Election 2017 Thread

[The Sisko]

1 hour ago, mcsluggo said:

 

I'd be very hesitant to make ANY generalizations from the Roy Moore (non) election to ANY thing else.   

 

 

that is basically equivalent to saying:       ".... if the plunging secondary market valuations of Pet Rocks tell us anything, it is that  <and it doesn't matter what you put here> " 

 

 

I actually don't believe what i just said.   I honestly believe that the fact that Roy Moore almost won is what is telling here.  (and it is a little similar to what you are saying,  but a long time-horizon view)   The sort of amoralistic/back-bending/pandering self-desecration that the evangelical leadership had to do in this election to deliver evangelical votes to their masters is what it is telling ... in the long run.     This ****hole of a candidate (and his ****hole president, and a whole stock similar CLEARLY amoral buttplugs) gradually have LONG term impact on religion in this country.     these four years-ish aren't going to kill the republican party, but they are going to mark an inflection point on general perception of religion in this country, when looked back at over a long time horizon...    

 

...Yes, countries that actively have tried to stomp out religion have sometimes succeeded (Russia/estonia/Cuba/China)   But other countries like England and Scandinavian countries that to this day still have "official state religions" have managed to accomplish the same thing, and have populations that are disgusted with religion overall (see wiki below).  Same in countries like Japan that had a political figure as THE FACE of religion.  Entwining religion into government gives a temporary boost in influence to TODAYS religious leaders, or to TODAY'S political imperative.....but it does so at the expense of religion over time.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country  

 

Assholes like Falwell/Bakker/Swaggart/Roberts are able to harm religiosity in this country a helluva lot more than self proclaimed atheists will EVER be able to accomplish.   Roy Moore and Donald Trump are like giant clown faced sirens ... and the religious leaders that are drawn to support THEM are pretty clearly revealed to anyone that is looking.       

I’ve made this point before here. It’s nice to see it actually happening. The undermining of religion is one of the few silver linings to come out of the Dump phenomenon and the pre-existing unholy alliance between the Grand Oligarch’s Party and the ‘Muricun Fundies. The bonus is that it’s looking like both might be gutted at once. Way to go guys. Bravo.????

[TheGreatBuzz]

What are the chances that the lesson the GOP learns from Moore losing is that he didnt touch ENOUGH children?

 

Im guessing 100%.

[Burgold]

13 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

What are the chances that the lesson the GOP learns from Moore losing is that he didnt touch ENOUGH children?

 

Im guessing 100%.

One could certainly make the argument that the GOP tax bill as written is designed to abuse as many children as possible.

[Predicto]

[Sticksboi05]

On 12/13/2017 at 10:17 AM, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

White women aren't a monolith.  The most clear fault lines in the demo are level of education and whether they are married or unmarried.  Educated and unmarried White women are Democrats.  Married White women without a college education vote Republican.  And the reason is because those women take on the political views of their husbands. 

 

First off, education empowers you to think critically and formulate principles which aren't reinforced solely by dogma and social taboo.  But education is also a passport into the public sphere.  White women with college degrees are often in professions like teaching and nursing.  They experience the utter bull**** of Republican anti-government free market worshiping philosophy everyday in their work.  They see the ruinous effect of neglecting funding for education and healthcare.  Married white women who don't work or don't work in Blue fields like teaching/nursing are, frankly, more sheltered from the world outside their homes and families.  To them family and loyalty are what matter.  So they take on the views of their Republican husbands.  The security of their home is often dependent on this.  And voting Republican is ultimately made easy for them because they live in conservative bubbles where they do not hear liberal voices. 

 

Actually, come to think of it, I think this is true of married white women who vote Democrat too.  My wife has a college degree and she has grown to become far more liberal since she's been with me.  I think White women are socialized to seek consensus and family harmony in a way that might be unique within the electorate.

 

A member of my family is the quintessential example of the married White woman Republican voter with no college degree.  The night before the 2016 election, she called my wife and asked her what she should do.  Her husband was pretty vocal in support for Trump, their entire family is pretty conservative, and they live in a VERY conservative part of the country.  Yet she must have had some issues with Trump to reach out to my wife like that.  Anyway, my wife went over some of the bad **** about Trump and why he'd be a disaster.  She literally did not know about or understand his issues, I'm dead serious when I say they never hear liberal voices.  But I'm pretty sure her husband got into her ear next, and when the moment of truth came she still voted for Trump.  ****ing pissed me off so much.  Still makes me angry when I think about it a year later but I'm not mad at her anymore.  I realize now it's an issue of security for her and her family.

 

White husbands are VERY controlling and lead households on political issues.  I'm not really sure what you can do about this except to keep educating and empowering White women and bring educated White men into the Democratic fold.  Uneducated White men are ****ing lost.* 

 

*EDIT: unless they're union workers.

 

I wasn't saying they were one large entity, when I said I wasn't surprised I meant because men are still very controlling in those cultures. Ironic since certain people in those cultures get mad at other cultures for how they dehumanize women.

 

 Just saying...

[visionary]

 

[LD0506]

So much wow...............

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/16/hard-times-in-trump-country/

 

I'd LOVE to hear someone tell me exactly what policy discussion or program implementation (other than free beer and dope) you're going to suggest that will reach this demographic. You have vast swaths of the country that have been ill-used and overlooked, I give you that, but when their reaction is to crawl back into the caves and roll a rock into the entrance, I'm at a loss for any idea on what to do.

 

There are a lot of rationalizations and justifications made by pundits across the spectrum, but IMO that's all that they are, rationalizations that ignore the reality here. This isn't about Appalachia, it isn't about the "heartland" or "flyover country" or any other glib characterization, this is about conscious, willful ignorance and those that pander to it for their own ends, whether economic or political. These communities and views exist everywhere, in every state, and overwhelmingly they result from people that have chosen to separate themselves from others, to insulate themselves in tight little knots of "their own kind" and blame those "others" (there are always others to blame aren't there?), and personally I am exhausted at even the thought of trying to drag them kicking and screaming back out of their caves.

 

WTF do you even say when farmers vote to expel Mexicans and then cry that there are no farmhands? Towns that bristle at the thought of Mooslems when the only one they know is the doctor keeping them alive? Etc, etc and so on, we've seen a torrent of articles this year seeking understanding where there is none to be found. No investigation or midterms or anything process-related even begins to formulate an answer to the problem.

[Zguy28]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:40 PM, mcsluggo said:

There is no question that Trump is an Atheist posing as a Christian... but.... How about Jerry Falwell Jr.?   

 

I think he HAS to be, as well....  You cannot actually believe, and behave the way he does.  

An evangelical pastor friend of mine said this to me (I paraphrase) recently: "25 years ago a friend of mine told me to watch out for the 'Moral Majority' and that they were neither 'moral' nor 'majority'. I didn't believe him then and got upset. Now I see how prophetic and right he was."

 

I had the same revelation several years ago.

[twa]

any of them that get involved in politics are suspect to me.

[LadySkinsFan]

Anyone who thinks that they are holier than thou, isn't.

[No Excuses]

3 hours ago, LD0506 said:

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/16/hard-times-in-trump-country/

 

I'd LOVE to hear someone tell me exactly what policy discussion or program implementation (other than free beer and dope) you're going to suggest that will reach this demographic. You have vast swaths of the country that have been ill-used and overlooked, I give you that, but when their reaction is to crawl back into the caves and roll a rock into the entrance, I'm at a loss for any idea on what to do.

 

There are dirt poor immigrants busting their asses and making a living in places where jobs exist in America. Most of the time, they don't even speak English properly.

 

We really ought to be asking what is preventing the low skill working poor in rural and rust belt America from migrating into areas that have job availability.

[LadySkinsFan]

1. They don't have the money to move. 

2. They don't want to live there.

3. They don't want to do that work.

[thebluefood]

1 hour ago, Zguy28 said:

An evangelical pastor friend of mine said this to me (I paraphrase) recently: "25 years ago a friend of mine told me to watch out for the 'Moral Majority' and that they were neither 'moral' nor 'majority'. I didn't believe him then and got upset. Now I see how prophetic and right he was."

 

I had the same revelation several years ago.

Frankly, I've been upset that more liberal leaning churches (including my own) aren't hitting these charlatans harder and more publicly. I know there is a heavy emphasis on reconciliation right now as mainline denominations are splitting apart over things like women in the clergy, LGBTQIA+ rights, and recognition of the Palestinian State but it isn't helping those churches attract more parishioners and more importantly it gives off the impression that we're not serious about our commitment to serving segments of the community that have often been neglected (if not outright persecuted).

 

Whether or not you agree with these institutions on moral or theological grounds, you gotta commit and dig in if this is what you believe lest you end up like the Church of Laodicea 

 

Quote

because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

 

Now this isn't to say we should shoot from the hip and make grand, sweeping statements without careful consideration (including self-reflection of past and present sins) but if someone within our ranks is going out of their way to support and sustain unjust actions or institutions, it's ought to signal 'bombs away.' 

 

[Zguy28]

4 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

Frankly, I've been upset that more liberal leaning churches (including my own) aren't hitting these charlatans harder and more publicly. I know there is a heavy emphasis on reconciliation right now as mainline denominations are splitting apart over things like women in the clergy, LGBTQIA+ rights, and recognition of the Palestinian State but it isn't helping those churches attract more parishioners and more importantly it gives off the impression that we're not serious about our commitment to serving segments of the community that have often been neglected (if not outright persecuted).

 

Whether or not you agree with these institutions on moral or theological grounds, you gotta commit and dig in if this is what you believe lest you end up like the Church of Laodicea 

 

 

Now this isn't to say we should shoot from the hip and make grand, sweeping statements without careful consideration (including self-reflection of past and present sins) but if someone within our ranks is going out of their way to support and sustain unjust actions or institutions, it's ought to signal 'bombs away.' 

 

Trust me, as a conservative evangelical elder, who does not support the GOP anymore or Trump or the Moral Majority folks, I am pretty vocal in my local sphere as are some of my pastoral colleagues in MD/Delaware. It is head bangingly frustrating and constantly brings me into conflict with congregation members.

[bearrock]

21 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Trust me, as a conservative evangelical elder, who does not support the GOP anymore or Trump or the Moral Majority folks, I am pretty vocal in my local sphere as are some of my pastoral colleagues in MD/Delaware. It is head bangingly frustrating and constantly brings me into conflict with congregation members.

 

In my personal experience, your type, the type who will speak truth to power and establishment in the Church, are in the distinct minority .

 

I think the two party system plays a part too.  Someone might say well my opinion of the GOP is a 2 out of 10, but my opinion of the Dems is a 1.  We need a multi-party system to keep all the parties in check and prevent them from saying "At least we better than them".  

[thebluefood]

42 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Trust me, as a conservative evangelical elder, who does not support the GOP anymore or Trump or the Moral Majority folks, I am pretty vocal in my local sphere as are some of my pastoral colleagues in MD/Delaware. It is head bangingly frustrating and constantly brings me into conflict with congregation members.

 

16 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

In my personal experience, your type, the type who will speak truth to power and establishment in the Church, are in the distinct minority .

 

I think the two party system plays a part too.  Someone might say well my opinion of the GOP is a 2 out of 10, but my opinion of the Dems is a 1.  We need a multi-party system to keep all the parties in check and prevent them from saying "At least we better than them".  

I'm an Episcopalian and a socialist so trust me, I hear you both when it comes to frustration with the political system and congregates with whom you aren't in one accord. If I end up going through seminary and getting ordained, I'm probably going to be my bishop's "problem child." 

[Bang]

1 hour ago, LadySkinsFan said:

1. They don't have the money to move. 

2. They don't want to live there.

3. They don't want to do that work.

 

 

3. is a load of crap, no matter who wants to slice it whichever way they want. I always say when folks say "americans don't want that work"..  well, the person who used to do it does, but he can't afford to work for what the employer will pay the immigrant under the table, (and if he's illegal, that is even less.)

 

American workers are sold out by their employers who give away their jobs to people willing to work it for less than the legal minimum wage.

And our country has hung them out to dry by pretending they have too much arrogance to do the work they used to do before getting priced out by the immigrant and sold out by their boss.

This is the part of the illegal immigration problem that doesn't make sense to me. It seems that to clean up a mess, you have to find out what is causing it and shut off the problem..  and the American companies who have perpetrated this on American workers don't ever seem to have any of this stick to them.

 

~Bang

[Burgold]

It's also the problem of us demanding cheap produce. The prices we want to see at the grocery store squeezes the margins for the farmer. Many are afraid of what it means to be competitive if they have to pay an honest wage.

[Hersh]

18 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

 

3. is a load of crap, no matter who wants to slice it whichever way they want. I always say when folks say "americans don't want that work"..  well, the person who used to do it does, but he can't afford to work for what the employer will pay the immigrant under the table, (and if he's illegal, that is even less.)

 

American workers are sold out by their employers who give away their jobs to people willing to work it for less than the legal minimum wage.

And our country has hung them out to dry by pretending they have too much arrogance to do the work they used to do before getting priced out by the immigrant and sold out by their boss.

This is the part of the illegal immigration problem that doesn't make sense to me. It seems that to clean up a mess, you have to find out what is causing it and shut off the problem..  and the American companies who have perpetrated this on American workers don't ever seem to have any of this stick to them.

 

~Bang

 

There may be some places where people are paying illegal immigrants under the table, but there are definitely jobs Americans don't want. 

[twa]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

There may be some places where people are paying illegal immigrants under the table, but there are definitely jobs Americans don't want. 

 

Quit paying them not to work and see if the attitude changes.

I do a lot of jobs I'd rather not.

[Zguy28]

17 minutes ago, Burgold said:

It's also the problem of us demanding cheap produce. The prices we want to see at the grocery store squeezes the margins for the farmer. Many are afraid of what it means to be competitive if they have to pay an honest wage.

Ask a person with a family with kids and makes less than $50k about cheap produce. Especially when you don't want them to be obese.

[No Excuses]

Recount going on in Virginia House District 94. The GOP candidate had a 10 vote lead as of this morning. With 1/3rd of the precincts recounted, his lead is down to 5 votes.

 

If the recount flips the district to Democrats, the VA House will be tied 50-50.

[LD0506]

53 minutes ago, Burgold said:

It's also the problem of us demanding cheap produce. The prices we want to see at the grocery store squeezes the margins for the farmer. Many are afraid of what it means to be competitive if they have to pay an honest wage.

 

My problem is with all the middlemen that screw the farmers AND the consumers. Cooperative ventures that allow dairy farmers for instance to process and market their goods see a substantial increase in the $$$ in the farmers pockets without jacking prices. Large scale agricultural corporations are designed to maximize profits, you can't look at what passes for a tomato in the store and tell me they give one small **** about quality, while at the same time the workers doing the actual labor get seriously screwed.

 

The concept in this country that any and everything is a commodity to be cornered and squeezed for maximum return is the root of a great many of our issues.

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

Gonna be pissed if I find out my cousin in Newport News didn't vote.