Discussions on a heavily criticized OL

[ZRagone]

I want people to realize something here before ****ing about Scherff at guard.

 

If this happens, we're likely looking at an offensive line that includes:

 

4 players WE drafted

4 players taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft

4 players 27 years old or younger

 

Isn't this what we, as Redskin fans, have been screaming for over the past decade or so? For a young, internally grown, highly drafted offensive line? Yet when it looks like we're FINALLY going to get that...people are complaining because it's a 3rd rounder at RT and a 1st rounder at RG?

 

I mean....really? That's being ridiculous.

 

Understand as well, with Ribs learning center, that if he somehow surpasses Liechtensteiner by next year that we'll have our entire O-Line filled with home grown talent, all 3rd round or better picks, will the oldest of the bunch only being 28.

 

I'm ESTATIC that it looks like Moses is actually grabbing ahold of the RT spot. It was just a year ago that we had some crying that he was a "failed pick" because he couldn't beat out a late rounder in Compton or the much maligned Polumbus even though he was a 3rd rounder. Now he's fighting for a starting spot, and instead of being excited about a 3rd rounder developing into what we hoped we have media/fans (more media) lamenting that Scherff is somehow a failed pick because he's playing guard.

 

If all play was equal, I'd rather it be Scherff and our less expensive 24 year old as the two starters than Scherff and the more expensive 27 year old. If the former combo actually plays better than the latter combo, then it should be a no brainer...regardless of which person is in which position.

 

A large part of me figures this is more an experiment than an absolute thing with the Scherff/Moses combo....but if it's not, if this is what it turns out to be, I won't be lamenting a failed pick. I'll be celebrating two potentially successful picks and a young, home grown, talented o-line.

[Koolblue13]

I'm with you on this one. If Moses really is making them give him the job, that's some of the best news this off-season.

[Morrison J]

Sounds like Moses is really stepping up. Would love him to take the job. He's got the attributes to be a really solid player imo. 

 

Scherff's tape has always screamed guard to me. Said it the day we drafted him. All-Pro guard or slightly above average tackle. 

[Koolblue13]

Last year, when Moses and Long were drafted, the FO specifically said there was no expectations for them to play yet, but everyone got worked up any way.

[carex]

I want people to realize something here before ****ing about Scherff at guard.

 

If this happens, we're likely looking at an offensive line that includes:

 

4 players WE drafted

4 players taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft

4 players 27 years old or younger

 

I have to figure if Scherff played at G it would be Long not Lauvao that would hit the bench

[Jumbo]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rebuilding-o-line-takes-interesting-turn-redskins-205833736--nfl.html

(Hank Kurz Jr. (AP))

Rebuilding of O-line takes interesting turn for Redskins

 

<edit>

 

While many expected first-round draft choiceBrandon Scherff from Iowa to be the starting right tackle, the last two days have seen him lining up with the starters, but at right guard, with Morgan Moses alongside at right tackle spot.

 

The pair acquitted themselves fairly well Thursday in joint workouts against J.J. Watt and theHouston Texans.

 

<edit>

 

While sidelined, he watched practices and studied the playbook.

 

''I knew what I had to accomplish in the offseason and that, first, getting healthy, but being able to sit behind the scenes and look at the guys practice and kind of learn about the defense and the defensive rotations, and really buy into the playbook from the mental aspect, helped me out a lot,'' the 6-foot-6, 318-pounder said after practice Thursday.

 

''When I got back and I went off to train and stuff like that, all I really had to focus on was gaining that confidence in my foot.''

 

Left tackle Trent Williams has noticed a more mature Moses.

 

''It's just becoming a pro. It's his second year. The game is starting to slow down for him,'' Williams said. ''Every rookie is going to have those rookie lulls, but he recognized it, he went and worked hard on it, he studied his butt off and it's starting to pay off.''

 

<edit>

 

 

<more at link>

[Koolblue13]

Holy crap that just made me giggle and smile. That is huge!

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I have to figure if Scherff played at G it would be Long not Lauvao that would hit the bench

I'd like it if eventually Lauvao were benched or released, Long moved to C, and Arie Kouandijo took over at LG.

 

Trent - Kouandijo - Long - Sherff - Moses

 

6'5"        6'5"         6'5"        6'5"        6'6"

337 lbs   315 lbs    311 lbs   315 lbs   335 lbs

Age 27   Age 23    Age 24    Age 23   Age 24

[Alexa]

Good news about Moses. Hopefully he and the rookie can lock it down on the ride side for the next several years.

[bedlamVR]

I think one thing that is interesting it is mostly the local beat reporters that are making it a negative point about Scherff moving to RG as if that is an admission that the guy is already a bust . I don't know where Scherff will eventually end up but the Skins took him to upgrade the offensive line and it looks like he is probably going to do that for the next x years. 

 

Months ago I mentioned the football scenery is changing with the changes in the rookie salary cap. It used to be a young guys used to come into the NFL with huge salaries and huge expectations. Now for comparison Trent Williams in the last of the old types of contract signed his deal for a player taken 4th overall for $60 million. 4 years later Scherff taken 5th overall was signed for $21 million. A huge difference.

 

The smart teams are realising that in this new culture you can take the guy who adds most to the team rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by fitting a more talented player into a position that is not a huge need. That would have been the case with Leonard Williams who I think fitted the 4-3 better than the 3-4 and then would have been fighting for playing time on a retooled line. 

 

The Rams took Greg Robinson last season because they knew even if he did not end up being a LT he would make their team better . I think the Redskins did the same .  

 

It is the media that is a little slow to catch up with this.  

[RedskinsInFebruary]

The Redskins are desperately overdue for one of their recent OL picks to emerge.  Hopefully we finally hit on one with Moses. 

[RandyHolt]

I like that we ran a fake FG to Moses. Keep the game fun and reward the kid a bit too perhaps. Why the hell not.  I bet it was Callaghans idea.  I feel like the board could use a general discussion thread for the offense / play calling. 

 

Over the decades we rarely cough successfully run fakes in the RS, so I have long felt we should go ahead and show a bunch during summer, since we likely won't be running any in the season. Make the opposition game plan for it for the first few games if not more. I don't recall many fakes from us spanning decades now, and wonder if this is a new approach on the call to Moses. Maybe Belly did it to us a year ago lol. 

 

We run so few fakes, a "fake" to long time skins fans is Gibbs heavy jumbo 4th and short and going PAP to Warren and Didier. No one sold the run better than Gibbs could. 

 

Never forget the gate. 

[Larry]

We run so few fakes, a "fake" to long time skins fans is Gibbs heavy jumbo 4th and short and going PAP to Warren and Didier. No one sold the run better than Gibbs could.

Never forget the gate.

Now, me. When I think of the Skins getting tricky?

I figure that we give the ball to Morris so often, that I want a flea flicker.

[Dark Acre]

The Rams took Greg Robinson last season because they knew even if he did not end up being a LT he would make their team better . I think the Redskins did the same .  

 

It is the media that is a little slow to catch up with this.  

As are some fans.

[ZRagone]

Now, me. When I think of the Skins getting tricky?

I figure that we give the ball to Morris so often, that I want a flea flicker.

No flea flickers, not for this franchise, please.

[Laron Burgundy]

The smart teams are realising that in this new culture you can take the guy who adds most to the team rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by fitting a more talented player into a position that is not a huge need. That would have been the case with Leonard Williams who I think fitted the 4-3 better than the 3-4 and then would have been fighting for playing time on a retooled line. 

 

The Rams took Greg Robinson last season because they knew even if he did not end up being a LT he would make their team better . I think the Redskins did the same .  

 

It is the media that is a little slow to catch up with this.  

 

Williams will be playing in a hybrid defense, which is probably similar to what we'll be attempting to run here.  If anything he was REALLY good against the run, so he would have fit well in a traditional 3-4.

 

Robinson was also 2 years younger than Scherff when he started his career and ran an offense in college that doesn't resemble a pro offense at all.  He rarely had to pass protect in college.  He's now slotted as their left tackle, which I fully believe was their plan.  It's still to be seen if he plays well there though.

 

I think it's a cop out to use the rookie salary scale to say it's a smart pick to draft a guy at a less premier position.  Likewise, Williams didn't get a monster salary, and sure, he might have split reps with Hatcher in year 1, but Hatcher and most of his 9 mil salary cap hit would be off the books next year.  If Williams was the better player, you take him.

 

That being said, I hope Scherff balls out at guard.  I know a lot of people will be down on him year 1 if he struggles, but the move from left to right is tough for most players, and offensive linemen usually struggle their first year.  I 100% didn't like the pick, but he's a redskin now, so I'm hoping for the best.  I'd prefer if he was on the left side though as he doesn't have to relearn hand and feet movement, and left guards are more important, but if they later plan on moving him to RT then RG makes sense.

[bedlamVR]

You also should not discount what we did in free agency ,.. Francois, Paea, Knighton all good players an previous starters and in that prime part if their careers . Williams would be fighting for playing time with guys we figure will be around a while . Not saying Williams could not add something to the team because adding talent is a no brainer . But his impact projects to be less on the D compared to what Scherff does on the offensive line ...

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

Williams will be playing in a hybrid defense, which is probably similar to what we'll be attempting to run here.  If anything he was REALLY good against the run, so he would have fit well in a traditional 3-4.

 

Robinson was also 2 years younger than Scherff when he started his career and ran an offense in college that doesn't resemble a pro offense at all.  He rarely had to pass protect in college.  He's now slotted as their left tackle, which I fully believe was their plan.  It's still to be seen if he plays well there though.

 

I think it's a cop out to use the rookie salary scale to say it's a smart pick to draft a guy at a less premier position.  Likewise, Williams didn't get a monster salary, and sure, he might have split reps with Hatcher in year 1, but Hatcher and most of his 9 mil salary cap hit would be off the books next year.  If Williams was the better player, you take him.

 

That being said, I hope Scherff balls out at guard.  I know a lot of people will be down on him year 1 if he struggles, but the move from left to right is tough for most players, and offensive linemen usually struggle their first year.  I 100% didn't like the pick, but he's a redskin now, so I'm hoping for the best.  I'd prefer if he was on the left side though as he doesn't have to relearn hand and feet movement, and left guards are more important, but if they later plan on moving him to RT then RG makes sense.

 

Are LGs really that much more important than RGs though?  We saw Scherff going at Watt the past few days, and I believe that exemplifies the notion that coordinators these days are tired of being conventional.  Every defense is trying to be a "hybrid" of some sort.

 

What I'm about to say might not hold much weight to you or many others, but I believe it to be true...

 

I'm 5'11 and played the QB position for many years behind lineman that usually ranged from 6'2 to 6'6...  It was inevitable that every time I let one loose, I was going to take a shot from one of the DEs.  The thing is, once you pull the grass/dirt out of your face mask and see your boy 12 yards down the field holding the ball-- you no longer give a ****.

 

However, every time the interior pocket collapsed in front of me off the snap-- it was absolute chaos.  I threw ducks.  I threw picks.  I tried to run.  It was like being buried alive in Kill Bill 2.  Mario 3 quicksand comes to mind.

As football fans/spectators we are so obsessed with what we can see.  We watch from the sidelines and see the things that are happening closest to us.  We are obsessed with pass-rushing OLBs, OTs, CBs, and deep-threat WRs because they bring the Rick Flair and stats/fantasy points. Guys that play on the outside.

 

My theory remains that the good teams (teams that pick 16-32 every year) stay good because they aren't worried about the 'flashy' OT/WR/QB/DE... they instead draft the remaining G/C/ILB/S/NT who control the middle of the field.

 

Scherff playing guard as #5 pick is the product of an awesome GM and even more awesome OL coach who doesn't pay attention to the outside noise.  So stoked.

[Burgold]

Great post, Larrondon'tlikeugly.

 

Just wanted to add that outside of the QB thing, I want a line that starts winning the third and shorts and fourth and shorts. As much as I love Morris, I can't stand those sweeps on the goal lines. It gives the defense so much time to chase and makes it so much harder than just pounding it straight up the gut. 

 

I've seen Morris run with plenty of power and break lots of tackles. There's no reason why he shouldn't be more effective in goal line situations. Give him that stout line with a strong center!

[Warhead36]

In todays NFL, the LT being the only "premier" position on the OL is a myth. Defenses move players around all the time, you need good players all over your OL. I'd much rather Sherff play G and be dominant then play him at RT and have him only be slightly above average. An elite, perennial All Pro is worth a #5 pick at any position(except like K and P).

[Larry]

Observing that we're seeing Suh, Week 1. Our guards might be kinda important.

[Pedro]

Normally we are looking at the least worst option to fill the line with Trent.  This year our 1st round pick is looking as you would expect at RT (odd mistake, odd impact play, generally holding his own) but is being beaten out by Moses. 

 

Position being won on merit is not limited to RT.  Long has had a good camp at RG but Scherff is showing why he is so highly rated there too.  Shawn Lauvao has had a steady camp but Koundjio is also showing well with time left until the season opener.

 

Spencer Long took a couple of snaps at OC yesterday too.

 

Can't see 4 changes to the OL especially by game 1 but looking at the OL we could put out, if in doubt call a run and we'll win more than we lose.

 

Our position coaches look to be being productive, game time will tell the real story though.  Looking forward to it for more than fingers crossed reasoning

[Voice_of_Reason]

There is some teeth mashing that Scherff at Guard means that the the 'Skins wasted the #5 overall pick, because Guard isn't as big a need as tackle.

 

They've had their chance.  Allow me to retort.

 

That is the biggest bunch of stupid I've heard from a cast of misfits who are trying to force a story where there isn't one.  I've never quite understood why Guards and Centers weren't considered as important as the tackles.  They are closer to the QB, responsible for moving the largest members of the defense, and if they don't do their jobs, you give up the most important part of the field: The middle.

 

Screw it.  If Scherff is an all pro guard, and Moses turns into a good RT, you've upgraded the line by miles. And you're providing toughness right up the middle.  

 

That should allow the QBs not to have a DT in their face in .4 seconds.  This would be an improvement.  

 

I think that if Moses is truly playing well enough to be considered a starting RT, that is the biggest story of the entire off-season.  That allows Scherff to play Guard, and you've upgraded your two biggest weaknesses on the OL from last year with 2 draft picks.  That's huge.  That's what teams like the Ravens, Seahawks, and Patriots do.  That is very un-Redskin.  

 

The last piece of the puzzle is for somebody, either Long or Kouandijo to grab the RG spot.  And then to quote Lord Darth Vader,"The circle is now complete."

 

Btw, this franchise built a hell of a record in the 80's with Grimm, Bostic and May in the middle of the line.  I'd take that again in a heartbeat.  

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Moses is a mountain of a man.  Saw him on ESPN today, peering over the other guys in the huddle to get the play call from Griffin.

 

I remember Mayock commenting on guys that were 'huge' in the draft over the past several years.  He said you pick these guys apart because their feet are too slow, or that they don't do this or that particularly well, but at the end of the day they sometimes wind up being a great RT because they're just so damn big that they are hard to move or get around.

 

I can see Moses being like that.  Kudos to him for working his butt off and putting in the time to get better while recovering from injury.  That stands out to me more than anything.  He was determined to do whatever he needed to do to get on the field.  I always gain a lot of respect for guys who truly earn their spots.  Those guys are cornerstones of a great locker room.  Tip of the cap to him, and I'm looking forward to watching him progress.   

[Larry]

That is the biggest bunch of stupid I've heard from a cast of misfits who are trying to force a story where there isn't one.

I guess you weren't watching the draft, when we took Cousins, after drafting RG3?