Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[pcbothwel]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Browns won't be moving on from Kizer. Frankly the team will probably spend most of their picks next year on defense and probably another WR. Bills may want to find out what they have in Peterman before they do anything.

 

Also, no on Alex Smith. My friend is a massive Chiefs fan and I have to hear him rant about Captain Checkdown every week. He's a great game manager who takes advantage of playing with a good defense. What we saw Thurs is definitely the exception to the norm.

 

I am not saying Dalton, Smith, Bradford, etc. are the answer. Im saying we could draft Rosen/Allen with our pick or maybe Fitzgerald/Stidham in round 2/3 and also sign someone like Smith... Personal Sleeper is Lagow from Indiana. We scouted/drafted Sudfeld at Indiana so i assume we have a good understanding of their philosophy. i think Lagow has a higher ceiling than Sudfeld, but we'll see this season. 

[Bonez3]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So paying the guy 44M over the last 2 years is considered winning?

 

Whether you think Kirk is the next Drew Brees or the next Brian Hoyer, how can you possibly think the team has handled him well?  If he's truly as bad as many of you think he is (and to be fair, looked yesterday) than the FO should know that better than anybody and played their hand way differently.  It's fine for fans to be unsure as it's not our money nor are we paid to make the decisions, but you should expect much more out of your FO.

Kirk was bad yesterday.  No doubt.  But it's hard to step up when there is nothing to step into.

 

 

 

 

Obviously not that easy as most everybody wasn't sure if he was worth it our not. Was it the longest audition ever, maybe. If you're like me and yesterday's game was the final verdict, than the Skins definitely won because they're not locked into 20+ mil a year for the next 3 years. That's if he signed last year to a more friendly QB contract given rise in market prices. 

 

I'm actually more relieved that we don't have to suffer through him for 3 more years not pursuing a real QB in that time. Frankly, the Skins FO should come out looking very good after all IMO. Curt is an average QB that can pretty much be found with not a lot of searching and a hell of a lot cheaper.

[Voice_of_Reason]

46 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Come'on now. First only half of the fans would forgive the first 58 minutes.

 

The vast majority of fans that don't post on message boards wouldn't give a good God Damn if we won the game.  The ones that post on message board (and call into talk shows) are ones that generally pay more attention and are more informed and stuck on their opinions.  

 

Of those fans, some would not forgive the first 58 minutes, others would. 

 

But by enlarge, most fans would just be happy with a win.  

 

46 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

And second we have seen this song and dance before. Dude wasnt driving us 80 yards for the TD. He just wasnt. 

 

But you are right the call wasnt meaningless and it totally ended the game. But im ok with the refs cheating us versus Kirk failing us yet again.  

He probably wasn't, because he didn't really look like he could through the entire game.  But he has driven the team down for game tying/game winning scores a bunch in the past.  

 

40 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I would have preferred he had the chance for better or worse.  I thought if there was one place where all fans would stand together it would be on the refs ripping us off badly to end that game.

 

Kirk has driven us down the field for the lead on numerous occasions in the past, even if the defense let the opposition score 12 seconds later making it null and void.  I'll concede that I can't recall a time where he's led the team down the field for a win in a game he's played so poorly in for the entirety of the game.  When he's bad, he's bad.

He could have had the chance.  I hate to do this, but Kirk is being paid like a top 5 QB.  So, I ask you, would the following 4 QBs most likely have coughed it up right there, or would they have seen there was no hope and just fallen down:  Brady, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan.  I'm going to bet that just about none of them would cough the ball up there, even if their OL lost immediately.  

 

34 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I mean I'm not defending Kirk at all for yesterday, because he was awful (I'm on the record as very pro-signing him), but I've read this argument a bunch of times and it's kind of annoying.

 

No, he's not Rodgers or Brady in terms of comebacks, but he was one of the best in the league last year alone (fourth in 4QC and fifth in GWD).  He's literally done a GWD against the Eagles where he needed a touchdown to score.  He had five last year alone.  It baffles me that people think that he didn't have a chance.  And this is what was the most infuriating part of the completely blown call.  If he never had a shot, then it would've been missing out on a couple of Hail Marys.  In this instance, Kirk had a significant chance to win it.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/passing.htm

He has, except in each case, he's played really well through the game, and the defense was crapping the bed.  When he has a bad game, he typically continues to have a bad game.  That's one thing that I admire about Russell Wilson.  Ok, maybe the ONLY thing I admire about Wilson.  He can be having an attrocious game, but all of a sudden with 3 minutes to go, just turn into another guy.  

 

Kirk was playing like poop for most of the game.  He had a stretch where he was doing better (14/20), then he threw the red zone INT.  That was essentially it.  

 

28 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

1.  Crappy pass defense like 2015 & 2016..................................Check it sucks

2.  Crappy rush defense like 2015 & 2016...................................Check it sucks

3.  Crappy rushing offense like 2015 & 2016 ..............................Check it sucks

4.  Middle of the OL really sucks now..........................................Yes, it's putrid

5.  Mediocre passing offense without Garcon & Jackson............Yep, absolutely

 

Fears of 2017 preseason confirmed, the Skins absolutely blow.  A really strong passing game elevated a crappy team to mediocre but when the passing attack is mediocre without Jackson, Garcon and yes McVey the Skins absolutely blow.

 

Maybe I'll be shocked and Pryor and Doctson will start to perform like the stars people hoped for and Jay will take a look at this mess and sort things out but it looks like a total meltdown scenario to me.  I can see Jay and company fired with Bruce Allen telling Snyder "see, I knew we shouldn't offer Cousins the big bucks" and Cousins thinking to himself "I'm glad I didn't negotiate with the Skins and get stuck.  Snyder doesn't know who to run a franchise.  Now they won't tag me and I'll be free to sign with a good team.  I hope Ben retires!"

 

This is a very good post.  All of the fears of the 2017 off season came crashing down on our heads.  

 

1. Did they do enough to replace 2 1000 yard receivers? Nope.

2. Is Doctson going to play meaningful minutes and contribute? Nope.  Hello Ryan Grant!

3. Did they do enough to spark a run game by not adding anybody, expecting Rob Kelley to be good?  Nope.  (psst: This is the same thing they did last year with Matt Jones and it didn't work.)

4.  Did they bring in competition for C/G?  Nope

5. Did they do anything to improve the pass rush?  Yes.  They drafted Allen.  Was that enough? Nope.

 

 

[Llevron]

56 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I would have preferred he had the chance for better or worse.  I thought if there was one place where all fans would stand together it would be on the refs ripping us off badly to end that game.

 

 

I actually changed my mind after your post a little further up so yea im there. But being honest I didnt expect much. I would have much rather seen what happened, though. There is no denying that. 

[NoCalMike]

If Kirk would have led a GM drive to end the game, it wouldn't be about "forgiving him for the first 58 mins" it would be more about KIrk showing the ability to shake off a so-so performance to come up big in the clutch against a defense that had shown all day they could rattle him. 

 

There still would be plenty to critique and work on for the future so the team wouldn't be in that position next time. (Namely the awful INT off his back foot in the redzone, something he has a habit of doing).

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Meh.  I blame the refs.  And Cousins.  And Moses.  And Crowder.  And Pryor.

 

It's a team win and a team loss, and the refs really did eff it up.  Nobody's individual mistakes take away blame from anyone else's, it's not like they cancel out or anything.  There's more than one "You Did A **** Job" trophy, and lots of people won yesterday

 

YES!  This is what I've been trying to say but couldn't find the words.  It's what people will focus on, and it does take the blame away from others who ALSO deserve it.

The Redskins FAN in me blames the ref....

 

 

The Redskins DIE HARD in me knows that the fumble didnt determine the outcome. 

[PartyPosse]

23 minutes ago, pcbothwel said:

 

I am not saying Dalton, Smith, Bradford, etc. are the answer. Im saying we could draft Rosen/Allen with our pick or maybe Fitzgerald/Stidham in round 2/3 and also sign someone like Smith... Personal Sleeper is Lagow from Indiana. We scouted/drafted Sudfeld at Indiana so i assume we have a good understanding of their philosophy. i think Lagow has a higher ceiling than Sudfeld, but we'll see this season. 

Rather grab Mayfield. I think because of his height and the fact there are so many supposed blue chip QBs coming out this year that he drops way more than he should. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

He could have had the chance.  I hate to do this, but Kirk is being paid like a top 5 QB.  So, I ask you, would the following 4 QBs most likely have coughed it up right there, or would they have seen there was no hope and just fallen down:  Brady, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan.  I'm going to bet that just about none of them would cough the ball up there, even if their OL lost immediately.  

 

Bruce Allen made this guy a top 5 salary QB, so that falls on him but I'll play along.  I've literally seen every one of those guys at some point in their career get bludgeoned for a strip sack at a crucial time in a game.  I'd have to go back and relive the misery by watching it again to determine how much culpability Kirk has in this instance but at the time, I wasn't thinking 'F Kirk' I was thinking we got lucky that his arm was moving forward and it was a simple reversal. 

[SkinsFTW]

28 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

The bottom line is Kirk Cousins sucks in the red zone. Badly. Perhaps worst in the league. 

 

Since he started playing on 1 year contracts. Prior to that he was one of the best in the league.

[PartyPosse]

37 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's where we differ.  I don't think all the negatives were correctable mistakes.  At least not correctable anytime soon.  Of all the folks that were bad yesterday, the only player I feel any level of confidence in correcting his mistakes quickly is Kirk, as I've seen him do it before.  A lot of the issues we had last season we had yesterday as well, such as giving up pressure up the middle, not being able to run the ball, Kelley being very basic, etc.  Add to that acclimating Pryor in to the offense, his dropsies, Doctson on a milk carton and Reed hampered by the toe. 

I'm hoping we start giving Perine more opportunity because I think he's the kind of RB that can make something out of nothing simply by willing his way forward. Fournette didn't necessarily have a ton of holes yesterday but bulldozed his way to 100 yards. Pryor had 3 of his 4 drops last year in the first 2 games so i'm confident he can fix his problems. 

6 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Since he started playing on 1 year contracts. Prior to that he was one of the best in the league.

Technically when he was in the last year of his deal he was on a one year contract. 

6 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Since he started playing on 1 year contracts. Prior to that he was one of the best in the league.

Technically when he was in the last year of his deal he was on a one year contract. 

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Since he started playing on 1 year contracts. Prior to that he was one of the best in the league.

Technically when he was in the last year of his deal he was on a one year contract. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

You think they really want to pay 25-30 million per year for a game manager?

 

They'll pay above $20 million per on a 4 or 5 year deal. That's the going rate.

 

Again, the game in opening game of Houston's season was "Savage vs. Bortles." That game was on every tv in Hell's sports book yesterday.

 

I'm not sure there are any good QBs under 30 in the league right now (Don't name them, please). Cousins will get suitors.

[HTTRDynasty]

I heard Kirk today basically blaming the OL saying "protection could be better".  I hate to break it to him, but the pressure is only going to get worse from here.  These teams on our schedule all have beastly front 7's:

 

Rams

Chiefs

Seahawks

Vikings

Giants

Chargers

Cardinals

Broncos

 

He better learn how to perform at a high level with pressure in his face, and quickly.

 

Just now, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I'm not sure there are any good QBs under 30 in the league right now (Don't name them, please). Cousins will get suitors.

 

I won't name them, but there are actually a fair amount of good QBs under 30 right now that I would take over Cousins.

Just now, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I'm not sure there are any good QBs under 30 in the league right now (Don't name them, please). Cousins will get suitors.

 

I won't name them, but there are actually a fair amount of good QBs under 30 right now that I would take over Cousins.

[DM72]

So he's throwing the OL under the bus? 

 

Where's Gruden?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I heard Kirk today basically blaming the OL saying "protection could be better".  I hate to break it to him, but the pressure is only going to get worse from here. 

I read all of his post game comments earlier due to someone claiming that he pissed them off by being an ass.  All I saw was him basically saying that he wasn't very good and stopped short of calling the sack fumble TD for the BS it was by saying he had plenty of opportunities prior to that.

 

I get the impression that if he said the "protection could be better" he was asked a question specifically about protection and then followed it up with things he can do better.

[dav87sc]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

 

Agreed.  No coincidence his misses were consistently high.  I do not understand why he has these dumbass games from time to time where he forgets how to be a qb.  He looked just as awful last year against Steelers opening weekend.

 

Wtf kirk

It comes across to me as a maturity thing with Kirk.  When he plays well, his emotions are up and it seems he gets in this “I can do anything, make any throw” kind of mindset.  Then his concentration lapses and he makes bad decisions thinking he can pull any throw off.  A regular example is not using sound mechanics, like throwing off his back foot, instead of planting that front foot and zipping the ball into those tight spots.  He just doesn’t come across as a mature professional that does things the right way all the time, because it is the right way.

To me, he looked stunned when he threw off his back foot and it resulted in the INT in the RZ.

When he is not playing well, it is a crap shoot.  He doesn’t seem to fall back on fundamentals. I know in the sports I did play, anytime things started to get a little wonky, coaches would stress fundamentals.  I understand it is easy to get lost in the moment and have lapses, but at this level, that shouldn’t be a regular occurrence.  

I don’t think it is controversial to say Kirk is not that good a QB to be able to think he can get away with poor mechanics or decision making.  Yet, that is what we see in 6 or so games each season.

Serious question(and maybe better for another thread)…..if the QB is inconsistent in his throws(too high, wrong shoulder, behind, etc.), how does that effect the receivers running routes?  Does it add any hesitation to the route running, not being confident that the ball will be in the right spot?  Can it create or lead to “short arms”, not as high jumps, or less than enthusiastic/clean routes?  or create uncertainty in their minds that they are not in the right spot(if new WR's)?  I am not giving the receivers any sort of pass on not hauling in make-able catches or just plain drops and would hope that any receiver that is less than fully committed does not see the field.  Does anyone out there with a trained eye watching see any signs of this?  I would lay this at the feet of the QB, his leadership and inspiration for teammates.  Is there any worry about this with Kirk?

[Garcon More Wine]

he was clearly pissed at the oline.  his post game comments were pretty unkirk (if griffin had said that there'd have been a 2 hour special on espn to breakdown what his comments may have meant with a virtual thesaurus).

 

he was screaming at trent during the game which is very unkirk, however i dug the intensity.  but yeah, yesterday the oline was getting brutalized.  i get that philly has a great pass rush but damn.  ill also blame gruden for that, you dont call a bunch of field surveying 5-7 step drops against jim schwartz, you murder them with slants and little dump offs.  we refused to do this yesterday and we paid for it.  and man we had NO answer for those jailbreak blitzes.  i fully expect to see teams blitzing kirk a lot more this season until he makes them pay.

[Riggo'sRangers]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I read all of his post game comments earlier due to someone claiming that he pissed them off by being an ass.  All I saw was him basically saying that he wasn't very good and stopped short of calling the sack fumble TD for the BS it was by saying he had plenty of opportunities prior to that.

 

I get the impression that if he said the "protection could be better" he was asked a question specifically about protection and then followed it up with things he can do better.

He did, and covered a few other topics as well.  I guess they are using JDoc to give breathers to receivers.  That is, in and of itself, something special. Yeesh. Hail

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2017/09/11/kirk-cousins-after-eagles-loss-the-protection-can-be-better/

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, Garcon More Wine said:

he was clearly pissed at the oline.  his post game comments were pretty unkirk (if griffin had said that there'd have been a 2 hour special on espn to breakdown what his comments may have meant with a virtual thesaurus).

 

he was screaming at trent during the game which is very unkirk, however i dug the intensity.  but yeah, yesterday the oline was getting brutalized.  i get that philly has a great pass rush but damn.  ill also blame gruden for that, you dont call a bunch of field surveying 5-7 step drops against jim schwartz, you murder them with slants and little dump offs.  we refused to do this yesterday and we paid for it.  and man we had NO answer for those jailbreak blitzes.  i fully expect to see teams blitzing kirk a lot more this season until he makes them pay.

IF they're not going to throw to Reed or if he's hurt, I'd rather keep a blocking TE in there. 

[Garcon More Wine]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

IF they're not going to throw to Reed or if he's hurt, I'd rather keep a blocking TE in there. 

 

i think someone mentioned that down in the redzone we had a play on 3rd down where Reed stayed in to block.

 

if that is true, that might be the worst playcall in history.  you have arguably the best red zone TE in football (in the NFC at least), and on 3rd down and the redzone (where we already struggle), we have our best pass catcher block (and reed is the worst blocker on the team now that djax is gone lol).

[Voice_of_Reason]

55 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Bruce Allen made this guy a top 5 salary QB, so that falls on him but I'll play along.  I've literally seen every one of those guys at some point in their career get bludgeoned for a strip sack at a crucial time in a game.  I'd have to go back and relive the misery by watching it again to determine how much culpability Kirk has in this instance but at the time, I wasn't thinking 'F Kirk' I was thinking we got lucky that his arm was moving forward and it was a simple reversal. 

Bruce Allen (and the team) made a fair (in my opinion) opening offer in the last round of negotiations which Kirk never countered.  They also offered him contracts at a lower dollar level in 2015, which he turned down.  He wants to be paid like a top 5 QB.  He is being paid like a top 5 QB.  Over the last 7 games he's played, he's played like a top 5 QB once, and like a bottom 1/3 QB the rest of the games.

 

[TheCoach22]

3 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

But if we had Eli and not Cousins it would be "he really misses Desean Jackson, that's the guy who makes the world go round".

Eli Manning is a below average NFL QB who had two well-timed hot streaks when he had a tremendous D on the other side of the ball in NY. Were a David Tyree miracle following an Asante Samuels dropped INT from the entire world knowing what is obvious to any NFC East fan paying attention. The guy sucks. If the debate is whether Cousins can ever be Eli, please cut bait now. 

 

Of course, at least for now, Cousins misses Pierre and DJax... he needs multiple weapons to do the job. I think that is one of the points this thread had tried to establish. Kirk needs weapons, still makes boneheaded plays we would expect in a year one starter, rubs some the wrong way by the lack of accountability, probably isn't worth the money, but will probably get it, we're all shell-shocked by poor QB play the last quarter century and most still want us to be the team that overpays, it was only one game, but it wasn't one game it is a pattern, we will get them next week, or maybe we won't, we can go 9-7 with Kirk, but we might go 4-12 or 0-16. Did I cover it?

[Boss_Hogg]

RGIII said the exact same thing about his protection in 2014 and we know what happened. 

 

the team is already imploding and pointing fingers after week one. yikes. 

[SkinsGuy]

1 hour ago, PortisBetts said:

The bottom line is Kirk Cousins sucks in the red zone. Badly. Perhaps worst in the league. 

 

In 2015, he was nearly tops in the red zone.

 

22 TDs, I believe in the red zone.

 

He's the same QB. He has, what is shown itself to be, a pretty good pass-pro O-line. He still has Jordan Reed. He has Crowder and a new tall WR in Pryor. He has Chris Thompson.

 

I don't know why they are having so much trouble in the red zone now.

[PortisBetts]

6 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

In 2015, he was nearly tops in the red zone.

 

22 TDs, I believe in the red zone.

 

He's the same QB. He has, what is shown itself to be, a pretty good pass-pro O-line. He still has Jordan Reed. He has Crowder and a new tall WR in Pryor. He has Chris Thompson.

 

I don't know why they are having so much trouble in the red zone now.

Yeah, he definitely was. 

 

No idea what happened between then and now, but it certainly isnt for the better.

 

Redskins would get a guy to go from best to worst at qb. Not the first time this has happened in the last 5 years.