Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

 

I'm still not seeing a viable Plan B folks. 

because as the team is built now... there is no plan B to keep on the current track.  Either Kirk signs, or we start over.  

[TheCoach22]

9 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Man, all this after one game>  Can we at least agree that you can't do knee jerk reactions after one game and think you are going to fix things?  I am not ready to concede anything about KC, bad or good.  The fact of the matter is you has to get better and his receivers have to catch the ball.  Now on Sunday if his receivers just caught the ball, maybe just maybe we are having a different conversation right now.

I will agree there is a lot of emotion in the thread, and I am probably one of the most guilty in regards to this. However, this is not one game... outside of the Bears game, Cousins was below average QB the last month of the season (when he was supposed to be positioning himself for a contract). This is just a fact.

 

He was also a very average QB the first four games of last season. So, what you really have is a QB who was good for half-a-season last year and very average to below average the rest of the season. The year before he started slow and was a damn good QB the back-half of the season. So, in two years as a full-time starter, the guy is 50/50 in my opinion. You don't pay 25 million annually for that.

 

This is year three in the same system... that is an eternity in today's NFL. He has to play consistent football this season. He should be able to shoulder more, i.e. offset the loss of his WRs based on time in the system and playing time. The guy doesn't appear to have gotten better, he's actually regressed the last five starts.

[Llevron]

17 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Do people really think there is no possible QB for us other than Kirk? I see young QBs taking over the league.  Did Wentz not look good to anyone. Does Dak Suck. Is Goff a write off. Carr a car crash, Is Kizer a bust at 21? Mariota, Wilson. Heck even Kap and 3 got their teams to the playoffs. Some argue Eli is horrible, wait he has 2 rings.

 

The situation is not helpless.

 

Yea its not impossible. Its not easy. But its not impossible. What helps is having a team that is just a QB away. We dont have that yet but if we did we wouldn't even be talking about this. 

[OVCChairman]

22 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Why did NE draft Brady.... why did we draft Sudsie...It's the GMs drafting late round QBs, not us fans.  So there is nothing wrong with fans suggesting trying what GMs do anyways. You'll never hit a home run if you don't swing for the fences once in a while.

 

Do people really think there is no possible QB for us other than Kirk? I see young QBs taking over the league.  Did Wentz not look good to anyone. Does Dak Suck. Is Goff a write off. Carr a car crash, Is Kizer a bust at 21? Mariota, Wilson. Heck even Kap and 3 got their teams to the playoffs. Some argue Eli is horrible, wait he has 2 rings.

 

The situation is not helpless.

 

 

yep. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

What's wrong with my viable plan where I said draft a QB next year, and cater the playbook to him, which is all the rage now?

 

I am sure even you considered using the draft.

 

I guess I'm still confused on what that plan is. I have seen you say draft a QB last year, a weak QB class, and take a mid round flyer ala Tom Brady. I already posted how the odds are against these strategies big time.  Unless I missed it this is the first time I've seen you propose drafting a QB next year.  If that's the case I can possibly see that scenario, depends on how this season plays out. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

If we sign Cousins to a LTD because "there is no Plan B", we're ****ed.

[RandyHolt]

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Yea its not impossible. Its not easy. But its not impossible. What helps is having a team that is just a QB away. We dont have that yet but if we did we wouldn't even be talking about this. 

Good stuff. Nothing in the NFL is easy.  I do think the days of the guy having feign injury in preseason only to hold a clipboard for 3 years to be anything in the league, have finally ended. My pet peev? While wasting 3 prime years of the athletes limited shelf life.

 

For some reason it seemed imperative to OCs to stubbornly never cater the playbook to young QBs, make them learn the whole thing before getting 1 snap. Of course by then, the OC gets axed as does the coach. In comes a new coach and playbook for a year, and they get axed. And then folks wonder why QBs largely struggle. How about Jason Campbell having the 800 page Saunders playbook dropped into his lap. It took them a full year to figure out to scale it down to 400 pages. A whole year.

 

At least now, you know if your young QB has a chance of succeeding without wasting 3 years.

5 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I guess I'm still confused on what that plan is. I have seen you say draft a QB last year, a weak QB class, and take a mid round flyer ala Tom Brady. I already posted how the odds are against these strategies big time.  Unless I missed it this is the first time I've seen you propose drafting a QB next year.  If that's the case I can possibly see that scenario, depends on how this season plays out. 

It's certainly not very clear, but here it was

 

Pertinent Quote:

" So we have to draft one anyways, with him (Suds) now gone. That's plan B. Isn't it a deep draft? "

[NewCliche21]

20 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

The Redskins FAN in me blames the ref....

 

 

The Redskins DIE HARD in me knows that the fumble didnt determine the outcome. 

 

It determined the outcome as much as everything else.  To blame one play is bull****, to absolve one play because other plays were bad is bull****.

 

It's like saying, "Oh, if he would've made that basket at the buzzer, then they would have won the game."  Well, yeah, and if the other guy made that other basket in the first quarter, then they would have won the game.  It all matters.

[Redd]

It's too early to blow it all up but they should consider it if we end up 0-4 imo.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

59 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont know where you get your info but there are alot of problems here. Kirk may not sign a modest deal. But if he keeps up his current play he will have every reason to do so by the end of the season. That should be obvious. Also Fitz and Gabbert are not the only Vet QBs in the league lol. To pretend we have to settle for one of them or someone of their caliber is disingenuous at best and stupid at worst. 

 

I also didnt say anything about a 4 win season OR drafting a QB. You actually didn't talk at all about my original plan B. What you described it your plan, not mine.

 

What I said was sign Kirk to modest contract, if possible. If not find me a vet QB, maybe more than 1, that can come in and compete. Add talent and skill on D and in the run game. Draft on the Oline and defense. And come up with a product that a Kirk Cuz type can take to the Super Bowl. Notice im not giving up on the seasons ahead, im not asking for anyone to draft a QB and im not talking about Ryan ****ing Fitzpatrick. I never was. 

 

I'm not sure where you are getting YOUR information from but Kirk Cousins is not signing a modest contract in Washington.  Google  "Supply and Demand", then get back to me.  There are 32 teams in the NFL and half of them do not have a QB as good as Cousins.  So you need to understand that Kirk Cousins is not signing a modest contract in Washington. 

 

You also need to understand the lack of viable  QB options around the league before calling others stupid.  If there are so many options out there then please explain why teams recently started seasons with Brock Osweild, Josh McCowan, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and something called Cody Kessler as their opening day starters. 

 

So please tell me what viable options you see at QB for us that are out there. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

It determined the outcome as much as everything else.  To blame one play is bull****, to absolve one play because other plays were bad is bull****.

 

It's like saying, "Oh, if he would've made that basket at the buzzer, then they would have won the game."  Well, yeah, and if the other guy made that other basket in the first quarter, then they would have won the game.  It all matters.

so we agree 

[Audible_Red40]

38 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Why did NE draft Brady.... why did we draft Sudsie...It's the GMs drafting late round QBs, not us fans.  So there is nothing wrong with fans suggesting trying what GMs do anyways. You'll never hit a home run if you don't swing for the fences once in a while.

 

Do people really think there is no possible QB for us other than Kirk? I see young QBs taking over the league.  Did Wentz not look good to anyone. Does Dak Suck. Is Goff a write off. Carr a car crash, Is Kizer a bust at 21? Mariota, Wilson. Heck even Kap and 3 got their teams to the playoffs. Some argue Eli is horrible, wait he has 2 rings.

 

The situation is not helpless.

 

 

I'm not suggesting  there is no other QB other than Kirk.  What I am implying is that we'll be wasting time waiting for that diamond in the rough of a QB who was drafted in the 6th round like Brady.  If you don't believe Brady is Brady in large part because of Belichick, you're fooling yourself.

 

If you don't believe that as of right now that Dak is Dak in large part because of that offensive line and running game, you're fooling yourself.

 

All the others are "high" draft picks, save for Wilson, who had arguably one of the most dominating and opportunistic defense of this decade.

 

You're talking Brady at first but then go on to list a bunch of high draft picks.  If you keep looking for your Brady you'll end up With Sudsie more often than not.

[NewCliche21]

Just now, OVCChairman said:

so we agree 

 

Yep!  It would be super easy to blame it on the ref or a fumble or a bad run or blown coverage or any given play.  They all matter.

 

It's like when Kirk threw the pick six to lose the Atlanta game in overtime.  It was a bad throw and Grant ran a bad route.  There was so much argument over whose fault it was, like only one person can screw up on a play.

[LadySkinsFan]

I'm inclined to let him seek his fortune elsewhere next season when he is a free agent again. The market will determine his value and we don't have to pay it.

 

I'm tired of this.

 

And the way the OL is playing, he'll be lucky to make it unscathed this year.

[OVCChairman]

Just now, NewCliche21 said:

 

Yep!  It would be super easy to blame it on the ref or a fumble or a bad run or blown coverage or any given play.  They all matter.

 

It's like when Kirk threw the pick six to lose the Atlanta game in overtime.  It was a bad throw and Grant ran a bad route.  There was so much argument over whose fault it was, like only one person can screw up on a play.

well at time it can be a singular fault, but a lot of the time you have to look to the common denominator, and recently Kirk has been that.  'Brain Fart' mistakes in critical situations seem to follow him, whether he's the sole contributor or not... he is a common contributor. 

[NewCliche21]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

well at time it can be a singular fault, but a lot of the time you have to look to the common denominator, and recently Kirk has been that.  'Brain Fart' mistakes in critical situations seem to follow him, whether he's the sole contributor or not... he is a common contributor. 

 

I am just looking at any given game in a vacuum when assigning blame or credit, not the whole body of work.  I would do it whether we were talking about Kirk or Moses or even Sean when he was playing.  It's a strong pet peeve of mine when a single player is blamed for a loss or win based on any given play.  There's 22 men on the field for 60 minutes of football.  It all matters.

[RandyHolt]

2 minutes ago, Audible_Red40 said:

I'm not suggesting  there is no other QB other than Kirk.  What I am implying is that we'll be wasting time waiting for that diamond in the rough of a QB who was drafted in the 6th round like Brady.  If you don't believe Brady is Brady in large part because of Belichick, you're fooling yourself.

 

What QB doesn't need an OL, or a good coach? 

 

There is life after Kirk no matter what anyone thinks.

 

The grass ain't always greener sure, but it cannot get much more burnt than it is now - no playoff wins, big stage chokes, late game INTs, losing at home, him not even counter offering, our OL failings exposing his struggles under pressure.... life ain't all that great WITH him right now.

[NoCalMike]

8 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

What QB doesn't need an OL, or a good coach? 

 

There is life after Kirk no matter what anyone thinks.

 

The grass ain't always greener sure, but it cannot get much more burnt than it is now - no playoff wins, big stage chokes, late game INTs, losing at home, him not even counter offering, our OL failings exposing his struggles under pressure.... life ain't all that great WITH him right now.

 

Exactly.  Look at Russell Wilson recently.....the dude has regressed ever since he was tasked with picking up the slack once other areas of the team weren't quite as dominant.  For everyone who thinks Dak Prescott is on his way to becoming some kind of superstar, I'd wait on that for awhile.  In the NFC East right now, I'd say Wentz shows the most upside for turning into a franchise QB, but even he is still young & raw, it's hard to tell for sure. 

 

A dominant O-line, or run game, or defense is going to help every single QB regardless of how good or average they are.  Look at Alex Smith for the first almost-decade of his career compared to his final year in SF and KC years.  

 

No one is suggesting Cousins wouldn't be better if the overall team was better, however that doesn't change the fact of the mistakes, metal errors, and bad throws he makes when the plays are right there to be made.  It also matters when he and his agent are likely looking for a deal that will make him the highest paid QB in the league. 

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'm not sure where you are getting YOUR information from but Kirk Cousins is not signing a modest contract in Washington.  Google  "Supply and Demand", then get back to me.  There are 32 teams in the NFL and half of them do not have a QB as good as Cousins.  So you need to understand that Kirk Cousins is not signing a modest contract in Washington. 

 

You also need to understand the lack of viable  QB options around the league before calling others stupid.  If there are so many options out there then please explain why teams recently started seasons with Brock Osweild, Josh McCowan, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and something called Cody Kessler as their opening day starters. 

 

So please tell me what viable options you see at QB for us that are out there. 

 

 

 

First of all my bad - wasn't trying to call you stupid. I was trying to call you disingenuous. 

 

Bradford/ Bridgwater, Brees, maybe Garappalo but thats a stretch. Then you have a crop of rookies. And you never know what happens with Alex Smith who would be my choice personally. And then you always have trades. There are multiple options to acquire talent. And thats next year. We will have a totally different set of dudes the nest year. 

 

My overall point is we HAVE to add talent to the run game, oline and defense. And we aint tied to Kirk. If he has to be sacrificed for the team to get better then we shouldn't be afraid to do that. We will only have to do that if he makes us.

 

Honestly though I have no intention to continue this conversation further. Lets just say I want to move on from Kirk and you think thats a bad idea. Cool. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks anyway. 

 

BTW look where Kirk rates currently among other QBs. Not hard to say there are multiple better than him currently. You are only as good as your last performance. 

9 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

A dominant O-line, or run game, or defense is going to help every single QB regardless of how good or average they are.  Look at Alex Smith for the first almost-decade of his career compared to his final year in SF and KC years.  

 

No one is suggesting Cousins wouldn't be better if the overall team was better, however that doesn't change the fact of the mistakes, metal errors, and bad throws he makes when the plays are right there to be made.  It also matters when he and his agent are likely looking for a deal that will make him the highest paid QB in the league. 

 

This is literally all im trying to say. Add to that - we dont have to wait for Kirk to fail for us to have a plan B. Kirk SHOULD be plan A. And he is. But if it doesnt work out and we cant keep him because he wants to break all the banks ever then we have to do something else. 

[Llevron]

Edit: Double post. 

[RandyHolt]

It may come down to this. If you pay your QB top dollar in the no cheating cap era, he better be able to carry the team without the normal tools on offense us arm chair GMs covet, starting with that elite well compensated bookend LT. Elite WRs and backs.  He will be running for his life (like Wilson of late it seems) so he better be damn good under heavy pressure and be able to get the most of out of a bunch of JAGs.

 

I think the expectation bar of QBs has been not been adjusted to the modern day ultra aggressive defense. When every teams search for a great QB fails, maybe what is being asked of that QB is simply not realistic. But the search goes on, for a guy that no longer exists.  We were spoiled by QB play in the non blitz era, and also spoiled by the few true greats in the modern era.

 

We are also in the Fletcher Cox era. What QB can survive a full on direct hit from that guy. What QB will even take a full on hit from him, to complete a pass. It's not worth the risk.

 

That is life in the NFL year 2017 - survival of the fittest, not the greatest. Any true great can be squashed like a bug in one play. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

10 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

First of all my bad - wasn't trying to call you stupid. I was trying to call you disingenuous. 

 

Bradford/ Bridgwater, Brees, maybe Garappalo but thats a stretch. Then you have a crop of rookies. And you never know what happens with Alex Smith who would be my choice personally. And then you always have trades. There are multiple options to acquire talent. And thats next year. We will have a totally different set of dudes the nest year. 

 

My overall point is we HAVE to add talent to the run game, oline and defense. And we aint tied to Kirk. If he has to be sacrificed for the team to get better then we shouldn't be afraid to do that. We will only have to do that if he makes us.

 

Honestly though I have no intention to continue this conversation further. Lets just say I want to move on from Kirk and you think thats a bad idea. Cool. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks anyway. 

 

BTW look where Kirk rates currently among other QBs. Not hard to say there are multiple better than him currently. You are only as good as your last performance. 

 

Thanks for the civil reply, it was about to go south and I'm glad we can be cool here.  Next I totally agree, we need huge improvements all over the place. And as the leader of the "team with the top QB wins" I understand just how limited a team with a Cousins, a Daulton, an Alex Smith, is.  Time and time again the team with the better QB wins in January.  So  I'm not in love with Kirk Cousins, I see the same thing others see.  I just don't see a viable Plan B.   I still don't see a viable Plan B.

 

 

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Thanks for the civil reply, it was about to go south and I'm glad we can be cool here.  Next I totally agree, we need huge improvements all over the place. And as the leader of the "team with the top QB wins" I understand just how limited a team with a Cousins, a Daulton, an Alex Smith, are.  I'm not in love with Kirk Cousins, I see the same thing others see.  I just don't see a viable Plan B.   I still don't see a viable Plan B.

 

 

 

Yea im a smart ass with my words but I really dont mean anything by it! I feel you though. We disagree, but I feel you. 

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

Why did NE draft Brady.... why did we draft Sudsie...It's the GMs drafting late round QBs, not us fans.  So there is nothing wrong with fans suggesting trying what GMs do anyways. You'll never hit a home run if you don't swing for the fences once in a while.

 

Do people really think there is no possible QB for us other than Kirk? I see young QBs taking over the league.  Did Wentz not look good to anyone. Does Dak Suck. Is Goff a write off. Carr a car crash, Is Kizer a bust at 21? Mariota, Wilson. Heck even Kap and 3 got their teams to the playoffs. Some argue Eli is horrible, wait he has 2 rings.

 

The situation is not helpless.

No no no, we can't draft anyone late, nobody good ever comes from there. I mean, look at 2012. We drafted.... OH, what's his name... You know, the guy who's been up and down? Karth? Nah. Kurt. Kurt Cobain. That's it. Total trash, anything outside of the 1st round is doomed to failure.

 

Oh, and you know why else any other QB after Cousins will fail? John Beck.

 

Don't ask questions.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 I'm not in love with Kirk Cousins, I see the same thing others see.  I just don't see a viable Plan B.   I still don't see a viable Plan B.

This is where I've been all along.  I've had to add the caveat of "I'm not as high on Cousins as some here..." to a number of posts over the offseason.  With that said, I also give credence to the fact that we're a flawed team that can't run the ball nor play a lick of defense, so it's been harder for me to rip him.  Sometimes it feels like our fans only watch Redskins games every week.  I watch pretty much everyone not named Brady or Rodgers make a lot of the same mistakes that Cousins does.  I've watched fanbases throw dirt on the careers of many QB's that eventually get it together.  Matt Ryan most recently comes to mind.  I say all that to say this, I'd hate to give up on Kirk and start from square one all over again.  I really don't trust the likes of the current FO.  Our only prayer is that Gruden and Cousins somehow take that next step.  Perhaps they won't, its certainly possible.  I just don't have the patience to watch another rebuild built by the likes of Bruce and Doug Williams.