!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[tmandoug1]

Question: head growth for last 6 years? I agree people tend to blow off second opinions but not on a growth on the skull that has been there 6 years. Skin stuff tends to get you sent to a dermatologist annually to keep an eye on things like that. Be interesting to hear the timeline on how all of this progressed. Just cant see a business setting themselves up for negligence like that. 

[megared]

4 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

This is a misrepresentation of the rules. Players only have to ensure the 2nd opinion is from a licensed doctor. It must be  licensed practicing physician that is an expert in the medical area the 2nd opinion is being sought. 

 

The rest of that is that the team cannot stop players from getting a 2nd opinion, only reject the doctor and force them to get another one but only if the doctor is not properly licensed. Further, the team must pay for the 2nd opinion. They can even get a 3rd opinion but that is on the players dime. 

 

So again, yes if the player gets a 2nd opinion without telling the team at all there are potential consequences. But the player does not need permission at all. In fact the team must accommodate the player including paying for the 2nd opinion and that means all costs including transportation.  

 

I just quoted a former player (from this organization) that said it was taboo to seek second opinions.  Whether they have the ability, really depends on the guaranteed money on their contract, as well as standing with the team.  But sure, they have the right.  And once you start exercising the rights afforded you under the CBA, you enter the procedural chess match we've entered with Trent.  So unless you have a lot of money saved, and don't mind significantly narrowing your market, it's thin ice.  

 

It's not a money thing, or "will my insurance cover it?" kind of situation.  They guys you see getting world class care, for the most part are valued players by the franchise.  Everyone else is expected to be available and save the procedures for the off season.  

 

And look, it is a black eye to the organization, and I'm more than willing to pile it on.  But they aren't the only place where this is a problem.  

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

After firing Grundfeld, Ted said Ernie was the only person he ever talked to about baseball matters.  Now he talks to more people.

 

Ted's smarter than Dan, most likely.  And operates a damn fine hockey team. Which has been competitve for 15 years and won a Stanley Cup.  And STILL only got Ernie's counsel on his floundering basketball team. Which is kindof dense.  Especially since basketball people had tattooed "fool" on Ernie's head for years.  

 

Sure, Dan sees what's going on.  But I doubt he reads any articles or listens to any coverage of his team, and the person he talks to for counsel is Bruce. 

 

Who says:

 

1. Injuries.

2. The coach is an idiot. (Left unsaid, "I didn't consider any other coaches, I hired him as soon as he was available.")

3. We were 6-3 with Alex Smith, who I traded for.  

4. Did I mention the injuries? (PS: This is one of the reasons I was so pissed at Jay for constantly using it as an excuse.  it wasn't just an excuse for his own personal mediocrity, but for Bruce as well.)

5. When we fix the coach, get Alex back, and stay healthy, we'll win, and they'll all come back. Stay the course.  We're close.  Don't worry.  It's not as bad as it seems. 

 

If you listen to only one source, and that's what the source is telling you, and there is just enough of a shred of evidence of truth in it, you will believe it. If you believe the source.

 

The key is trying to get Dan to not believe the source.  When that happens, then things can change.  Until that happens. things won't change. 

 

It's that simple.  

 

I think the reason he doesnt do interviews is because he knows what's being said and written.  He knows he's blamed for everything, he's not stupid.

 

The implication is that bad decisions are made because Bruce gives Dan bad information.  As if Bruce is somehow an impediment to Snyder making good decisions on his own.  

13 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Question: head growth for last 6 years? I agree people tend to blow off second opinions but not on a growth on the skull that has been there 6 years. Skin stuff tends to get you sent to a dermatologist annually to keep an eye on things like that. Be interesting to hear the timeline on how all of this progressed. Just cant see a business setting themselves up for negligence like that. 

 

It doesn't make logical sense to me.  Trent's version has some holes in it, frankly.

[justice98]

1 hour ago, sempre_victrix said:

If this was solely about the medical staff, didn’t Bruce offer to fire them and TW said no?

 

 

I think that was according to DHall, who has a sketchy track record on his information.

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, megared said:

 

I just quoted a former player (from this organization) that said it was taboo to seek second opinions.  Whether they have the ability, really depends on the guaranteed money on their contract, as well as standing with the team.  But sure, they have the right.  And once you start exercising the rights afforded you under the CBA, you enter the procedural chess match we've entered with Trent.  So unless you have a lot of money saved, and don't mind significantly narrowing your market, it's thin ice.  

 

It's not a money thing, or "will my insurance cover it?" kind of situation.  They guys you see getting world class care, for the most part are valued players by the franchise.  Everyone else is expected to be available and save the procedures for the off season.  

 

And look, it is a black eye to the organization, and I'm more than willing to pile it on.  But they aren't the only place where this is a problem.  

 

Yes, I addressed Smoot the mouth (maybe you did not read that far. It's at the end.) And you are wrong about paying - completely wrong - the team  has to pay for the second opinion  no matter who the player is. It is by the CBA. Not sure how much clearer I can make it. if players are too timid to enforce the CBA then that is 100% on them - especially a 9 yr veteran. The medical care is the same for all players. It has to be - period. You guys are making up your own narrative here with mostly speculation - why I do not know, piling on I guess?

 

Also, this is part of the agents job - to advise his client on what's best. If they are not doing that then that's on the agent who was hired by the player so again it's all - and I mean ALL on the player. 

 

I hate this ****ing FO and Bruce is a total POS and has screwed this thing up every which way, but you cannot blame Bruce or the team for Trent not getting a 2nd opinion - or the timing of that 2nd opinion. It is 100% on him,  It's his right per the CBA and even has to be paid for by the team - it's in the rules. And he is an adult, not a child who doesn't now better. Not to mention again he has people that are paid to have his best interest in hand. If they do not, then that's 100% on him. 

[SkinFanInMinn]

1 hour ago, carex said:

 

that depends on what you mean by joke off the field.  Our coach hiring practices weren't great during that era and we signed expensive guys who never amounted to anything, and we traded picks for people who never did anything

Yeah, I guess I was still considering that stuff part of 'on the field' as in 'football related'.  Off the field is more of public perception, medical squabbles with your best player, fall festival, goofy press conferences, etc.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

So yesterday I was thinking an extension for Trent was around the corner.

 

Now, who knows. I mean he's made some accusations that now need to be backed up. He's going to look bad if they are picked apart.

 

Can he be sanctioned/suspended for this kind of thing, I don't know, like conduct detrimental to the team. Maybe that happens and he sits out the remainder of the season.

 

Ditto the team if the third party investigation finds something untoward.  This is another reason why they should have traded Trent.  One thing some beat guys continued to say during the process that mega drama would ensue if Trent returns.  So now we are here.

 

Over the years, I've heard enough nice things about who Trent is as a person and leader that I doubt that there is anything disingenuous about how he sees this.  He maybe right and maybe wrong but I am guessing his motives here are pure.

 

I think no way someone like Gibbs (who talked about trading anyone who didn't want to be there) and Belichick would let this drama just play out. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/11/01/trent-williamss-silent-struggle-with-redskins-is-now-an-all-out-war/

 

For most of the last decade, power has lived in the far left corner of the Redskins locker room. This is where Trent Williams, the team’s star left tackle, has dressed, sprawling in a chair, his back resting against the edges of his locker stall, his expression serene, eyes seeing everything.

 

“Approaching him was like having an audience with a king,” one teammate said.

And yet Williams was not as intimidating as he appeared. The chairs on either side of him were open to anyone who wanted to sit down and talk about anything that would keep his interest. Players have long described him as one of the kindest men they knew in football, someone who would pick up tabs and offer advice.

 

Because of this, Williams became the team’s most-revered player, respected as much for his benevolence as for the seven straight Pro Bowls to which he was named and the career that has been on a trajectory for the Hall of Fame. All of which makes the current situation between the 31-year-old lineman and the Redskins extremely complicated.

 

...Even now that Williams has revealed his frustrations with the Redskins, indicating with nonanswers that he will do everything he can to not play for the team this year, his friends speak carefully, describing a smart, stubborn man who believes the franchise’s carelessness nearly cost him his life.

 

“If you don’t take a stand, you stand for nothing,” one friend said on the condition he not be named because he was not authorized to talk for Williams.

 

“He’s very principled,” the friend added. “He had a life-threatening situation. And he said, ‘No, I’m not going back to that team, I’m not doing that.’”

 

“One thing about Trent is he’s never going to change,” fellow tackle Morgan Moses said the day after Williams reported to the team. “He’s always going to be the same person, that’s who he is, man. He’s never going to change. He’s always been the same person since day one, since I’ve known him.”

 

The one friend who called Williams “principled” said Williams will not back down, that he will refuse to play until the team trades him — something Williams first asked the Redskins to do on June 1. The friend cautioned against buying into a narrative that the Redskins and Allen had won the standoff with Williams by refusing to trade him, waiting until the trade deadline when Williams was forced to return. He cautioned the team against fighting Williams on medical technicalities.

 

“They’re just trying to cover their a--,” the friend said of the Redskins’ request for a review of his medical
records by the league and players union. “It’s still going to say he had cancer and they didn’t diagnose it.”

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

Yeah, I guess I was still considering that stuff part of 'on the field' as in 'football related'.  Off the field is more of public perception, medical squabbles with your best player, fall festival, goofy press conferences, etc.

 

There was all kinds of similar drama under Vinnie. That was the mai topic of conversation with Redskins fans - the drama surrounding the team. All the leaks and the stupid behind the scenes statements. 

 

The only difference I see is that Vinnie's drama was more because he was a bungler. Bruce is pompous and conniving prick. 

[megared]

10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Yes, I addressed Smoot the mouth (maybe you did not read that far. It's at the end.) And you are wrong about paying - completely wrong - the team  has to pay for the second opinion  no matter who the player is. It is by the CBA. Not sure how much clearer I can make it. if players are too timid to enforce the CBA then that is 100% on them - especially a 9 yr veteran. The medical care is the same for all players. It has to be - period. You guys are making up your own narrative here with mostly speculation - why I do not know, piling on I guess?

 

You're not understanding the point that it's still very much dependent upon the team as to how accommodating they will be.  Would it be good for an expendable player to go to his rep, in order to seek a second opinion?  Do you eat the unexcused absence fine, or the fact that your 2nd opinion won't have the records the teams have, to make an assessment?  While all of the procedural stuff plays out, your body is still broken...and now the team will want nothing to do with you.  

 

His issue, beyond the medical team not catching it, was probably the fact that they minimized it, and had him play through it.  What reason would he have to not believe them?  He trusted the team with all things related to his health and never had a reason to doubt it.

 

Sure, Trent holds some responsibility for not knowing...but I don't blame him for not wanting to be around people that didn't catch it. 

 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

You're not understanding the point that it's still very much dependent upon the team as to how accommodating they will be.  Would it be good for an expendable player to go to his rep, in order to seek a second opinion?  Do you eat the unexcused absence fine, or the fact that your 2nd opinion won't have the records the teams have, to make an assessment?  While all of the procedural stuff plays out, your body is still broken...and now the team will want nothing to do with you.  

 

His issue, beyond the medical team not catching it, was probably the fact that they minimized it, and had him play through it.  What reason would he have to not believe them?  He trusted the team with all things related to his health and never had a reason to doubt it.

 

Sure, Trent holds some responsibility for not knowing...but I don't blame him for not wanting to be around people that didn't catch it. 

 

 

I don't blame him for being pissed - and it really does not matter why. It's his body. But you are not understanding how this works - or rather are ignoring the facts as they don't fit the narrative. You are adding your own speculation the medical issues. The team cannot and would not even benefit from slow walking medical information. It makes zero sense.  

 

Again, NO it does not depend on the team on how accommodating they are. They do not have a choice. Nor would it make sense for them to expose themselves to that kind of litigation. They will lose and lose badly. It's probably the one place the players have the most leverage outside of playing. Any team acting like you have described would be sued immediately and would lose, badly. And how can there be an unexcused absence if the team has to make sure the player sees a second doctor? 

 

Again, the team is contractually obligated to support a player getting a second opinion whenever they want to. It's just not an option. And if the player is not enforcing this, it's 100% on them - period. 

 

I am done here.  It appears you have decided to believe what you want instead of understanding how it actually works. 

[megared]

29 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Again, NO it does not depend on the team on how accommodating they are. They do not have a choice. Nor would it make sense for them to expose themselves to that kind of litigation. They will lose and lose badly. It's probably the one place the players have the most leverage outside of playing. Any team acting like you have described would be sued immediately and would lose, badly. And how can there be an unexcused absence if the team has to make sure the player sees a second doctor? 

 

Yea...teams would never do that:

 

Jets cut Kelechi Osemele amid injury dispute, surgery

 

Report: Bengals fined Cordy Glenn during dispute over concussion

 

🙄

 

By the time these cases are decided, most of the guys are out of the NFL (see Su'a Cravens).  It's to their benefit to delay and deny, because the average NFL player's window of making money is very narrow.  

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Yea...teams would never do that:

 

Jets cut Kelechi Osemele amid injury dispute, surgery

 

Report: Bengals fined Cordy Glenn during dispute over concussion

 

🙄

 

By the time these cases are decided, most of the guys are out of the NFL (see Su'a Cravens).  It's to their benefit to delay and deny, because they average NFL player's window of making money is very narrow.  

 

We do not know the entire details here (nor am I wasting my time to find out) and you find 2 anecdotal examples - again that could have other factors where the players have been dishonest or other factors among the 1000s of other cases. 

 

Really is my last. Feel free to believe what you ant. But Trent Williams owns 100% of Trent Williams body. So if he wanted a 2nd opinion and did not get one, it is 100% on Trent Williams And I could care less what has happened to anyone else. It's his body - just like it's their body. 

 

Does not mean the team is not ****ed up - but can't just pile on because it feels good. 

[Coach Janky Spanky]

1 hour ago, tmandoug1 said:

Question: head growth for last 6 years? I agree people tend to blow off second opinions but not on a growth on the skull that has been there 6 years. Skin stuff tends to get you sent to a dermatologist annually to keep an eye on things like that. Be interesting to hear the timeline on how all of this progressed. Just cant see a business setting themselves up for negligence like that. 

 

Really?   I can't think of one single area, whether football-related or business-related, in which the Redskins haven't demonstrated gross negligence at some point in the past few years.   Why would this be any different?  (also, I don't mean to make light of a very-serious health situation)

 

 

[megared]

8 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

We do not know the entire details here (nor am I wasting my time to find out) and you find 2 anecdotal examples - again that could have other factors where the players have been dishonest or other factors among the 1000s of other cases. 

 

Really is my last. Feel free to believe what you ant. But Trent Williams owns 100% of Trent Williams body. So if he wanted a 2nd opinion and did not get one, it is 100% on Trent Williams And I could care less what has happened to anyone else. It's his body - just like it's their body. 

 

Does not mean the team is not ****ed up - but can't just pile on because it feels good. 

 

 

 

But yea, the system works.  Anecdotal enough that the NFLPA is fighting it? 

 

"But a team would never deny a second opinion...it's in the CBA!"  🤣

 

[Unbias]

21 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html 

 

Medical mistakes are the 3rd leading cause of death in America. 250k people a year die from it. Physicians are very prone to mistakes. It’s inherent in the system and the profession.  That’s reality. That’s why we need lawyers to hold them accountable. Those are the real heroes.  
 

Trent needs to adjust his expectations of what medical care actually provides. 

 

The medical professionals also have insurance to cover many of the errors that result from a misdiagnosis. It's not for the patient to take an 'oh well' approach to a doctor making a mistake. 

 

This situation is also unique. For us if we had a misdiagnosis from a doctor we'd go to another. Trent, outside of asking that doctor to be fired, can't really do that, so his options are only the team physicians. 

[CapsSkins]

How ironic that the 7-time consecutive Pro Bowler having a super rare form of cancer causing him to have 1/3 of his "scalp removed" is on the ****ing "Redskins". Good lord the gods have a wicked sense of humor.

 

As for the situation, it doesn't seem like anyone's fault per se. Apparently the cancer is very difficult to detect and diagnose. Our docs are experts in bone and ligament issues, not dermatology. I understand Trent feeling rattled but it appears like the medical thing lit a fire under his ass about his contract, the org didn't bend, and he got pissed. I will add that if Bruce were better with diplomacy and empathy, we probably wouldn't get to this point. But i don't think this situation is nearly as one-sided as some here do.

[Gerald362]

11 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

 

But yea, the system works.  Anecdotal enough that the NFLPA is fighting it? 

 

"But a team would never deny a second opinion...it's in the CBA!"  🤣

 

And this shows that the system works. If the employee is right, and stayed out of work legitimately, the employee has an obligation. If he should have been back, then he is penalized. Now without the CBA and NFLPA having his back, I would agree with you, but safeguards are in place for the players.

[megared]

Just now, Gerald362 said:

And this shows that the system works. If the employee is right, and stayed out of work legitimately, the employee has an obligation. If he should have been back, then he is penalized. Now without the CBA and NFLPA having his back, I would agree with you, but safeguards are in place for the players.

 

Yea, and what does the player win, a few dollars after the fact?  In the meantime, he was getting fined to oblivion, and was expected to not have the surgery until a determination was made. 

 

And considering Craven's case is STILL open against the Redskins, how long do you think he has, to sit around and wait on a resolution?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

I will add that if Bruce were better with diplomacy and empathy, we probably wouldn't get to this point. But i don't think this situation is nearly as one-sided as some here do.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt, this is what led the situation to where it stands today.  

 

I don't even believe the team doctors are responsible for detecting cancer, so I won't be shocked if it plays out that the docs did no wrong.  That said, I can also understand why Trent would take their word for it if they said it was nothing to worry about.  Everybody who keeps saying it's Trent's responsibility to get a 2nd opinion, you're not wrong.  It's just not uncommon for men particularly, to not stress health issues until they are a real problem or in Trent's case - trust the team doctors on stuff like this, naive or not.  

 

How all that got to where we are is all but certainly due to our team president poorly managing the situation from a personal standpoint.  Shocker.

[goskins10]

57 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

 

But yea, the system works.  Anecdotal enough that the NFLPA is fighting it? 

 

"But a team would never deny a second opinion...it's in the CBA!"  🤣

 

 

NFLPA will lose. And it's still just a law suit, one of many. Its not a fact until there is judgement. 

 

Just give it up man. I get you have a narrative here you want to believe and that's fine. But it's just inaccurate. I will say it one last time - Trent owns whatever happened to his body. It's his body. Either he choose poorly or he had poor advisers outside the team. Nothing changes that - period. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This is another reason why they should have traded Trent.

 

Not sure about that with hindsight.

 

I said yesterday, imagine Trent sat in the Browns locker room spewing all that out about the Redskins. Don't get me wrong, he may well be completely vindicated in what he said. But we don't know do we, yet?

 

I have loved Trent as a Redskins. Always. I can also understand from the outside watching this unfold thinking he must be in the right, Bruce and the rest of this organisation, inept, at best.

 

But...what has been said will extend much further now. Those are serious accusation labelled against the Redskins. They need to be proven to have substance.

 

You can't say an employee has let you rot with cancer for 6 years, with no due care and attention both before, during, and after, without a crystal clear case to support you.

 

I really have no interest in taking sides. This is a fairly poor state of events all told.

 

Whether I have loved Trent and dispised  Bruce isn't actually relevant here, I think we deserve to know the factual chain of events.

 

Gut feeling, it won't reflect well on both sides and Bruce gets out of the net.

 

 

 

[megared]

 

8 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

NFLPA will lose. And it's still just a law suit, one of many. Its not a fact until there is judgement. 

 

Just give it up man. I get you have a narrative here you want to believe and that's fine. But it's just accurate. I will say it one last time - Trent owns whatever happened to his body. It's his body. Either he choose poorly or he had poor advisers outside the team. Nothing changes that - period. 

I agree, it is accurate. 

 

All of the people whining about a second opinion don't realize that it didn't matter if doing so is a highly scrutinized move that could affect your standing with the team.  And it still very much is.  The team is still the final authority on their bodies.    If they want them to play through injuries, the amount of say they have, depends where on the depth chart they fall.

 

What reason would Trent have had at that time, to make a fuss about a second opinion when he never had a reason to distrust them before?  Y'all are applying your middle aged wisdom where it isn't applicable.

 

 

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Potential LTs in the draft

 

You can't possibly be implying that Trent's value could be even lower next offseason. I mean Bruce was so sure...  More proof that Bruce is in way over hi head. 

[justice98]

Did anybody see the clip of Casserly saying that 3 years ago, the doctors told Trent to make an appointment with a specialist about the growth to see what it was and he never did?

 

At 8:15:

 

 

I suspect, if true, this would be in the record of treatment that they advised him to do this.