RWJ Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Guaranteed money is the key. I believe you have to use Andrew Luck's contract as the model:  http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6439/andrew-luck  6/29/2016: Signed a six-year, $139.125 million contract. The deal contains $87 million guaranteed, including a $32 million signing bonus. 2017: $7 million (+ $6 million roster bonus), 2018: $12 million (+ $6 million roster bonus), 2019: $9.125 million (+ $12 million roster bonus), 2020: $11 million (+ $11 million roster bonus), 2021: $11 million (+ $10 million roster bonus), 2022: Free Agent  If you split the $87 mill over the life of the contract that's $14.5 mill a year so if you give KC a 5 year deal it would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $75 mill or $15 mill a year average on guaranteed money per year. That's key IMO. I am only using this as a template, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 47 minutes ago, RWJ said: Guaranteed money is the key. I believe you have to use Andrew Luck's contract as the model:  http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6439/andrew-luck  6/29/2016: Signed a six-year, $139.125 million contract. The deal contains $87 million guaranteed, including a $32 million signing bonus. 2017: $7 million (+ $6 million roster bonus), 2018: $12 million (+ $6 million roster bonus), 2019: $9.125 million (+ $12 million roster bonus), 2020: $11 million (+ $11 million roster bonus), 2021: $11 million (+ $10 million roster bonus), 2022: Free Agent  If you split the $87 mill over the life of the contract that's $14.5 mill a year so if you give KC a 5 year deal it would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $75 mill or $15 mill a year average on guaranteed money per year. That's key IMO. I am only using this as a template, so to speak.  You are correct that guaranteed money is the key. I do also agree that Kirk's contact ultimately will look a lot like Andrew Luck's (and have said so since the end of the season).  However, what I think you may be missing is that in Andrew luck's contract, those roster bonuses are only guaranteed if he is on the team. Only $47M was fully guaranteed at the time of signing. That number went up $25M on the 5th day of the 2017 NFL year. This is significant because the team could release him and the rest of the guarantees are no longer guaranteed. The dead cap would only be the pro-rated signing bonus plus a small amount of unpaid guarantees. Dead cap starting in 2018:  2018 - $22.2M --> Prorated signing bonus 3*$6.4M or $19.2M + remaining guarantee $3M. 2019 - $12.8M prorated signing bonus 2*$6.4M 2020 - $6.4M prorated signing bonus  The approach is to protect the player against injury but give the team flexibility if the player's performance goes bad.  Granted, the expectation is that the player will be on the team. But from a players perspective there are no guarantees except actual guarantees. So what we don't know is the breakdown of the Redskins offer. If they were offering a total of $40M in guarantees - including roster bonuses or injury guarantees, this is very low. If it was $40M fully guaranteed with additional injury guarantees - or even without - that's a reasonable starting point for this size of a negotiation. It's unlikely we will ever know.  I do like the idea of Bruce being frugal and then Danny coming in to save the day. It makes sure the team is responsible in terms of CAP and salaries in general, but then has the apparatus to back off that with the boss stepping in on the more important deals. It also allows Dan to look like the hero which helps Bruce keep his job "Great job Dan. I just couldn't pull it off. You are a great negotiator!" When all the time he was thinking, well if they blink we get him cheaper but I don't have to back down because I know Dan will not let it Kirk go. Team is covered either way. He could not do that with a more passive owner. He would have to take less of a hard line.  While it may infuriate some fans, it's pretty smart if you ask me. It's purely business.  This entire theory gets shot to hell if they don't get him signed by July 15th. Having said that, before this revelation that Dan was getting more involved, I was already at about 80% it gets done. Now I am close to 100% certain. Notice I said close to. There are no guarantees - see what I did there!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 IMO, in addition to the guarantee, this is what Cousins and his agent are truly after - making his per year contract value escalate at the same percentage that the cap escalates - and is the probable hold-up in negotiations... because no team in their right mind would want to be the first one to do this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I wonder if that's true. If it's the case, Kirk is really attempting to use all of his leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbit Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tay said: I wonder if that's true. If it's the case, Kirk is really attempting to use all of his leverage. It sounds very plausible, but if the deadline doesn't soften that stance...we let the tag ride and watch him ride off into the sunset. Hes a very smart qb, hes good, but we want the cap increase to ease the burden down the road. He isn't worthy of a groundbreaker deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJ Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Front office and ownership can make it happen and should make it happen. Even if it's a 3 year deal with the issues stated above with the CBA we can have KC under contract until then. We have Schaffer who's one of the best capologist in the business.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I like the idea of keeping Kirk around long term, but signing him to that kind of deal, especially if he's seeking 14.5% of the cap (that's the number most QB contract have as AAV as percent of 1st year cap number) put's us at too much of a competitive disadvantage. I'd let him walk in that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo'sRangers Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, Tay said: I like the idea of keeping Kirk around long term, but signing him to that kind of deal, especially if he's seeking 14.5% of the cap (that's the number most QB contract have as AAV as percent of 1st year cap number) put's us at too much of a competitive disadvantage. I'd let him walk in that scenario. It's the reason the Patriot have such a competitive advantage & can keep, and sign, whomever they deem worthy. It's an aberration and it sucks for most other teams. Â Chew on this article for a bit; Brady counts 1 million against their cap this year. Â Sigh....how lucky can one team be....grrrrrrrr. Â HTTR Â http://nesn.com/2016/03/tom-bradys-new-contract-is-one-of-the-biggest-bargains-in-sports/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Once again, all this talk of disrespect and wanting what's best for the team and also what's fair for him is BS. Kirk is only in it for the money. IF he's doing it to bleed the team because he feels disrespected then he's essentially purposely trying to cripple the team out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbit Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 26 minutes ago, PartyPosse said: Once again, all this talk of disrespect and wanting what's best for the team and also what's fair for him is BS. Kirk is only in it for the money. IF he's doing it to bleed the team because he feels disrespected then he's essentially purposely trying to cripple the team out of spite. Hes just riding shotgun with his agent at the wheel. There is no vendetta...Kirk just needs to see the reality that he isn't getting that groundbreaking deal even if he hits FA. He has a good thing beginning here in Washington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Riggo'sRangers said: It's the reason the Patriot have such a competitive advantage & can keep, and sign, whomever they deem worthy. It's an aberration and it sucks for most other teams. Â Chew on this article for a bit; Brady counts 1 million against their cap this year. Â Sigh....how lucky can one team be....grrrrrrrr. Â HTTR Â http://nesn.com/2016/03/tom-bradys-new-contract-is-one-of-the-biggest-bargains-in-sports/ So maybe the key is to get Kirks wife earning $50 mill/yr+ C'mon Danny, get it done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Gibbit said: Hes just riding shotgun with his agent at the wheel. There is no vendetta...Kirk just needs to see the reality that he isn't getting that groundbreaking deal even if he hits FA. He has a good thing beginning here in Washington I'm just annoyed that he goes out of his way to put on this Good Guy "Aw Shucks" Christian mentality but in reality he's no different than the rest of the greedy players. It's like he wants to be perceived as a "victim" in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, PartyPosse said: I'm just annoyed that he goes out of his way to put on this Good Guy "Aw Shucks" Christian mentality but in reality he's no different than the rest of the greedy players. It's like he wants to be perceived as a "victim" in all of this.  You gotta stop looking at it like this. He's an employee trying to get paid market value just like you or I, for himself and his family. Just because you are in a different, lower tax bracket doesn't make it fair to say "well once you're making above X million what's the difference, be a team player". That's bull**** and it's hypocritical unless you're willing to do that for your company. If you're not (hint: no one is) then drop this line of criticism. And I'm not even going to get into the religion thing. And frankly neither should you--it has nothing to do with wanting to be paid what he's worth.  Think about the fact that because you're a fan, instead of seeing it from the POV of the employee, you're siding with a multi-billion dollar tax-exempt corporation.  Contract negotiations/disputes are basically the only time you ever see people side with the billionaires over the employees. And it's because fandom makes people feel entitled. It's crazy. The dude is going to have a short career, in the grand scheme of his life. He should squeeze out every penny that he can, for his family, before his primary earning window slams shut. Anyone without bias would say this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmills67 Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 35 days and counting. Â HTTRÂ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffmark1 Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Make him highest paid qb: yes pay him an escalating cap percentage: no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 17 hours ago, Tay said: I wonder if that's true. If it's the case, Kirk is really attempting to use all of his leverage. I don't know Kirk Cousins, but this could be something he's doing for the players that come after him more than he's doing it for himself. At some point, will he really know the difference between a few million dollars? But, if he can establish a precedent that allows players to negotiate their salaries escalating in proportion to the cap, that's a pretty big deal on a macro level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clskinsfan Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 18 hours ago, Tay said: I wonder if that's true. If it's the case, Kirk is really attempting to use all of his leverage. If those tweets are true than Kirk is gone. Like the previous poster said no team is going to do this. The biggest benefit to the team of signing a long term deal is to free up future cap space when the cap escalates. If this is true I hope they let him walk in all honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 If players do start negotiating as a % of the cap, wouldnt the league then just collude to keep the cap from going up much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said: If players do start negotiating as a % of the cap, wouldnt the league then just collude to keep the cap from going up much?  Unless they want to collude to make themselves less money, that's not going to happen.  It's part of the CBA that the total cap has to rise in relation to the amount league revenues rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 13 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said: Contract negotiations/disputes are basically the only time you ever see people side with the billionaires over the employees. And it's because fandom makes people feel entitled. It's crazy. The dude is going to have a short career, in the grand scheme of his life. He should squeeze out every penny that he can, for his family, before his primary earning window slams shut. Anyone without bias would say this. I'm not siding with anyone over this matter and whether or not he should be paid among the upper echelon of his position should be based upon whether or not he's proven himself to be as such, which, in my mind, he hasn't (Don't give me the yards crap). The idea of paying above market value based upon potential more than results is team crippling IMO because right now if we sign him to the contract he's looking for, we need him to consistently exceed the production we've seen from him throughout his entire NFL tenure just for it to be worthwhile for the team and there is ZERO guarantee that will happen and we've been given no signs that Kirk hasn't reached his full potential. I absolutely loathe just the idea of signing the richest contract in the history of the sport to someone who hasn't earned it yet and is of no guarantee that he will. He's never acted like a leader on the field nor off and in my min is undeserving of even the opportunity to hold this franchise hostage because he hasn't gotten what he wants whether via dollars or compliments.  If you want to look at it in terms of he's looking to take advantage of the market and max out his value, fine. He's certainly entitled to do it and if this were a sport where there wasn't a cap on team spending I would tell him to shoot for the moon. However, as far as I can see, what he makes affects how the rest of the pie is distributed among the other players. Right now Kirk is demanding compensation based on both future performance increase and future cap increases. He's not in any way interested in helping the team win now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 You've now called him greedy, un-Christian, not a leader on or off the field, accused him of acting like a victim and not being interested in winning, and holding the franchise hostage--when we are in fact using the exclusive franchise tag on him for the second season in a row, utilizing our league-mandated ability to actually hold him hostage and keep him away from FA, which would immediately set his value and make you look foolish.  All these petulant feelings over a contract. Because you want a person to take less money to do their job, than they're worth in the job market. Think about how ridiculous that is. You either don't understand supply/demand or don't want to. Either way I'm done with this conversation, you're in hysterics. And also ignorant of how sports contracts work, if you think Kirk needs to produce at an impossibly higher level to be worth the contract he's earned. It'll be a top-level contract until the next wave of QB contracts are signed, and then it'll be fine, just like almost every big NFL contract ever.  He's not holding anyone hostage (in fact you could argue just the opposite, despite his good-natured attitude towards the tags and the big $$ they've earned him)--in fact, our FO has continuously shot themselves in the foot at every opportunity, pushing back the decision to give him a long-term contract while he proved himself to the rest of the league more and more and became the type of guy worth the contract you are now apparently petrified of. It's kind of ironic. We've forced him to bet on himself multiple times, as we struggled to make a decision on him despite having the most info in the NFL, and his bets paid off. Now he wants simply what he's worth and you're demonizing him for it. You should be directing this unjustified anger at the Redskins organization, if you can't get rational and lose the anger altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsPassion4Life Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 5, yrs, 120 mil...80 guaranteed in the first 3 years....40 mil signing bonus. If he doesn't want that, I'm not going to blame the organization....that's a fair offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 5 hours ago, clskinsfan said: If those tweets are true than Kirk is gone. Like the previous poster said no team is going to do this. If no team will do it, then he's not gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 The amount of projecting on this topic from both sides is unbelievable lol.  You don't have a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onedrop Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 19 hours ago, PartyPosse said: I'm just annoyed that he goes out of his way to put on this Good Guy "Aw Shucks" Christian mentality but in reality he's no different than the rest of the greedy players. It's like he wants to be perceived as a "victim" in all of this. sounds more like you are just annoyed that he is making millions in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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