Skinsinparadise Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said: In my view Snyder has a number of hand puppets, Bruce is merely that latest. For a couple of million a year I'd take the gig and all the public that goes along with it also. I just don't believe Bruce can do much more than order pizza for the office without Snyder's approval. Sure Allen is the guy talking to Kirk's agent but Bruce is running Snyder's play. It's up to Snyder to decide to pay Cousins and I don't think it is going to happen. Could be so. A. Is Bruce the issue? B. Danny? C. Or a little bit of both? I think C. Beat reporters have expressed that Bruce is a strong personality in his own right and has a ton of pull especially when it comes to the purse strings of the FO. Tough for me to imagine Bruce is just carrying Danny's water -- especially when Scot's camp already called Bruce specifically out for being against signing Kirk during the 2015 season. It also fits Bruce's profile of being a tough negotiator. As one agent said to ESPN during FA - the Redskins in FA seem to be about getting a "good deal" first foremost. Danny on the other hand arguably has had the opposite reputation where he's doled out big contracts and overpaid pre-Bruce. Bruce has his faults but he's done IMO a good job in reigning in Danny on contracts. Tough for me to buy that Bruce on this contract specifically backs off his modus operandi and lets Danny take the reigns and tell him what to do. Having said that, Danny is the owner so if he wants to get something done, he can do it. It's plausible to me that Danny has been an obstacle. I guess where we disagree is IMO it totally fits Bruce's profile even more as to the issues relating to it not getting done thus far. Right down to me recalling a beat guy on the radio in the summer of 2015 saying how Bruce is a big Colt guy. And now we just happen to hear from beat and national guys about how some people in the FO love Colt and don't think it will be that much of a drop off from Kirk if this doesn't get done. The one thing that I hope saves the day is Jay. Among all the pessimism spread about the possibilities of a deal getting done, one thing I've heard (Mike Jones doubled down on this again next week) is that Jay is pounding the table for them to get a deal done. I still think they get this done right before the deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 It would be unfathomable to me that we would let a qb go, that after just his third season as our starter would only be behind Joe, Sonny and Sammy in terms of franchise passing yards... ain't gonna happen....Kirk will get signed...not even sweating it anymore...done deal...HTTR!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Here's what I think happened. And we have to go back to pre-season 2015 to figure it out: 1. Early off-season 2015: Dan and Bruce are both still "all-in" on Griffin because they used 3 #1's and a #2 to get him, and he had an incredible rookie season, just 2 years prior. They pick up the option because they really believe that Griffin will turn things around. There is really no thought about Kirk as a starter at this point. 2. Mid-off-season 2015. Griffin STILL can't run Gruden's offense. The change here is that GMSM is now in the house, and he also sees that Griffin is struggling with basic concepts. An informal and un-announced QB competition ensues. 3. Training Camp 2015. It's clear that Griffin can't run Gruden's offense. GMSM knows it, Jay knows it. They go to the guy who can run it in Kirk. Dan and Bruce are absolutely crushed that the massive investment that they made in Griffin appears to be a mistake. We know that Dan was close to Griffin, and I'm pretty sure that he would have taken this news pretty hard. I do not think that he would take it out on Kirk. But i could see that they would be very disappointed that Griffin didn't work out. 4. The 2015 season ends. Kirk has set records, but has only 1 year of starting experience, and the QB market is wonky. Bruce specifically is loath to pay Cousins a top-5 long term contract on 1 year of results, which did include a few dud games. They try to get a "good deal" but "team Kirk" knows that they aren't going to let him walk, so if they don't get to a deal, the worst case scenario is the Franchise Tag. Which is what happens, and Kirk now is negotiating off of a top-5 contract base. This is where the error occured. 5. Kirk plays well in 2016. Everybody now wants him back. But Kirk has now been playing on a Top-5 player salary (without being a top 5 player), and so Kirk's team wants to negotiate with that as the base. Dan and Bruce BOTH want him around, but want a contract in alignment with his value. The problem is, in order to keep him from hitting the market, they had to franchise-tag him again. Just adding to his leverage. So, I think it's possible that neither Dan nor Bruce was really "the problem." The issue is that they couldn't come to an agreement on a contract before the 2016 season and had to tag him. I would have suggested that they do absolutely everything possible to sign him then. They probably could have gotten a 5 year deal with $18-19/year average, 2-3 years guaranteed. Essentially the Osseweiler deal for longer. But they didn't want to commit that type of money then, so they ended up in a crap negotiating position, and it's going to cost them a ton of money now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: So, I think it's possible that neither Dan nor Bruce was really "the problem." The issue is that they couldn't come to an agreement on a contract before the 2016 season and had to tag him. I would have suggested that they do absolutely everything possible to sign him then. They probably could have gotten a 5 year deal with $18-19/year average, 2-3 years guaranteed. Essentially the Osseweiler deal for longer. But they didn't want to commit that type of money then, so they ended up in a crap negotiating position, and it's going to cost them a ton of money now. I don't disagree with much here, but also think we're being a bit too easy on the Redskins for the last part. The bold part of your post above is where they failed. At some point, you have to slightly overpay at the time to avoid majorly overpaying down the road. We are currently down the road and about to have to majorly overpay (when you count the money we have paid plus the contract we'll have to offer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said: I just don't believe Bruce can do much more than order pizza for the office without Snyder's approval. There's really no evidence of this, other than people being inclined to believe their worst fears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 It sounds like Derrick Carr is closing in on a new deal that could set the market for what Cousins' camp wants.... $25MM++ per year avg contract value. $80+ million Guaranteed. $125MM over 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, illone said: It sounds like Derrick Carr is closing in on a new deal that could set the market for what Cousins' camp wants.... $25MM++ per year avg contract value. $80+ million Guaranteed. $125MM over 5 years. So, in some ways, maybe this is good. Maybe it'll take the Redskins seeing someone else pay it to feel comfortable doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I don't understand why the article on the potential Derrick Carr contract presumes that Cousins deserves more than Carr. I would trade the higher yards that Cousins made for Carr's greater TDs and fewer INTs. Carr has made the pro-bowl twice and was suggested as league MVP. The thing that worries me the most about Cousins is that more than one GM have said that he's reached his potential. This is the best he's going to be. Good enough to win as a starter. But not great enough to put the team on his back on a consistent basis. If that's true then the Skins need a strong supporting cast to ensure that he has the tools to be successful. If the contract makes it impossible to field a complete offense or defense then they have to let him go. What good does it do to lock up Cousins with a long-term contract if the Skins are then locked into 9-7 territory for the life of the contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffmark1 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: So, in some ways, maybe this is good. Maybe it'll take the Redskins seeing someone else pay it to feel comfortable doing it? Especially if it isn't cap percentage based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I was under the impression Carr would get a marginally better deal than Cousins. Not sure the context on Cousins getting more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarpon75 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 4 hours ago, PlayAction said: I don't understand why the article on the potential Derrick Carr contract presumes that Cousins deserves more than Carr. I would trade the higher yards that Cousins made for Carr's greater TDs and fewer INTs. Carr has made the pro-bowl twice and was suggested as league MVP. The thing that worries me the most about Cousins is that more than one GM have said that he's reached his potential. This is the best he's going to be. Good enough to win as a starter. But not great enough to put the team on his back on a consistent basis. If that's true then the Skins need a strong supporting cast to ensure that he has the tools to be successful. If the contract makes it impossible to field a complete offense or defense then they have to let him go. What good does it do to lock up Cousins with a long-term contract if the Skins are then locked into 9-7 territory for the life of the contract? I am a big Cousins fan but have to agree with you for the most part. I don't believe that he should get better compensation than Carr whom is nearly three years younger,if I am not mistaken.DC has more upside long term.My thought is Kirk should come in slightly less annually and at least 20 mill. less guaranteed money over a comprable term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Tarpon75 said: I am a big Cousins fan but have to agree with you for the most part. I don't believe that he should get better compensation than Carr whom is nearly three years younger,if I am not mistaken.DC has more upside long term.My thought is Kirk should come in slightly less annually and at least 20 mill. less guaranteed money over a comprable term. It may turn out that Carr makes more than Cousins, but you need to factor in that Carr is slated to make under $1M (not guaranteed) this year and, unlike Cousins, hasn't been franchised yet. So if the Raiders were short sighted, they could tie up Carr for the next two years for around $23M. That weighs into the negotiation - the difference for Carr if he signs an LTD this season is huge. Cousins, on the other hand, is slated to make $24M guaranteed this year and at least $28M next year if the Skins don't release him. So it's very possible that Cousins will get a bigger contract than Carr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 10 hours ago, PlayAction said: I don't understand why the article on the potential Derrick Carr contract presumes that Cousins deserves more than Carr. I would trade the higher yards that Cousins made for Carr's greater TDs and fewer INTs. Carr has made the pro-bowl twice and was suggested as league MVP. The thing that worries me the most about Cousins is that more than one GM have said that he's reached his potential. This is the best he's going to be. Good enough to win as a starter. But not great enough to put the team on his back on a consistent basis. If that's true then the Skins need a strong supporting cast to ensure that he has the tools to be successful. If the contract makes it impossible to field a complete offense or defense then they have to let him go. What good does it do to lock up Cousins with a long-term contract if the Skins are then locked into 9-7 territory for the life of the contract? I dislike this oversimplification of football to QBs magically making teams good, the rest of the team doesn't matter. It's bull****. Bad teams with good QBs produce mediocre results. That's the Redskins last year. Also the saints, chargers, and panthers. Good teams with good QBs do much better. The team matters. Put Kirk on the Texans and he's cruising to double digit wins and playoffs. Put him on the Saints and he's not. The Redskins weren't a good team, at least not good enough to win in a very good division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmills67 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I've got an idea Just pay Cousin's NOW HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 3 hours ago, markmills67 said: I've got an idea Just pay Cousin's NOW HTTR Because Kirk's agent would never let him sign most any offer right now. Why would he. They know they will get the Redskins best offer on July 15th. The Redskins know they have no incentive to sign anything any sooner so they will not make there real offer until then. Deadlines make deals happen. The league set the date at July 15th. There is absolutely no incentive for either side to do anything sooner. I am not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 16 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said: There's really no evidence of this, other than people being inclined to believe their worst fears Evidence? We have had 20 years of men with titles of GM or Presidents of the Redskins presenting themselves as having authority we later learned they didn't really exercise. They have served as shields for Snyder and Snyder disposed of them when the public learned to see through it. Judging by your comment and those by others Allen still is an effective shield since you believe Bruce Allen exercises authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onedrop Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/11/2017 at 3:07 PM, PartyPosse said: That is the most ridiculous insinuation i've ever read. Why the hell do I care how much he makes? With all due respect, you don't know me and if you did you would know that financial success means absolute squat to me. I'm annoyed that IMO Kirk has done little to be such a headache for the franchise. You, and many here, seem 100% convinced that this entire predicament is completely on the shoulders of the Redskins organization and that Kirk is just an innocent bystander in this whole debacle, but here's the thing, you can look it at as market value or whatnot but can you honestly tell me you couldn't get at least 75% production from a lesser QB at a fraction of the price? You telling me that Chase Daniels (just an example_ couldn't give you at least 50% of the production (13 TD/2500 yards) that Kirk did at 18 million dollars a year less? Obviously it's not so black and white but I don't see any teams winning SBs recently that did so by overpaying their QB PRIOR to winning. I get it it's a team game and really i'm not really going to get into the whole argument over the importance of a QB because i'm not naive enough to say it's not the most important position to have filled, however right now his antics aren't, at least to me, on par with what i would want or expect from the person leading my team onto the field every week. He's a stat hog that loves the spotlight when he's on top of the world but is a ghost when things aren't so rosy. Image and ego are everything. Which brings me back to your assertion that i give a damn about how much he makes. No sir, as I said before, if this were an uncapped league then shoot for the moon, Mr. Cousins. Make a trillion dollars and go buy an island. But, there is a cap and every time his feelings get hurt, his demands seem to go up which means in order to make him feel better the rest of the team has to suffer. Clearly this is a matter that's split amongst Redskins fans so i'm not going to tell you or anyone that your opinion of Kirk and the ongoing contract discussions is wrong. This is how I see things and whether or not you or anyone else choose to respect my personal observations is entirely up to you. stop the presses....this just in.....the pot has just made a last minute desperation call to the kettle....more as details become available. seriously, you claim not to care yet look at the effort you put in to justify your position on what another grown man makes....after a lifetime of preparation. my stance always was and still is WHO CARES. obviously your hurt, mad or biased about what the guy makes, should make, is going to make or simply who he is. it is painfully obvious. just admit it already and MOVE ON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, onedrop said: ..after a lifetime of preparation. my stance always was and still is WHO CARES. As Redskins fans on their message board, I think we all should care. Every dollar spent on Kirk is a dollar less to spend building a team around him. I get what Posse is saying. If in an uncapped league, he wouldn't care. He was pretty clear about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onedrop Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Just now, bowhunter said: As Redskins fans on their message board, I think we all should care. Every dollar spent on Kirk is a dollar less to spend building a team around him. I get what Posse is saying. If in an uncapped league, he wouldn't care. He was pretty clear about that. sure IF we didnt have, you know, professionals handling that kind of thing. capped, uncapped it DOESNT MATTER. but forget the money and go back and read the character insult regarding Kirk faking his demeanor. that is what caused my initial response. care to posit PP's defense on that one as well....or should we wait for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Here's what I think happened. And we have to go back to pre-season 2015 to figure it out: 1. Early off-season 2015: Dan and Bruce are both still "all-in" on Griffin because they used 3 #1's and a #2 to get him, and he had an incredible rookie season, just 2 years prior. They pick up the option because they really believe that Griffin will turn things around. There is really no thought about Kirk as a starter at this point. 2. Mid-off-season 2015. Griffin STILL can't run Gruden's offense. The change here is that GMSM is now in the house, and he also sees that Griffin is struggling with basic concepts. An informal and un-announced QB competition ensues. 3. Training Camp 2015. It's clear that Griffin can't run Gruden's offense. GMSM knows it, Jay knows it. They go to the guy who can run it in Kirk. Dan and Bruce are absolutely crushed that the massive investment that they made in Griffin appears to be a mistake. We know that Dan was close to Griffin, and I'm pretty sure that he would have taken this news pretty hard. I do not think that he would take it out on Kirk. But i could see that they would be very disappointed that Griffin didn't work out. 4. The 2015 season ends. Kirk has set records, but has only 1 year of starting experience, and the QB market is wonky. Bruce specifically is loath to pay Cousins a top-5 long term contract on 1 year of results, which did include a few dud games. They try to get a "good deal" but "team Kirk" knows that they aren't going to let him walk, so if they don't get to a deal, the worst case scenario is the Franchise Tag. Which is what happens, and Kirk now is negotiating off of a top-5 contract base. This is where the error occured. 5. Kirk plays well in 2016. Everybody now wants him back. But Kirk has now been playing on a Top-5 player salary (without being a top 5 player), and so Kirk's team wants to negotiate with that as the base. Dan and Bruce BOTH want him around, but want a contract in alignment with his value. The problem is, in order to keep him from hitting the market, they had to franchise-tag him again. Just adding to his leverage. So, I think it's possible that neither Dan nor Bruce was really "the problem." The issue is that they couldn't come to an agreement on a contract before the 2016 season and had to tag him. I would have suggested that they do absolutely everything possible to sign him then. They probably could have gotten a 5 year deal with $18-19/year average, 2-3 years guaranteed. Essentially the Osseweiler deal for longer. But they didn't want to commit that type of money then, so they ended up in a crap negotiating position, and it's going to cost them a ton of money now. I enjoyed your post but I remember things differently. I believe exercising the option for 16M was done on Scot's watch and I remember thinking the day it was announced that it was Scot way of telling Griffin to quickly start to produce in a WCO or else, a kiss of death. As for your thesis that Cousins isn't a top 5 QB I disagree and apparently the Skins do also since they gave Kirk a top 5 salary in 2016 and have agreed to provide Cousins a top 5 salary in 2017 as well. So naturally Kirk's agent is going to use Kirk's 24M 2017 salary as a base in his discussions with the team, after all if Kirk isn't worth 24M why did the team agree to pay 24M this year. Of course there is the top 5 results Cousins has produced on the field, is Kirk's agent suppose to ignore the results as well as the Top 5 salary Kirk as been paid for 2 seasons also in the discussions? Cousins will get a top deal from the Skins or his next employer in 2018 or 2019. If the Skins had any brains for running a successful franchise they would have agreed to a big contract after 2015 or immediately after 2016 but sadly Dan Snyder is a marketing guy who grinds old widows over long term ticket deals and lacks the grace to generously pay Cousins without generating drama and bad feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, onedrop said: sure IF we didnt have, you know, professionals handling that kind of thing. capped, uncapped it DOESNT MATTER. but forget the money and go back and read the character insult regarding Kirk faking his demeanor. that is what caused my initial response. care to posit PP's defense on that one as well....or should we wait for them? If you're on a tight schedule or something, I'd suggest not waiting. Internet arguing and bullying just isn't my thing. I don't see the point, nor do I think it contributes much to this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Well the press conference this morning revealed what the issues are behind the Cousins talks, and why our offers have been so low. The cap guy, essentially the accountant has been handling all of the talks. Essentially one great rule in business is always have the numbers guy involved, but never let them run the show. It turns into "save here, save there", and you save yourself right out of actually running a great business. My hope is that they havent let him run everything, but instead have told him "We are willing to pay up to $24 mill per for Cousins, but try and save anything you can until the week before the deadline." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddub52 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I'm sure Doug Williams will get the deal done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek1973 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 20 hours ago, illone said: It sounds like Derrick Carr is closing in on a new deal that could set the market for what Cousins' camp wants.... $25MM++ per year avg contract value. $80+ million Guaranteed. $125MM over 5 years. And Cousins is totally worth this type of money, hell he has better stats than Carr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Kirks going to get his money fairly soon, probably what we've all been saying for months. The Front Office 'boys' will want to look good real soon. Look how clever we are........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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