ESPN.com: Kirk Cousins contract talks with Redskins on positive track

[Veryoldschool]

I'm not optimistic a deal gets done and if it doesn't happen I'll blame Snyder.  Not Bruce Allen, a hand puppet, I'm going to blame Snyder  because I've seen 20 years of stupid from him and 5 years of sensible from Kirk.  I blame Snyder already for failing to quickly wrap up a generous deal after the 205 or 2016 seasons.   After 20 years of observing Dan Snyder repells stability with magnetic polar force and certainty.  Kirk is Mr. Stable.  Cousins is even tempered, persistently positive, grounded and consistently good.  The very things that Snyder should want but sadly for us fans Snyder he runs from like a scalded dog.  Snyder prefers high risk, high drama train wrecks. So I think 7/15 comes and goes without a deal and the  Skins veer off the rails 7/15.  The  crash of 2018 will be the most spectular of Snyder's infamous career.

 

Yes, I have my Redskins fan broken heart protector shields fully deployed and fully charged already.  Even now I am already mentally crouching in anticipation of the brutal forehead slap I know I will administer myself when my fears are confirmed.  I sense the searing pain I will experience from the return of the ultimate black thought that I know will dominate my fan thoughts throughout the season, "why didn't I bail on this clown Snyder when he canned Marty?????"  I go there every time, every time when Snyder screw things up.  This is my last time.  If the Snyder let's Cousins, my last great hope, slip I'm done.  I hope I'm wrong but my fearful gut says Snyder is going to crush us again.

[Cooleyfan1993]

@Veryoldschool, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Snyder had JUST gotten wayyyyy more involved in the negotiations, meaning he was hardly involved after the season. My guess is maybe he finally figured that Bruce Allen isn't going to be able to wrap up this long term deal so he decided to try to get it done himself? 

 

Blaming Snyder would be wrong in my opinion, IF my thoughts are correct...

[wolfsire]

Sign him. And move on.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

@Veryoldschool, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Snyder had JUST gotten wayyyyy more involved in the negotiations, meaning he was hardly involved after the season. My guess is maybe he finally figured that Bruce Allen isn't going to be able to wrap up this long term deal so he decided to try to get it done himself? 

 

Blaming Snyder would be wrong in my opinion, IF my thoughts are correct...

 

I could see it both ways. On one hand, you're correct. Snyder could have been letting his team president oversee these negotiations and simply not meddling. On the other hand, this didn't just start when the season ended. It could easily be argued that if Snyder was ultimately going to ensure that this worked out, he should have inserted himself into the process a long time ago. Allen has already overseen the dismissal of our best personnel guy in a long time and is on the verge of losing a potential franchise QB (who is homegrown and was selected in the 4th round a few years ago).

 

Snyder is truly coming in at the 11th hour to try to salvage the situation. And, even if we are successful in signing Cousins long-term, it will be at a far less reasonable price than we could have last year. 

[RedskinsInFebruary]

16 hours ago, onedrop said:

sounds more like you are just annoyed that he is making millions in the first place.

 

I don't think so.  Giving up some personal wealth to make your team stronger is just as legitimate a personal position as grabbing all you can for yourself; in my opinion the former is wiser and more respectable, but that's just me. 

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to look back on your life thinking "I'm glad I accomplished those 2 superbowl wins" instead of "I'm glad I negotiated for that extra few million."  Either one could still benefit friends and family long term.

[zoony]

I get the feeling if a deal does happen it will be at the last minute

[theTruthTeller]

Did I miss something?  Just a few days ago, this thread was a sanguine oasis of positive expectations of an imminent deal.  What happened?

[Gibbit]

15 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Did I miss something?  Just a few days ago, this thread was a sanguine oasis of positive expectations of an imminent deal.  What happened?

There was a doom tweet.

 

depression sets in until somebody tweets something positive

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

I get the feeling if a deal does happen it will be at the last minute

 

Yep. Deadlines drive action.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

I'm not optimistic a deal gets done and if doesn't happen I'll blame Snyder because I've seen 20 years of stupid from him and 5 years of sensible from Kirk.  I blame Snyder already for failing to quickly wrap up a generous deal after the season.   Snyder repells stability with magnetic polar force and certainty.  Kirk is Mr. Stable.  Cousins is even tempered, persistently positive, grounded and consistently good.  The very things that Snyder should want but sadly for us fans he runs from like a scalded dog.  Snyder prefers high risk, high drama train wrecks.  I think the Skins veer off the rails 7/15 and the crash of 2018 will be the most spectular of Snyder's infamous career.

 

Yes, I have my Redskins fan broken heart protector shields fully deployed and fully charged already.  Even now I am already mentally crouching in anticipation of the brutal forehead slap I know I will administer myself when my fears are confirmed.  I sense the searing pain I will experience from the return of the ultimate black thought I know will dominate my fan thoughts thoroughout the season, "why didn't I bail this clown when he canned Marty?????"  I go there every time, every time when Snyder screw things up.  This is my last time.  If the Snyder let's Cousins, my last great hope, slip I'm done.  I hope I'm wrong but my fearful gut says Snyder is going to crush us again.

 

I think its a good summary of old school Danny.  He likes the buzz-excitement.  Chris Russell likes to say one of the problems Bruce/Danny have with Kirk is while he's good, he's not a box office guy.  He's not a big jersey seller-buzz type of guy.  Don't know if Russell is correct but it does seem plausible because it sounds very Brad Johnsonish. Jeff George with that rocket arm and brashness is a bit more exciting.  We've seen that movie. 

 

Having said that I'd think and hope Danny has gotten over that style.  Has old school Danny transitioned to new school Danny -- a more patient and non-intrusive version of him. I don't know.  We've heard rumblings of yes but some rumblings of no.   The next few weeks IMO is big time telling for the organization as for my faith in it.  If the upshot is some figurehead like Doug Williams is the GM or Bruce retains control, coupled with no contract for Kirk -- to me that equals to the team going back to being the mediocre to less than mediocre mess its been during Danny's reign with the slide starting anew in 2018.   If they bring on some real talent to help bolster the FO and Kirk is resigned -- to me it means good times ahead.

 

[PartyPosse]

20 hours ago, onedrop said:

sounds more like you are just annoyed that he is making millions in the first place.

 

That is the most ridiculous insinuation i've ever read. Why the hell do I care how much he makes? With all due respect, you don't know me and if you did you would know that financial success means absolute squat to me. 

 

I'm annoyed that IMO Kirk has done little to be such a headache for the franchise. You, and many here, seem 100% convinced that this entire predicament is completely on the shoulders of the Redskins organization and that Kirk is just an innocent bystander in this whole debacle, but here's the thing, you can look it at as market value or whatnot but can you honestly tell me you couldn't get at least 75% production from a lesser QB at a fraction of the price? You telling me that Chase Daniels (just an example_ couldn't give you at least 50% of the production (13 TD/2500 yards) that Kirk did at 18 million dollars a year less? Obviously it's not so black and white but I don't see any teams winning SBs recently that did so by overpaying their QB PRIOR to winning. I get it it's a team game and really i'm not really going to get into the whole argument over the importance of a QB because i'm not naive enough to say it's not the most important position to have filled, however right now his antics aren't, at least to me, on par with what i would want or expect from the person leading my team onto the field every week. He's a stat hog that loves the spotlight when he's on top of the world but is a ghost when things aren't so rosy. Image and ego are everything.

 

Which brings me back to your assertion that i give a damn about how much he makes. No sir, as I said before, if this were an uncapped league then shoot for the moon, Mr. Cousins. Make a trillion dollars and go buy an island. But, there is a cap and every time his feelings get hurt, his demands seem to go up which means in order to make him feel better the rest of the team has to suffer. 

 

Clearly this is a matter that's split amongst Redskins fans so i'm not going to tell you or anyone that your opinion of Kirk and the ongoing contract discussions is wrong. This is how I see things and whether or not you or anyone else choose to respect my personal observations is entirely up to you. 

[PartyPosse]

On 6/10/2017 at 11:37 AM, ConnSKINS26 said:

All these petulant feelings over a contract. Because you want a person to take less money to do their job, than they're worth in the job market.

IF it were just about him taking the money that he's worth then the contract would have been signed by now IMO. From what I assume the stalling points are a) he's trying to reset the market and B ) he's looking for the financial compensation that comes with the hopes that he would do his job well enough to justify the dollars and not based on what he has already done. To me, that's where the issue lies for both fans and the organization. What will Kirk's legacy be in 10 years? Has he reached the pinnacle of his talent or is he still growing? 

 

Unfortunately, like so many, you are unable to debate or consider anyone else's perspective on the matter without talking down to the other. Unfortunately that seems to be how things get discussed in this country now.  Don't give me this crap about "you don't know how this works and that works blah blah blah", there are far more teams hamstrung by bad contracts given out to QBs looking for "market value" than there are QBs that actually live up to their "market value" contracts. The top 5 highest paid QBs last year did not make the playoffs. Perhaps Kirk grows into the QB many see him as becoming, but ask yourself, if he's a top 5 paid QB for the next 5 years and his production never tops say 28-29 TDs, are you content with it?

 

 

[Conn]

49 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

IF it were just about him taking the money that he's worth then the contract would have been signed by now IMO.

 

We have not offered him the contract he's worth, so no. Not a single report that we have increased our offer to acceptable levels. Until we do offer that type of contract, and he does reject it, I won't beleive a whisper of this "he wants to change the game and take a % of the cap" BS. And you can damn well bet that the moment we offer a market value deal it will leak for PR reasons, so that the pressure is on Kirk to sign it and the blame is removed from the organization in the event a deal doesn't happen.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

ask yourself, if he's a top 5 paid QB for the next 5 years and his production never tops say 28-29 TDs, are you content with it?

 

And for the record? Honestly, if that's how it plays out, yes. I'm not agreeing with that being his ceiling but looking at it rationally, he gives us a chance every week and it's very difficult to find and lock up a QB who consistently throws for 30+ TD's every year.

[RWJ]

Just now, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

And for the record? Honestly, if that's how it plays out, yes. I'm not agreeing with that being his ceiling but looking at it rationally, he gives us a chance every week and it's very difficult to find and lock up a QB who consistently throws for 30+ TD's every year.

And who can stay healthy too.

[PartyPosse]

53 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

And for the record? Honestly, if that's how it plays out, yes. I'm not agreeing with that being his ceiling but looking at it rationally, he gives us a chance every week and it's very difficult to find and lock up a QB who consistently throws for 30+ TD's every year.

Ok. But i didn't say 30+. If you say it's very difficult to find someone who can consistently throw 30+ and if Kirk isn't one of those elite QBs even though he's being paid as such. Is it worth it? If I'm paying a QB elite money, I want more than someone who merely gives us a chance. I want someone who will win games for us we have no business winning. That's the difference between a very good QB and an elite one. 

 

Obviously no one has a crystal ball so what we're doing now is complete and 100% opinion on whether or not he's worth signing longterm for. You are on the side that feels he is whereas I do not. All we can do is agree to disagree and hope that regardless of what happens the team comes out ahead. 

[Conn]

30 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Ok. But i didn't say 30+.

 

I know. I said that even if he isn't that guy, good luck to you if you want to wait until we DO find that guy. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I know. I said that even if he isn't that guy, good luck to you if you want to wait until we DO find that guy. 

 

I agree.  It's a miserable journey as we all know to find that guy.   IMO Jason Campbell would be a case in point.  He's been demonized by some as a bust but I think that's simply about him not meeting expectations.  He's an OK QB -- mediocre so so.   Back in Norv Turner's days, John Friesz was so so.  Those guys IMO would represent the typical QB play during the Danny reign.   In raw money terms is it worth paying a good QB 5 times the money as a so so one?  Nope.   But in terms of winning is it worth it?  Heck yeah, IMO.  It's the difference between being a 4-6 win team and a 9-11 win team.  The difference between being a playoff team or at least always competing for the playoffs versus a team that's out of contention in November. 

 

And personally I think Kirk is better than good.  Statistically speaking he's easily a top 10 guy.   But even if I ran with the idea that he's just good -- it's worth IMO paying what it takes to avoid being irrelevant year after year and the doormat of the NFC East.

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim hits quite a bit in this article, I post some of the highlights below

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/31582/dan-snyders-involvement-in-contract-talks-important-for-kirk-cousins-redskins

 

So, really, the positive tone stems from Snyder’s involvement. And part of that goes back to the early days when Snyder was tight with Robert Griffin III, even going to him first in the locker room after Cousins replaced him for the Cleveland game. Those sort of things stick with a guy. When that same guy then expresses, over and over, his confidence and love? That sticks, too. Cousins recently told Redskins play-by-play host Larry Michael that Snyder "has done a great job this offseason communicating with me."....

 

Still, the contract offer matters a lot more and, according to multiple sources, there’s not a lot of movement there at this point. So you can make a case that, despite better vibes, not enough has changed. However, I also believe they needed to butter up Cousins a little bit before coming with another offer.

Now, if they follow that wooing period with a big-time contract, then there could be legitimate negotiations that take place before July 15. Without a strong offer, anything that preceded it becomes just talk. A good offer might not lead toward a deal before the deadline, but it at least would foster more good will.

 

...I’ll be curious how the arrival of Cousins’ first child impacts his desire to stick around or to stay close to family. There's a lot Cousins likes about this team; his wife is tight with other players' wives. Also, how does he like playing with this group of receivers and a new setup with Jay Gruden as play-caller and Matt Cavanaugh as offensive coordinator? If Cousins doesn’t sign by July 15, all of these will be factors to consider in any decision he makes. This is a quarterback-friendly offense, but so are others. Wink, wink.

 

The recent signs have been encouraging, but before the last month or two they were the opposite. This isn't just a case of "typical negotiations." Some who knew Cousins were convinced he was gone. Is there real recent momentum? Multiple people say it's just a continuation of what's taken place over the last two months. That's not bad, but it's still hard to say what it means. We’ll have a better feel for that at the end of the month when the deadline draws near. If talk is cheap, the next offer had better not be -- not if the Redskins truly want a deal.

[markmills67]

We need to get Cousin's signed to a LTD asap,  because if the Raiders sign Carr to one first it could mean an even bigger deal for Cousin's. 

 

HTTR 

[clskinsfan]

On 6/10/2017 at 2:37 PM, ConnSKINS26 said:

in fact, our FO has continuously shot themselves in the foot at every opportunity, pushing back the decision to give him a long-term contract while he proved himself to the rest of the league

 

I agree with most of your post other than this line. The team made a smart decision not to sign Cousins to a long term contract in 2015 IMO. There wasnt a team in the league that was going to give Kirk a big contract after 8 good games. The rest of his career up to that point was pedestrian at best. If not poor. Now has he earned a long term deal after his 2016 campaign. Yes. I think he has. But to say the team has pushed back at every turn to try NOT to sign Kirk is crazy. The team did what it had to do to protect the team and franchised him. And I still think Cousins is only a middle of the road starter in this league. But middle of the road players at that position get paid. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I agree with most of your post other than this line. The team made a smart decision not to sign Cousins to a long term contract in 2015 IMO. There wasnt a team in the league that was going to give Kirk a big contract after 8 good games. The rest of his career up to that point was pedestrian at best. If not poor. Now has he earned a long term deal after his 2016 campaign. Yes. I think he has. But to say the team has pushed back at every turn to try NOT to sign Kirk is crazy. The team did what it had to do to protect the team and franchised him. And I still think Cousins is only a middle of the road starter in this league. But middle of the road players at that position get paid. 

 

I have to nitpick. You can argue that the team made a defendable decision after 2015, but it's most certainly turned out to not be the "smart" decision not to sign Cousins. They'd have him on a much cheaper deal right now than they can get him for. So, by definition, it became the wrong choice. Again, I was OK with it at the time as well. But results are results and it would have been the smart decision to sign him. 

[goskins10]

10 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I have to nitpick. You can argue that the team made a defendable decision after 2015, but it's most certainly turned out to not be the "smart" decision not to sign Cousins. They'd have him on a much cheaper deal right now than they can get him for. So, by definition, it became the wrong choice. Again, I was OK with it at the time as well. But results are results and it would have been the smart decision to sign him. 

 

I will nit-pick right back --  lol 

 

The idea that it was a "wrong" decision or that they made a "mistake" is what is at issue here. The decision was to take the least risk option. The negative impact of signing him to a LTD and him not fulfilling that promise was and still is worse than not signing him and having to pay him more money now. The CAP continuous to go up. So what if they have to pay him a few $M more. In the end they were protecting the team from being in a contract with someone that could not deliver as best they could. They took the least risk option. It turned out that they will pay him more than could have before. That's still a better result than paying him a big contract and him not performing.

 

I know there will now be all the people that will say - there was no risk as there was no chance Kirk did not get better. Sorry, that's an emotional fans perspective, not a decision driven by logic and reason.

 

Now the fair statement might be that there are still no guarantees Kirk will produce - something his detractors keep sighting. But again it's all about risk. There is exponentially less risk that happens now with a full season and 9 gms of good performance as there was after just 9 gms of a season.

 

As long as they get this done by July 15th, for me it's all been done the way it should go for a player at this position, that was not able to be fully evaluated during his entire 4 yrs under his rookie contract. If they don't sign him and let him play under the tag in 2017, that will be for me the first real "mistake". And it will be a huge mistake on their part. This assumes Kirk's team is not asking for something totally ridiculous.

[theTruthTeller]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I agree with most of your post other than this line. The team made a smart decision not to sign Cousins to a long term contract in 2015 IMO. There wasnt a team in the league that was going to give Kirk a big contract after 8 good games. The rest of his career up to that point was pedestrian at best. If not poor. Now has he earned a long term deal after his 2016 campaign. Yes. I think he has. But to say the team has pushed back at every turn to try NOT to sign Kirk is crazy. The team did what it had to do to protect the team and franchised him. And I still think Cousins is only a middle of the road starter in this league. But middle of the road players at that position get paid. 

I don't totally disagree, but I do want to point out that having a four year try out should mean something to people whose job it is to evaluate players.  He had started 25 games through 2015 - only San Diego exceeds the Skins' ineptitude in evaluating QBs.  And the FO didn't protect the team from Kirk being bad - if their intent had been to protect the team, they would have made a serious attempt to acquire another quarterback to take over if Kirk was bad.  Instead, they created a situation where Kirk was destined to start in 2016 and 2017 whether he played good or bad (by the way, Colt's contract has an opt-out clause if he's the primary starter in 2016 or 2017, so they clearly weren't counting on him taking over as the starter).

 

The problem is simple. The Skins want to sign Kirk for what is he worth right now as a 10-15 type quarterback.  But each time they franchise him, they put Kirk in the position of asking for a contract that reflects his worth in the following year.  So Kirk is holding out for the contract he could get in 2018.  The solution isn't simple.  All the Skins can do is figure out a way to overpay him as little as possible.  Kirk will only get one shot at a big money LTD, whether it comes this year or next year.  I wouldn't be surprised to see him play out the tag.

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think its a good summary of old school Danny.  He likes the buzz-excitement.  Chris Russell likes to say one of the problems Bruce/Danny have with Kirk is while he's good, he's not a box office guy.  He's not a big jersey seller-buzz type of guy.  Don't know if Russell is correct but it does seem plausible because it sounds very Brad Johnsonish. Jeff George with that rocket arm and brashness is a bit more exciting.  We've seen that movie. 

 

Having said that I'd think and hope Danny has gotten over that style.  Has old school Danny transitioned to new school Danny -- a more patient and non-intrusive version of him. I don't know.  We've heard rumblings of yes but some rumblings of no.   The next few weeks IMO is big time telling for the organization as for my faith in it.  If the upshot is some figurehead like Doug Williams is the GM or Bruce retains control, coupled with no contract for Kirk -- to me that equals to the team going back to being the mediocre to less than mediocre mess its been during Danny's reign with the slide starting anew in 2018.   If they bring on some real talent to help bolster the FO and Kirk is resigned -- to me it means good times ahead.

 

 

In my view Snyder has a number of hand puppets, Bruce is merely that latest.  For a couple of million a year I'd take the gig and all the public that goes along with it also. I just don't believe Bruce can do much more than order pizza for the office without Snyder's approval.  Sure Allen is the guy talking to Kirk's agent but Bruce is running Snyder's play.  It's up to Snyder to decide to pay Cousins and I don't think it is going to happen.