!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[justice98]

23 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Are we saying it works in practice?  A Jets player just got cut for having a shoulder surgery the team didn't authorize.  What good does going do, if the team still dictates treatment through their medical staff by proxy?

 

Stuff like this is going to pop up around the league until they make medical staffs completely independent of ownership.   

 

But how often does that happen though where guys get punished like that?  Players probably get second opinions all around the league and it's never an issue.  99% of the time, it probably works out.  

[Gerald362]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

He got fined for going and seeking a second opinion, and then having the surgery.  The Jets felt it was a pre-existing injury...and because of that, they expected him to have to wait until the offseason to address it.  And practice, and play in the meantime.  

 

The cost of a 2nd opinion is a drop in the bucket to an NFL team.  Why do you think they're so opposed to it?  I mean this is the same league where players used to not have access to their own medical records...

If your insurer says that you have to get clearance from us to get a second opinion, then you get clearance if you expect them to pay. If you decide that you are going to have non emergency surgery and take off work without clearing it with your employer, you may not have a job when you are cleared to return to work.  It all comes down to following the rules that were agreed to on employment. My understanding is if player has questions and follows protocol, team pays for second opinion. If you don't want to follow the rules you agreed to, don't expect employer to have much sympathy

[megared]

1 minute ago, Gerald362 said:

If your insurer says that you have to get clearance from us to get a second opinion, then you get clearance if you expect them to pay. If you decide that you are going to have non emergency surgery and take off work without clearing it with your employer, you may not have a job when you are cleared to return to work.  It all comes down to following the rules that were agreed to on employment. My understanding is if player has questions and follows protocol, team pays for second opinion. If you don't want to follow the rules you agreed to, don't expect employer to have much sympathy

 

All of those rules are for insurance companies to work out. 

 

If I need care, I go get it.  But my employer doesn't restrict my ability to do so.  NFL teams do.  

[justice98]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sheehan asked Finlay if he thinks this would hurt Bruce's status with Dan.  Finlay speculated that if anyone could affect Dan on this it would be Trent.

 

 

I feel like if that was gonna happen, it would've by now.  Trent has always had access to Dan. He used his jet to go get the surgery, so Dan is plenty looped in to Trent.  Dan is still running with his buddy though. 

 

I don't think Snyder heard too much new information yesterday or just realized that Trent doesnt like Bruce just now.

[megared]

3 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

But how often does that happen though where guys get punished like that?  Players probably get second opinions all around the league and it's never an issue.  99% of the time, it probably works out.  

 

Depending on your importance to the team, contract status, etc, etc.  With what we know about how they handled concussions and painkillers, how do teams, or the collective NFL earn the benefit of a doubt?

[Gerald362]

Just now, megared said:

 

All of those rules are for insurance companies to work out. 

 

If I need care, I go get it.  But my employer doesn't restrict my ability to do so.  NFL teams do.  

And so can any player. If their care is played for by employer via insurance, you follow the rules If you expect your employer/insurer to pay for it. If you decide to just go have surgery and miss time or expect employer to be fine with it, you will probably get an unpleasant surprise

[SkinsGuy]

Just now, megared said:

 

C'mon man...Brees isn't representative of the average care or attention an NFL player would get.  He isn't even representative of the average care or attention an NFL superstar would get.  He's a diety to New Orleans.  At this point, you probably had people offering their own thumbs to get him on the field.  

 

I have no idea about the quality of care and its differences between "superstars", as you call them, and the average joe player.

 

What I do know is that the CBA is the CBA, and if Brees can get a second opinion on his injury under the CBA, the average joe player who just snaps the ball for the field goal kicker can too.

 

Besides which, Trent Williams is no average joe player. He is one of the elite left tackles in football, a seven time pro bowler, and making good money.

 

I'm pretty sure he could've got a second opinion had he tried.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I feel like if that was gonna happen, it would've by now.  Trent has always had access to Dan. He used his jet to go get the surgery, so Dan is plenty looped in to Trent.  Dan is still running with his buddy though. 

 

I don't think Snyder heard too much new information yesterday or just realized that Trent doesnt like Bruce just now.

 

Maybe not.  I don't have much faith on Dan on any front really.  The only thing i'll say in his defense is that some (like the WP, Loverro, Finlay) suggest that Bruce is safe regardless of what else is going on because of the stadium.  

[Fresh8686]

YWhatever you think about Trent in this situation, it's clear that Bruce Allen made what was a bad situation much worse. He needlessly antagonized Trent and turned this into a vindictive power struggle.

 

Bruce Allen is the worst kind of negotiator. He doesn't actually have skill to carry out a faithful give and take. The only thing he seems capable of doing is trying to create short-term leverage through adversarial means which leaves a bad taste in every ones mouth.

He's just a dude who tries to make his bones by beating up on the little guys he can leverage and being embarrassed by the bigger players and other teams who aren't pressed to have to desperately deal with him.

[megared]

7 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

I have no idea about the quality of care and its differences between "superstars", as you call them, and the average joe player.

 

What I do know is that the CBA is the CBA, and if Brees can get a second opinion on his injury under the CBA, the average joe player who just snaps the ball for the field goal kicker can too.

 

Besides which, Trent Williams is no average joe player. He is one of the elite left tackles in football, a seven time pro bowler, and making good money.

 

I'm pretty sure he could've got a second opinion had he tried.

 

Brees probably had a wing of the local hospital opened, in dedication of getting his thumb fixed.  He received world class care , with all of the best considerations.  I can't imagine the resources and attention the Saints devoted to ensuring he received the best medical advice they could buy.  But then again the Saints are a much better run organization at this point.

 

It means you have the right to.  It's legally defensible.  If you're an average joe player, you take the injury settlement and shut up, after you're cut for not doing what the team wants.  

 

[CTskin]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

I can see both sides of the story but I'm on team Trent on this one.  The team should stop being petty, guarantee the last 2 years and make amends with a guy who has been loyal to the franchise when most have no reason to be.

 

The team trying to prove they are right with this special investigation is embarrassing, they could have used the special investigation a year or two ago to find out why they have so many injuries and problems with surgeries.

 

 

 

I find it impossible to choose sides. TW chose to announce his holdout at the least opportune time for the team. If he was serious with this being all based on the medical issue and he wanted out, he would have announced it much earlier in an honest attempt to be traded. The timing of this was no coincidence and it screams $$$ to me. ... and then there's the fact that Bruce said tell me who to fire and they're gone and TW didn't name names. If he REALLY did this for his teammates then name names mother****er and protect those guys. I called bull**** early on and now it couldn't be more obvious.

 

Completely agree about the second point. It's scary how out of touch our front office is with this nonsense. Regardless of the outcome, this paints the FO very poorly, somehow even worse than it already was... and they truly don't comprehend this. It's laughable... in the saddest most disappointing way. 

[Burgold]

25 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

Bruce Allen is the worst kind of negotiator. He doesn't actually have skill to carry out a faithful give and take. The only thing he seems capable of doing is trying to create short-term leverage through adversarial means which leaves a bad taste in every ones mouth.
 

I agree with this. Bruce is the kind of negotiator who thinks for him to win the other guy must lose. The best negotiations are the ones where both parties feel they did well or that they feel both parties gave a little bit.

[kingdaddy]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe not.  I don't have much faith on Dan on any front really.  The only thing i'll say in his defense is that some (like the WP, Loverro, Finlay) suggest that Bruce is safe regardless of what else is going on because of the stadium.  

So we're selling years and years of our souls just to get a new stadium for out of town fans to sit in and enjoy.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The best negotiations are the ones where both parties feel they did well or that they feel both parties gave a little bit.

Right, because it breeds goodwill the next time, as well as good word of mouth.  

 

Not only that, but the goal of a GM trying to instill a good culture is to build your guys up.  Even if deep down, you don't think X player is worth this or that, you don't have to use those tactics in negotiation.  All it does is rub folks the wrong way and in this era, guys have options and as we've seen - will do whatever they feel is necessary to exercise them.  Bruce is just outdated in how he handles modern athletes, their agents, the press, and the fans.

[Hooper]

It's tricky. On one side, you have a player who has given his heart and soul to the team, performed at a HOF level.  On the other, you have an incompetent and ruthless front office guy who has helped destroyed a once great franchise. Who should I support?

 

 

[Wildbunny]

46 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I feel like if that was gonna happen, it would've by now.  Trent has always had access to Dan. He used his jet to go get the surgery, so Dan is plenty looped in to Trent.  Dan is still running with his buddy though. 

 

I don't think Snyder heard too much new information yesterday or just realized that Trent doesnt like Bruce just now.

I wouldn't bet on this.

Bruce has to act as a shield for him to Dan. Since everything goes through him, he can say whatever he wants to Dan. So I can see Bruce blocking anything that would make him look bad on the intern to ever reach Dan. What goes through media is just outside noise with no solid fondation within the organisation.

 

When you're acting like Bruce is, then people that have direct access to the guy you report on a daily basis are a problem for you because at the end of the day Dan will have to pick either one.  And Dan is tipically the guy that would settle with players he likes, because he likes to go out and play bowling with them.

 

So Dan probably heard about the situation really late into the story and gave Trent an opportunity to cure himself. Did he hear about the fact that it's been ongoing for 6 year? Probability is high that he first heared about it yesterday. It's even quite possible that since Trent asked for a trade Bruce only sold him that it was a money problem and that's it.

2 minutes ago, Hooper said:

It's tricky. On one side, you have a player who has given his heart and soul to the team, performed at a HOF level.  On the other, you have an incompetent and ruthless front office guy who has helped destroyed a once great franchise. Who should I support?

 

 

The damn good culture?

[Voice_of_Reason]

Multiple thoughts.  Bottom line up front: Everybody screwed up.  However, we are predisposed to like Trent and hate Bruce, so that's going to taint our perception no matter what. 

 

1. The team conducting an independent review of the medical treatment of Trent is absolutely what it has to and should do, regardless of outcome.  This is a no-braiiner, because you can't have one of your star players now publicly blasting the medical group saying CANCER was not diagnosed properly for 6 YEARS.  Then he had to have 1/3 of his scalp removed.  If the Redskins are found negligent, then they need to know and fix it.  If they are not, then they're not.  While this is a PR thing at the moment, it really isn't a PR thing.  They HAVE to do it and make sure everybody knows they are doing it, because what Trent just said can effect what other players in FA think about the medical staff.  I know, you might say "everybody already hates the Redskins what does it matter?" But it DOES matter.  It matters a lot.  Especially if the 'Skins were not at fault.  And NOBODY knows at the moment if they were negligent or not.  This can effect coaching candidates, players, draft picks (Can you imagine if the 'Skins drafted Tua and he said a la Elway and Eli, "I'm just not playing there?").  

 

2. Trent can talk about his own medical situation until the cows come home.  The team cannot say a peep about them or they are in violation of about a million privacy laws.  So he lobbed a grenade at Bruce yesterday that Bruce can't respond to.  Bruce/team cannot come out and contradict ANYTHING Trent says.  It's rather brilliant on the part of Trent, honestly.  He can say anything, and they can't respond.  They can't even leak that kind of information, because you know where it would have to have come from, and passing the information to a reporter is just as illegal.  It's a federal offense to violate medical confidentiality, and you go to jail if you violate those laws.  

 

3. What is massively short-sighted is allowing Trent back in the building and then knowing he could completely trash you and make you look like idiots.  As soon as this turned even a little bit ugly, they needed to move Trent, probably back during TC, just to prevent the press scrum yesterday from ever happening.  I'm willing to bet if Bruce takes a first or second from somebody in August, Trent basically gets up and thanks the Redskins, thanks the new team, and everybody moves on with life.  By allowing this to drag on, and then allowing him back in the building, they allowed a situation to occur which never should have been allowed to occur.

 

4.  I have no idea what the team can do in terms of propping up Trent's trade value at this point.  If they can find a way to make sure he doesn't get credit for this year, that would be good for them.  Then they can try and trade him in the off-season.   Whatever is the right thing to do, however, I'm pretty sure Bruce is going to do the opposite, and be short sighted and stupid.

 

5.  Interesting that Trent kept saying he loved Dan, but hated the organization.  Trent needs to take Dan to lunch at Morton's, or maybe a Dinner, and talk to him individually and tell him what's what.  Trent is a guy who can do that.  And he probably still can do that.

 

6. Trent said something interesting, he said that this year's salary was not guaranteed.  That's new information if true.  What JP has been reporting is that next year's contract wasn't guaranteed.  That's also on Trent and his agent for signing the deal knowing the last 2 years were not guaranteed, or had no guaranteed component, or whatever.  That's something they knew going into this year when they signed the contract.  If they didn't like that, they should have proposed a different structure.  I don't know, but I would imagine if Trent went to Bruce in the off-season and said, "hey, can you guarantee 2019?" Bruce might have just said yes.  Because they were going to pay him anyway because there was no plan not to have him on the team.  Win-win.  Hell, he might have been able to have that conversation in December, and everybody might have been fine with it.  Putting the whole medical thing on top of the contract thing just made things massively messy.

28 minutes ago, CTskin said:

 

I find it impossible to choose sides. TW chose to announce his holdout at the least opportune time for the team. If he was serious with this being all based on the medical issue and he wanted out, he would have announced it much earlier in an honest attempt to be traded. The timing of this was no coincidence and it screams $$$ to me. ... and then there's the fact that Bruce said tell me who to fire and they're gone and TW didn't name names. If he REALLY did this for his teammates then name names mother****er and protect those guys. I called bull**** early on and now it couldn't be more obvious.

 

Completely agree about the second point. It's scary how out of touch our front office is with this nonsense. Regardless of the outcome, this paints the FO very poorly, somehow even worse than it already was... and they truly don't comprehend this. It's laughable... in the saddest most disappointing way. 

I'm not entirely sure that's true.  He said his last surgery (of 3) was in June.  He might not have really known the extent of the medical stuff in Jan/Feb.  

 

Also, the 'Skins had ample opportunities to do something with Trent from April until October 29th which would have been beneficial, and they signed Penn, who has played pretty well at LT.  They could have done that earlier, and they had plenty of time to get assets for Trent.

[Voice_of_Reason]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe not.  I don't have much faith on Dan on any front really.  The only thing i'll say in his defense is that some (like the WP, Loverro, Finlay) suggest that Bruce is safe regardless of what else is going on because of the stadium.  

Dan can be very unpredictable.  He's also very insulated.  You never know, he might have an eye-opening moment somewhere along the way and change his mind.

 

The massive issue is Dan ONLY talks to Bruce.  Since he only talks to Bruce, he only gets one source of information. 

 

Dan needs another friend.  What Dan really needs is to be good friends and have trust with another owner or two who know how to run a team.  Then even if they don't openly advise him, he can try and mimic what they do.  And if he had questions about Bruce, he had somewhere to turn.  

[justice98]

9 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I wouldn't bet on this.

Bruce has to act as a shield for him to Dan. Since everything goes through him, he can say whatever he wants to Dan. So I can see Bruce blocking anything that would make him look bad on the intern to ever reach Dan. What goes through media is just outside noise with no solid fondation within the organisation.

 

 

I've never believed that was actually true.  Snyder knows and has always known what's going on, what's being said, etc, IMO.  A zebra doesnt change its stripes. 

 

He doesn't show up at a half empty FedEx and look at Bruce going "you told me everything was fine!"

[Warhead36]

The team gets NO benefit of the doubt. None. The history of the Snyder era is littered with guys who have had issues with the medical or training regiment, whether its the RG3 debacle or even something as simple as Carlos Rogers not getting lasik until after he left.

 

If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat...

[megared]

Trent should've done this week or two ago.

 

 

Guarantee all of this would've been over, and he probably would've gotten traded.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Fresh8686 said:

Whatever you think about Trent in this situation, it's clear that Bruce Allen made what was a bid situation much worse. He needlessly antagonized Trent and turned this into a vindictive power struggle.

 

Bruce Allen is the worst kind of negotiator. He doesn't actually have skill to carry out a faithful give and take. The only thing he seems capable of doing is trying to create short-term leverage through adversarial means which leaves a bad taste in every ones mouth.

He's just a dude who tries to make his bones by beating up on the little guys he can leverage and being embarrassed by the bigger players and other teams who aren't pressed to have to desperately deal with him.

 

It makes me think of this, Standig interviewing personnel guys/agents about the FO.

 

 

[SkinFanInMinn]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ironically Sheehan as I type this said on air he thinks there would be Redskin fans who would take even Vinny back to get rid of Bruce.  At the very least, Bruce has surpassed Vinny as a national punch line.  A caller just said what i've said recently -- the thing with Vinny is he was a buffoon but he wasn't unlikeable but Bruce is seen as malicious and paints the organization in a worse way on that front. 

Didn't we have a Bruce v. Vinny thread at one point?  Might be interesting to readress this.  With Vinny we were just a joke on the field.  With Bruce, we're a joke on and off the field.  (I'm not arguing for Vinny to come back in case anyone tries to claim I'm saying that.)

[Wildbunny]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Dan needs another friend.  What Dan really needs is to be good friends and have trust with another owner or two who know how to run a team.  Then even if they don't openly advise him, he can try and mimic what they do.  And if he had questions about Bruce, he had somewhere to turn.  

According to many, Dan is trying to mimic Jerry Jones....

 

Wish he decided to go the Robert Kraft way...

[NewCliche21]

26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

2. Trent can talk about his own medical situation until the cows come home.  The team cannot say a peep about them or they are in violation of about a million privacy laws.  So he lobbed a grenade at Bruce yesterday that Bruce can't respond to.  Bruce/team cannot come out and contradict ANYTHING Trent says.  It's rather brilliant on the part of Trent, honestly.  He can say anything, and they can't respond.  They can't even leak that kind of information, because you know where it would have to have come from, and passing the information to a reporter is just as illegal.  It's a federal offense to violate medical confidentiality, and you go to jail if you violate those laws.  

 

I respect, not necessarily agree with, all of your points.  This one, though, has some caveats.  If it's slander, then it's slander, and HIPAA/contracts can have exceptions for this.  I'm technically a medical professional, and if someone goes out and says that I performed malpractice, then I *can* defend myself.

Not sure of this situation, but it's not black and white.