truly compete with Haskins for the starting spot (or very significant cap space for a free agent) relative to doing the same for Simms was part of my reasoning for wanting to see competition for the slot role but not the QB role for the start of next season. I’d want to use those resources to build around Haskins and take a view at the end of next season on the need (or hopefully lack of need) to seek to replace him or look at alternatives in the 2021 draft. 100%. The reality is the higher you're drafted the longer your leash is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, MartinC said: That was the point I was making which you found not relevant. My contention was that the fact that you really have to use a high draft pick to have a realistic chance of bringing in someone to truly compete with Haskins for the starting spot (or very significant cap space for a free agent) relative to doing the same for Simms was part of my reasoning for wanting to see competition for the slot role but not the QB role for the start of next season. I’d want to use those resources to build around Haskins and take a view at the end of next season on the need (or hopefully lack of need) to seek to replace him or look at alternatives in the 2021 draft. I still don't find the point relevant. You can find a guy as an UDFA that can go to the hall of fame. You can find a first rounder who should have never been a first rounder. What you evaluated a guy to be previously means jack. What is he now? That's what matters. Is there actual potential that can blossom? Does he actually fit the scheme? I think finding a guy to compete with Haskins would actually be extremely easy to do, to be frank. Question becomes is there enough upside to quell that, or does the team need to pull the trigger. If your point of contention that it costs more (to the tune of a first) because you think Haskins is that good, that makes some sense to me. But I'm not sure where we are with Haskins yet. I'm more encouraged than I was a few weeks ago, though, that's for sure. And I think that's more along the lines of your point reading the above: You think Haskins is good enough that he needs to be provided another year, this time with weapons, to see what we have. Reasonable to be sure. And I'm not sure I'm there with you, but I'm not sure I'm not yet. But I don't think cost makes a difference either way. Scouting and opportunity do, though. That goes for every position. I'm not sure I'm conveying my point well enough here, but I think draft position is just a number based on some stuff that we think matters but really may or may not and it doesn't matter if you find a dude in the 1st or undrafted. JaMarcus Russell exists. So does Andrew Luck. So does Lamar Jackson. And Russell Wilson. And Fred Jackson and London Fletcher. Guys can be found anywhere and everywhere. I'm not convinced you can't find a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th rounder that can't come in and compete with Haskins from day one. The question becomes: How much do you believe in Haskins? 3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said: 100%. The reality is the higher you're drafted the longer your leash is. This is a great point. I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't be a reality. But it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, KDawg said: This is a great point. I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't be a reality. But it is. It’s part of the point you are currently arguing against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 The QB position is just so tough to diagnose and predict ahead of time regardless of the scouting report on them coming out of college. The Redskins don't have a great track record drafting QB's but it's not like they are the only ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, KDawg said: : You think Haskins is good enough that he needs to be provided another year, this time with weapons, to see what we have. This is the disconnect you and I have on this. We have a different evaluation right now of Haskins and his potential. Which is fair enough - and frankly the history of developing young QBs in the NFL say you have more chance of being right than me. But our evaluation leads us in very different directions in terms of how we view the short term needs at the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, MartinC said: It’s part of the point you are currently arguing against. But it’s not. I’m arguing against the part that I believe it SHOULDN’T be a part of the process. But I am also aware of the way things go in a general sense, and I’m on the opposite side of the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 48 minutes ago, KDawg said: This is a great point. I'm not sure if it should or shouldn't be a reality. But it is. Something else to think about; When you draft in the first round you have a fairly good idea of the player you want and hence you're picking someone for both need and who fits the scheme (along with immediate readiness). In the later rounds, it's more of a crapshoot in terms of getting the guys you target. You have a better chance of getting your guy if there's only, say, 14 or 15 players picked in front of them. Harder to predict if your player will be there if some 200 guys are going. Hence, you don't necessarily plan your game around a WR going in the 6th or 7th as much as you do a QB going in the first (obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clskinsfan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 hours ago, KDawg said: See, I tend to think opposite. I don't believe in the sunken cost model. Your cost was your cost but its in the past. If you do not think there is a future, you don't mortgage everything to stick with a guy who you aren't sure can get it done. You use resources to fix what you need to fix to be competitive. To that end, I'd argue that quarterback is a much bigger need than a potential slot receiver/return man and thus is an area to be looked at much more thoroughly. So you are ready to give up on Haskins already? Not trying to be a jerk but dont you think that it is a little bit early for that? The guy has progressed almost every week as the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, clskinsfan said: So you are ready to give up on Haskins already? Not trying to be a jerk but dont you think that it is a little bit early for that? The guy has progressed almost every week as the starter. I think maybe you should read all of my comments before jumping to any conclusions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clskinsfan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, KDawg said: I think maybe you should read all of my comments before jumping to any conclusions My fault. That is what makes this site so frustrating sometimes. You see one post and dont get the full context of the conversation. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 21 hours ago, MartinC said: The report/speculation on Meyer was he is someone Snyder is consulting on re the coaching hire not someone who is going to be the coach. If this is true, Bruce Allen should have been fired yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said: If this is true, Bruce Allen should have been fired yesterday. Bruce Allen should have been fired about 5 weeks after he was hired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panninho Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 He definitely has come a long way. I'm glad that putting the effort in shows up on tape and that he apparently learned from it. Still ways to go but I find his growth encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, Panninho said: He definitely has come a long way. I'm glad that putting the effort in shows up on tape and that he apparently learned from it. Still ways to go but I find his growth encouraging. From "The Closer" conference to here, I've got to give credit to Haskins for how he's handling the media. I like it when QBs keep it straight and honest. Can't get more honest than his Giants game review lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho fan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 37 minutes ago, Panninho said: I about threw up too.. I was there in person to watch that debacle lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I’ve said it before, but I’m pleasantly surprised with his growth/development in the sense that I thought it would take serious offseason work to really make strides on a lot of his issues. Related to that, I’m not sure bringing in a qb to compete with him (and thereby likely severely reducing his reps) is the right move. Heck, I’m not sold that he’s the kind that would relish a qb competition as some others seem to... although you could argue that’s just what they say to the media... Obviously I want to see a lot more from him, but I think I’m at the point that the org needs to focus on building the team around him and giving him the support he needs (a good coaching staff, etc) so we can see how far he can go next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malapropismic Depository Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Panninho said: So did Donovan McNabb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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