RandyHolt Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 He seems like a system guy. When the system falls apart, he quickly struggles. He is definitely a guy DC's should try to rattle early in games. Until we see better pocket presence and results under heavy pressure, blitzing him is the way to stifle our offense. His struggles in that regard were on clear display Sunday, watching Wentz Houdini like evading free guys without issue time and time again. QBs in the modern era do not stand in the pocket throwing with proper form taking a monster hit to complete a pass. So either they panic throw, evade/scramble, or wilt. The NFL is a brutal game and QBs have to look after themselves, especially if their OL cannot protect them. It looks like A gaps will be blown up again this year. Jay will likely play the continuity card before trying any new OL. Kirk struggles without his feet set but did add the off script scramble at least. Jay may need to consider a short pass offense to slow down the rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I'll ask the Kirk bashers once again what is your Plan B? My gut tells me that if we don't make / win a playoff game this season, Kirk is gone regardless. He says it's not about the money, and that God told him not to sign here... well we've reportedly lowballed him 3 times now, and the only consistency is that he has not come back with a signature on a contract. Something tells me God isn't going to change his mind in Kirks eyes after this season, unless he see's a level of long term success. IMHO the odds are we're going to have to go plan be whether it's us letting him go, or him choosing to walk. Chances are come the 1st day of the new league year, he's not a member of the Washington Redskins, and its most likely going to be at the hand of Kirk, and not us. The backup plan has to be draft a QB. This is supposed to be a very deep draft for QBs, and the learning curve is getting smaller. IF this is what happens, we either need to sign Jay to an extension, or get a new HC in here early enough that he can work with personnel to figure out the best fit with the system... this nonsense of handing a QB thats already here to a new HC is tiresome. Get the QB that the coach, gm, scouts, OC, QB coach, everyone is on the same page with. It might be Jay, it might be someone else, who knows... but we NEED to have HC and QB on the same page. If we get through camp and QB - X can't start day 1, Colt can take the reigns for part of a season. It's going to be disappointing, but this nonsense of the way we've built the team is terrible. If we go this route, it free's up quite a bit money to look at extensions for people like Zach Brown and Pryor, as well as having additional money to look at the O-line and other places. We have never had a true reset... I don't want the heartache, or frustration, but it's how good teams are built. Start with the coach, fit the system, then get players based on that system. I will admit, my mind is not made up here... this is just the plan b that I see being the most likely. I don't want to reset this team.. it's a long, painful process, but I often find myself asking if this team has the makeup needed to be capable of not even winning a Superbowl, but just be a consistent contender for the division. I'm really starting to think that it doesn't. Kirk is going to be 30 at the end of this season. To expect him to be anything other then what he is... is a hard argument to make. Most QBs don't peak AFTER 30... and his window might be another 4-5 years anyway. I ask you, do you think this team could be a contender in 2 - 3 years? My gut says probably not, and that might be why Kirk is hesitant to sign. He may feel, as well as a large part of this fanbase feels, that this team might be floating around .500 for the next few years, and his chances of a championship are dwindling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Plan B seems to based on the fact that we signed a ton of players to one year contracts. That makes me think that they have designed a trap door to escape when they blow it all up. The front office got players who we should be able to win with, but they gave themselves an out by showing no commitment to this group. We're going to have an absolute ton of free agents next year. Both our own former draftees and the recent crop of free agents. Not sure if it's possible to resign everyone should everyone "prove it." It's almost like a flier year where the front office is planning to start over, but is giving this group one more go just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I would really like Jay to go with more slants and short passes and move the chains 10 yards in 3 tries while running the ball as well. This is what the Pats do. Brady is not know for long throws on every pass play. Moving the chains and tiring the other teams D is the key. Not only that but this will help Pryor and Kirk connection as well with Reed not fully healthy. At the end the goal is to win the game. Jay is a big fan of the fade and now has two tall WR. We should be able to win the RedZone battle but the run game needs to improve for goal line stance situations as well. I will wait and see how these first 4 games shake out. One down and 3 to go. Our D looks good but Wentz escaping was embarrassing. It is going to take the whole team to step up and get the job done if they even want to try to sniff the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo'sRangers Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, zskins said: I would really like Jay to go with more slants and short passes and move the chains 10 yards in 3 tries while running the ball as well. This is what the Pats do. Brady is not know for long throws on every pass play. Moving the chains and tiring the other teams D is the key. Not only that but this will help Pryor and Kirk connection as well with Reed not fully healthy. At the end the goal is to win the game... The other thing about lots of short passes is it gets the defense back on their heels to cover the short routes. They become less aggressive/blitz happy simply by design. I've always wanted more short passes. It's just effective and will open up the deep passing as a side benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 54 minutes ago, Bonez3 said: Bradford looked incredible yesterday. I will keep an eye on Cutler. The draft will have 3-4 1st rounders again. Good enough? Are Bradford and Cutler lateral moves? Not in my opinion if both shine, especially Bradford. The money is already earmarked, so the budget is essentially there if you wanted to get a vet AND draft a rookie. Point being, there are many options here, not just a plan B Cutler? Bradford? Always a solid plan to make an assessment based on the most recent game and completely ignore what they did in previous years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I'll ask the Kirk bashers once again what is your Plan B? Easy. Max protect, and scrap 3/4ths of the playbook, or just have him throw quick passes. Roll him out early and often instead of 5 and 7 foot drops, get his feet moving and brain thinking he is going to get clobbered less. Try a new OL coach, or new OL combos. Long term I felt we should have drafted a QB this past draft. It shouldn't have taken another preseason for Jay to know he didn't like the mole Suds. So we have to draft one anyways, with him now gone. That's plan B. Isn't it a deep draft? Cater the playbook to the kid which is all the rage the past 5 years. Many playoff teams have ft. young QBs recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: Easy. Max protect, and scrap 3/4ths of the playbook, or just have him throw quick passes. Roll him out early and often instead of 5 and 7 foot drops, get his feet moving and brain thinking he is going to get clobbered less. Try a new OL coach, or new OL combos. Long term I felt we should have drafted a QB this past draft. It shouldn't have taken another preseason for Jay to know he didn't like the mole Suds. So we have to draft one anyways, with him now gone. That's plan B. Drafting a QB just to draft a QB gives you Patrick Ramsey. Last year was not a good draft for QBs so it would probably have been a wasted first rounder. It also tells the Cousins camp that they should move on and we could end up with nothing at QB for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortisBetts Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Or we can draft a running back and run the damn ball. Look at all the success these new running backs are having. Running backs are important once again and we dont have one as of now. Unless Brown or Perine are able to come in and play well, we will be stuck with Kelley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Drafting a QB just to draft a QB gives you Patrick Ramsey. Last year was not a good draft for QBs so it would probably have been a wasted first rounder. It also tells the Cousins camp that they should move on and we could end up with nothing at QB for the foreseeable future. I didn't want a first burned last year, I was thinking mid/late round flyer on a Brady prayer, as Kirk played out. We didn't know until July 1st long after the draft how it would play out. A developmental guy, just to keep the pipe filled with guys we liked, vs one we knew (or should have known) we were going to eject. I don't think even fans were high on Sudsie. The backup almost always has a following. And certain not McCoy. Poor Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, RandyHolt said: I didn't want a first burned last year, I was thinking mid/late round flyer on a Brady prayer, as Kirk played out. We didn't know until July 1st long after the draft how it would play out. A developmental guy, just to keep the pipe filled with guys we liked, vs one we knew (or should have known) we were going to eject. I don't think even fans were high on Sudsie. The backup almost always has a following. And certain not McCoy. Poor Colt. "Prayer" is the right word when you talk about drafting a late round QB. In 99.9% of the time you end up with a Nate Sudfeld. Sorry I'm not seeing your plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I'll ask the Kirk bashers once again what is your Plan B? My personal plan B is Kirk Cousins on modest contract while we rebuild the defense and run game. If we cant do that with him then we need to find a vet QB whose contract demands fit that plan. Draft picks on Oline and defense. Money on other peoples amazing and talented skill positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, Llevron said: My personal plan B is Kirk Cousins on modest contract while we rebuild the defense and run game. If we cant do that with him then we need to find a vet QB whose contract demands fit that plan. Draft picks on Oline and defense. Money on other peoples amazing and talented skill positions. Well that is not going to happen Kirk has no reason to sign a modest contract. And we have already seen what happens when teams try to get by with a Ryan Fitzpatrick or Blaine Gabbert. So your plan results in a series of 4 win seasons as we build the rest of the team, then when the time is right (in 4 years) we pull the trigger on a QB in the draft which has about a 10-20% success rate of finding a QB better than what we currently have. I'm still not seeing a viable Plan B folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I'm not sure how we get Kirk on a modest contract. Let's just say his play this season continues to be bad, obviously it can't be as bad as what we saw on Sunday, but bad nonetheless. That's the only way I see him signing a modest contract anywhere, but why would it be here? The fanbase will be ready for Colt by 7:30 on Sunday if he doesn't get it together. He will be tarred and feathered. On the flip side, if he gets it going, he will be out of the realm of a modest contract. The modest contract days left us in 2016. It's either all or nothing at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Burgold said: Plan B seems to based on the fact that we signed a ton of players to one year contracts. That makes me think that they have designed a trap door to escape when they blow it all up. The front office got players who we should be able to win with, but they gave themselves an out by showing no commitment to this group. We're going to have an absolute ton of free agents next year. Both our own former draftees and the recent crop of free agents. Not sure if it's possible to resign everyone should everyone "prove it." It's almost like a flier year where the front office is planning to start over, but is giving this group one more go just in case. Winner winner chicken dinner. Although I think that it was more likely this is super secret plan A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: "Prayer" is the right word when you talk about drafting a late round QB. In 99.9% of the time you end up with a Nate Sudfeld. Sorry I'm not seeing your plan. What's wrong with my viable plan where I said draft a QB next year, and cater the playbook to him, which is all the rage now? I am sure even you considered using the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters20 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 So far, the only location where Kirk has shown any composure is the negotiating table 17 minutes ago, daveakl said: Winner winner chicken dinner. Although I think that it was more likely this is super secret plan A. Lots of players who have proved it and leave during free agency will hopefully finally get us in on the comp pick action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible_Red40 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 55 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: I was thinking mid/late round flyer on a Brady prayer Brady is the exception to the rule. This rarely works at the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCoach22 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Someone suggested a few posts back to sign Jay to an extension if he ultimately is tasked with starting over at QB. I disagree with this, unless we win 10 this season. Jay is almost as inconsistent as his QB. Year 4, no idea what he wants his team identity to be. He talks of a commitment to the run, but he doesn't stay with it. He claims we are a WCO team, but he really only seems committed to PA and slow developing 5-7 step drops on his scripted 15 plays to start each game. This only works when you have a threat at RB, not a slam into the first guy I see in another jersey and plow forward for a yard mentality of the limited Kelley. Gruden's only adjustments in 3+ years has been that he stopped throwing players under the bus at every turn in his pressers and that he's lost a ton of weight. I don't think he has learned a damn thing in three years other than the Haz and the coffee drinkers are really terrible DCs. He got a charitable extension because Danny and BA wanted to showcase "stability" when it became clear behind the scenes they weren't signing Kirk anytime soon and GMSM was going to be kicked to the curb. Gruden married himself to Cousins. If Kirk bounces, bounce Jay as well. I know we are all down about start to the season, but there remains talent on this roster. It isn't just on the offensive side of the ball either as Brown, Norman, and Allen are guys who could start on any NFL defense. There is depth at DB in the event Breeland leaves. Tired of hearing about the back-to-back winning seasons... the team was positioned to win 10-11 last season and Gruden couldn't finish the deal. As for Kirk, he better think long and hard before taking the money elsewhere based on a tip from God. The guy shrinks in the moment and I truly believe he will flop under the pressure of a 100 million dollar contract. If he is in a place like NYJ or SF, I am positive he will flop because the rosters lack any real talent. Garcon will catch 200 balls in SF, as will opposing DBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 27 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Well that is not going to happen Kirk has no reason to sign a modest contract. And we have already seen what happens when teams try to get by with a Ryan Fitzpatrick or Blaine Gabbert. So your plan results in a series of 4 win seasons as we build the rest of the team, then when the time is right (in 4 years) we pull the trigger on a QB in the draft which has about a 10-20% success rate of finding a QB better than what we currently have. I'm still not seeing a viable Plan B folks. I dont know where you get your info but there are alot of problems here. Kirk may not sign a modest deal. But if he keeps up his current play he will have every reason to do so by the end of the season. That should be obvious. Also Fitz and Gabbert are not the only Vet QBs in the league lol. To pretend we have to settle for one of them or someone of their caliber is disingenuous at best and stupid at worst. I also didnt say anything about a 4 win season OR drafting a QB. You actually didn't talk at all about my original plan B. What you described it your plan, not mine. What I said was sign Kirk to modest contract, if possible. If not find me a vet QB, maybe more than 1, that can come in and compete. Add talent and skill on D and in the run game. Draft on the Oline and defense. And come up with a product that a Kirk Cuz type can take to the Super Bowl. Notice im not giving up on the seasons ahead, im not asking for anyone to draft a QB and im not talking about Ryan ****ing Fitzpatrick. I never was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbothwel Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 44 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I'm not sure how we get Kirk on a modest contract. Let's just say his play this season continues to be bad, obviously it can't be as bad as what we saw on Sunday, but bad nonetheless. That's the only way I see him signing a modest contract anywhere, but why would it be here? The fanbase will be ready for Colt by 7:30 on Sunday if he doesn't get it together. He will be tarred and feathered. On the flip side, if he gets it going, he will be out of the realm of a modest contract. The modest contract days left us in 2016. It's either all or nothing at this point. Lets assume he has a good, but not great year. I.E. 4000 yards 25 TD's/12 Ints.... Where does he go? Lets say the 49ers get a top 2-3 pick, do they pass on Darnold/Allen for a 30 y/o Cousins? I dont see the team that will give him some crazy offer. Jimmy G is going somewhere and he'll be younger and cheaper. Darnold, Allen, and Rosen are going top 10, and a team drafting them is NOT signing Kirk... I see a place where Kirk signs 5/100M easy. That would give him 6/125M including this year and I could easily see him talking himself into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drowland Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 It'll be interesting how the contract situation plays out in the off season. Drew Brees, Jimmy Garoppolo and Sam Bradford are all in the final year of their contracts and you have what's looking to be a deep QB draft in 2018. QBs will still demand big contracts, but teams will have more options. It only takes one team that wants Kirk badly but I would be inclined to transition tag him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek1973 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Man, all this after one game> Can we at least agree that you can't do knee jerk reactions after one game and think you are going to fix things? I am not ready to concede anything about KC, bad or good. The fact of the matter is you has to get better and his receivers have to catch the ball. Now on Sunday if his receivers just caught the ball, maybe just maybe we are having a different conversation right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 32 minutes ago, TheCoach22 said: Someone suggested a few posts back to sign Jay to an extension if he ultimately is tasked with starting over at QB. I disagree with this, unless we win 10 this season. Jay is almost as inconsistent as his QB. Year 4, no idea what he wants his team identity to be. He talks of a commitment to the run, but he doesn't stay with it. He claims we are a WCO team, but he really only seems committed to PA and slow developing 5-7 step drops on his scripted 15 plays to start each game. This only works when you have a threat at RB, not a slam into the first guy I see in another jersey and plow forward for a yard mentality of the limited Kelley. It was me. I was speaking toward what the next step may be regarding if Kirk is gone. Like I said in my post, I'm not sold on Jay, and I think he makes a ton of mistakes. That being said, if we get a new QB, we better either replace Gruden or extend him... not just keep him here as the HC for 1 more season, just for his contract to expire, and the QB we draft has a new system going into his 2nd season. It's not my preference. If we start over, we need to TRULY start over. New HC, OC, QB. I will say that I wouldn't mind keeping our Defensive staff intact for now... if the plan meshes with whoever the HC is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, Audible_Red40 said: Brady is the exception to the rule. This rarely works at the QB position. Why did NE draft Brady.... why did we draft Sudsie...It's the GMs drafting late round QBs, not us fans. So there is nothing wrong with fans suggesting trying what GMs do anyways. You'll never hit a home run if you don't swing for the fences once in a while. Do people really think there is no possible QB for us other than Kirk? I see young QBs taking over the league. Did Wentz not look good to anyone. Does Dak Suck. Is Goff a write off. Carr a car crash, Is Kizer a bust at 21? Mariota, Wilson. Heck even Kap and 3 got their teams to the playoffs. Some argue Eli is horrible, wait he has 2 rings. The situation is not helpless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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