Discussions on a heavily criticized OL

[Burgold]

It's tough when the OL is built to be mobile and get in the edges but the TE/WR can't block anything. When you run an outside zone scheme, it's imperative that the TE/WR block and set the edge.

When they cant, the RB has absolutely nowhere to go but sideways, and you end up losing yards.

This happened consistently.

Then Jay tried to get the OL to power block, which they're not built for, and that failed.

The fact is that the OL was built for a mobile, Shanahan style offense, and the TE/WR were built for a traditional passing game.

Which meant Bruce screwed Jay right out of the gate with a personnel mismatch.

Being a good GM doesn't mean just picking the best player, but picking a team of players that fit together.

The other thing that I thought was a bit odd is that you have a back like Alfred who seems to have very good vision, some good quickness, and power, but all you do is run him on stretch plays. Morris made the most of those, but you'd think if that's the type of running game you wanted you'd want a much faster back. Morris is on the high end of very good backs and maybe even the low end of great ones, but he is more of an Eddie George than an Adrian Peterson (and really, I think he's more of an Earnest Byner).

 

They designed a run blocking scheme designed to get home runs with a doubles hitter. Still, except for last year I can't really argue the results.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Watch the Pats or Packers, their line is fluid and choreographed and knows exactly what the QB is going to do and he trusts in their play as well, it's a well-oiled machine. Ours was disconnected pieces fighting each other, not simply several guys that don't know how to play.

 

I agree with all you wrote, but it's not an either/or situation imo, it's the scheme, coaching, blown assignments, and the personnel. Too often when it was time to man up on 3rd down and just block a guy, we'd have one or more OL just immediately get pushed straight back into the pocket, and that's when they weren't simply used and dodged. 

 

I agree better coaching has to improve the situation, but hopefully McC will get us some guys as well.

[Voice_of_Reason]

The other thing that I thought was a bit odd is that you have a back like Alfred who seems to have very good vision, some good quickness, and power, but all you do is run him on stretch plays. Morris made the most of those, but you'd think if that's the type of running game you wanted you'd want a much faster back. Morris is on the high end of very good backs and maybe even the low end of great ones, but he is more of an Eddie George than an Adrian Peterson (and really, I think he's more of an Earnest Byner).

They designed a run blocking scheme designed to get home runs with a doubles hitter. Still, except for last year I can't really argue the results.

I think Morris fits the Shanahan scheme like a glove. The most important thing that a Shanahan back has to have is patience, and then the ability to give one cut and get up the field.

Morris is great at both.

The issue, last year, is I think that there was enough confusion on the OL and with the TE/WRs that he honestly wasn't trusting his eyes.

And whatever you might think of them, there is no way that Fortster/McVay/Gruden could scheme the Shanahan offense better than the Shanahans.

I said this after Grudens opening press conference when he said he wanted to leave the run-game pretty much intact: bad idea.

Zorn said the same thing. Keep the Gibbs/Bugel run game, add WCO pass game. That was stupid.

It was stupid to try and run the Shanahan scheme without the Shanahans. Unless toure Gary Kubiac, I guess...

[Peregrine]

Well, if Gruden wants to keep with the power game, then they really have to bring in some fresh blood on the offensive line.  It seems like history would be bound to repeat itself if you dont address the problem and just expect it to become "fixed".

[TSO]

This just goes to show how difficult it is to deal with personnel not suited for each other, is one-dimensional, and often has one guy's strengths directly contradict another guy's.

We've got fans in here saying how stupid Gruden was for trying to run power and then others saying how stupid it was trying to keep the same ZBS, lol. Both are somewhat true, though diametrically opposed, and so I'm not sure stupidity had anything to do with it.

It really just underlines, once again, the importance of a proper GM who has the ability to understand the overall identity of what the team is and implement that vision.

You can't properly run stretch outside if you've got DJax lined up out there all the time and your TEs are failing as well. You can't properly run power man when your Oline is smaller than the opposing DLine majority of the time and can't get any push or win their one on ones.

So what the heck can you do, lol? I don't envy the coaches.

Shanny understood what it'd take to get his running game to work. But that's how you get Josh Morgan, who became useless in the passing game, a ton of snaps.

In the end, you just become too one-dimensional one way or another and, therefore, easy to stop for a defense.

Build the personnel to reflect what you want to do and get guys who fit into that core identity first, yet aren't completely unable to do anything else.

The signings from Scot so far have been just that. On defense, all are tough, physical guys but most are also multi-dimensional.

Peae, Knighton, Johnson, Culliver and Goldson are all tough, physical guys but most aren't exclusively that. Paea can pass rush and so can Knighton. Culliver is fast and can cover really well.

The only real question marks here are Goldson and Johnson, who fit the core identity of toughness and physicality but may have major issues covering. We don't know much about Johnson and we know Goldson didn't do well in the cover 2.

But you know every single one of those guys will be tough, physical and will not shy away from contact. You can see the identity being formed.

Hopefully, Gruden, Callahan and Scot will begin to do that with the Oline as well now through the draft and with guys like Long and Moses.

[Laron Burgundy]

Yup Wiz signed for pretty cheap and could have been interesting to have.

Reaching is grabbing a guy that would have been available next time to pick. If he's not going to, then you're not reaching.

And going BPA means not taking position into account. No matter what position plays a guy, if he's #5 on your board, you're #5 and 1,2,3 and 4 are gone, you pick your guy.

Even so, no tackle prospect is worth the 5th overall pick this year, you can't invent a player in the draft, gotta go with what's there.

And it's definitely a reach if the guy would go at 37 but you pick him at 5 because he won't be at 38. If you REALLY like the guy, and he's worth that much lower than your pick, then trade up or down for him.

[MumboSauce]

No expert or coach here, but my assessment... The O line isn't terrible, but certainly needs an upgrade on the right side. Sure great QB play makes an average o line look better...but a better o line could help out our young QB's too. Cousins fared better but we don't exactly have a "great" QB on the roster as it stands.  Apparently our TE's and RB's couldn't block worth a crap adding to the issue.  Also the personnel being partially Shanahan's (lighter zone blacking guys) and infusing Big mauling Gruden Power running guys needs to fully transition and have an identity like the rest of the team.  I hope some of the guys we drafted previously can step up and beat out some aging vets and Callahan can get the most out of them with coaching and scheme.  I wouldn't use the #5 pick on one, but if there is a trade down scenario getting a pass rusher and a right tackle would be ideal.

[Dark Acre]

Even so, no tackle prospect is worth the 5th overall pick this year, you can't invent a player in the draft, gotta go with what's there.

And it's definitely a reach if the guy would go at 37 but you pick him at 5 because he won't be at 38. If you REALLY like the guy, and he's worth that much lower than your pick, then trade up or down for him.

Usually it takes a partner to trade with.  If there's an OT who can zone, power, and pass block, I'd take him at 5 because unless we get lucky (which applies to every position), we're never going to get that RT we so badly need.

[stp240]

Well, you can blame many things on why the Skins were 4-12, last season. The defense couldn't stop anybody. The Skins were constantly playing from behind, which took the Skins out of their game plan. Jay didn't play to the strength of the offense. He simply didn't run the ball enough. When you pass more than you run, sacks will happen. Its more than just the OL. QB play was terrible. The offense constantly lost the battle of first down. I read where they led the league in penalties on first down. 1ST and 15-20 will doom any offense. Not saying the OL doesn't need help. It does!

 

So not only is our O-line lacking in talent, we also lack brains.  You are 100% correct about the penalties

 

There were games that I felt we didn't run the ball enough, but for the most part it was ineffective.  

 

Skins fans like to pile on the QB but honestly, all 3 of our guys can play at an average level in the NFL.  We have seen teams win super bowls with average QB play.

 

Jay did not prepare this team to play.  That was crystal clear.  Scheme, discipline, personel moves, player management, media relations, coaching hires and talent evaluation all F's for Jay Gruden last season.

 

Despite the lack of O-line talent, there are ways to scheme an offense to move the football.  Especially with Garcon and Jackson.

[MassSkinsFan]

I have a hard time putting the sole blame on the coach when players aren't paying attention or are too dumb to get what the coach is doing. Players have to be accountable first and foremost for not paying attention, not understanding or not doing their homework and learn the ****ing playbook.

Too many times, people don't get it, but don't ask because they don't want to be seen as dumb, so they act like they know when they don't and fool the coach/teacher/boss.

 

Players have to be accountable as well for doing their job. Paying attention, learning the playbook are part of it. And say "I don't get it, can you explain again?" is way better than saying "I got it", and then show you clearly didn't...

 

Which is where the coach has to bench that player. If I'm the coach for that group, I'm starting the guys who are learning and getting their assignments right. If none of them is smart enough, I'm looking to bring in other bodies.

 

You can never put 100% of the blame on any one person, especially when it comes to OL where it's a unit that performs instead of its pieces, but the coach is responsible for making these guys do their job or getting rid of them. Accepting the substandard play of someone who isn't paying attention or who just is too stupid to get it is on the coach.

[nemocystem]

Reading up on SM & how he drafts is a good idea for many of us. I see a ton of hand-wringing over what we SHOULD do, when all one need do is be informed on how loyal SM is to the teuest form of BPA philosophy...at least through round 4. It would save many the disappointment come draft day when we take someone that doesn't fit your narrative, & come to terms with the fact that whoever it was, they were the hands-down #1 player on SM's big-board.

Just feel like nobody should be getting too hung up on any one player, position, or scenario, & instead, we should all be open to a multitude of possibilities in preparation for the big reveal. I know that undoubtedly there will be teenage angsty disappointment all over this board no matter who we pick...but most of that will come from a seemingly large contingent of fans who seem to feel that if we don't draft position X...WE ARE TEH DOOMED!!!

Me...i have guys i like to be sure. Many more than others. What i lack is any expectations as to who we will pick, or at what position. I have a good idea who i THINK SM will look at as his type of guys, but i could be totally off base for all i know. So i am totally prepared for us to pass on LW, or draft MM, or trade back twice in the 1st for what amounts to a couple of mid-round picks. Heck, i am prepared for us to take Byron Jones, or even :: gasp...blasphemer! :: Todd Gurley at #5.

I realize that i can't expect everyone to take such a happy-go-lucky approach, but i urge everyone to try to understand the grand design before writing off whatever happens.

Optimistic, i know...but i just grow weary of people getting so up-in-arms indignant about their guys every draft. Don't get me wrong...I encourage debate, & discussion, & i quite enjoy that which normally does occur on this site in that regard. It's just these incessant griping, turned vitriolic diatribes about various draft prospects that grows tiresome.

It's ok to like 1 guy over another & still think the other guy is good, or worthy of a pick.

[Wildbunny]

Which is where the coach has to bench that player. If I'm the coach for that group, I'm starting the guys who are learning and getting their assignments right. If none of them is smart enough, I'm looking to bring in other bodies.

You can never put 100% of the blame on any one person, especially when it comes to OL where it's a unit that performs instead of its pieces, but the coach is responsible for making these guys do their job or getting rid of them. Accepting the substandard play of someone who isn't paying attention or who just is too stupid to get it is on the coach.

never said coach was not to blame. He was fired in the end, deservedly. And with all the injuries we had on the ol, it was tough to get to the next guy on the depth chart. S & C coach was thanked as well.

[Burgold]

So, if Scherff works out then one of two things happens.

 

Tackle becomes a position of strength.  Moses is still high potential and Compton can play in this league (very good back up).  Williams and Scherff would obviously be very good. Then Lich is dependable at Center. Still have questions at both guard spots, but they were really high on Long last training camp so fingers crossed.

 

We'll have a really great side of the line with a premier tackle, guard, and pretty good safety with Compton manning the tackle (which he was at least better than Polumbus at) and a a question at guard.

 

Mind you, we still have the rest of the draft and the second round of free agency.  Still, lot of work to go on this line, but good start.

[Wildbunny]

Yup, with Scherff not on our team, the second position we need to look at in the draft is C. I love Licht for everything he's done for us, but he doesn't fit system and won't last long. We need someone he can groom and teach.

[Rodriggo]

Great teams don't have just one very good player on their o-line and a bunch of average at best journeymen/developmental WIPs.

 

It was definitely an issue, 1 or 1A of many and Scherff was BPA....slam dunk.

[Reverend Gonna Change]

Yup, with Scherff not on our team, the second position we need to look at in the draft is C. I love Licht for everything he's done for us, but he doesn't fit system and won't last long. We need someone he can groom and teach.

That we did. The center we took in the 7th is being overlooked but I love his story. Plus, #7 SPARQ score of all OL.

It's clear this staff wants a culture change in the trenches. Finally!!!!

[Laron Burgundy]

Fun fact about Reiter, the guards beside him were named Thor and Brynjar.

[abdcskins]

What are the prospects for Morgan Moses this upcoming year?

Just wondering what his role is now that we drafted a few offensive linemen. I still think he deserves a chance.

[Reverend Gonna Change]

What are the prospects for Morgan Moses this upcoming year?

Just wondering what his role is now that we drafted a few offensive linemen. I still think he deserves a chance.

Scot said everybody would compete and the best 5 would start. He could kick inside, he could play RT. Worst case scenario, Scot said, he becomes a swing tackle/quality backup. Guys go work, basically, and Callahan will sort it all out.

[Riggo-toni]

If Murphy ends up a backup/rotational player behind Preston Smith, and neither Long nor Moses starts on what has been a poor OL, Scott McC has to hold Campbell and the rest of the leftover FO accountable. Last year's draft may be approaching Vinny Bugeyes 2008 draft in sheer futility. Even the best GMs have bad draft years, but these guys don't have any successes to justify their continued employment.

[Darrell Green Fan]

If Murphy ends up a backup/rotational player behind Preston Smith, and neither Long nor Moses starts on what has been a poor OL, Scott McC has to hold Campbell and the rest of the leftover FO accountable. Last year's draft may be approaching Vinny Bugeyes 2008 draft in sheer futility. Even the best GMs have bad draft years, but these guys don't have any successes to justify their continued employment.

 

Yeah I agree here.  And it's moves like this that got George Allen out of making personnel decisions.  It was my understanding that due to contracts GMSM was forced to retain the previous staff, not sure why or how that works.  But it's a safe bet there will be changes this off season I would think

[gortiz]

would he be a fit here, technique wise and financially... I guess we got ask about team chemistry also. He's also old ... did I just answer my own question ... 

 

Eagles release Evan Mathis, who has skipped OTAs in contract spat

PHILADELPHIA -- The Eagles on Thursday released Pro Bowl guardEvan Mathis, ending a standoff that continued through two offseasons.

 

Mathis, 33, was unhappy with the five-year, $25 million contract he signed in 2012 and has skipped all of the Eagles' offseason activities, which were voluntary. The Eagles were scheduled to have three days of mandatory training next week. Mathis could have been fined if he failed to report for those workouts.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13059629/philadelphia-eagles-release-guard-evan-mathis

[LD0506]

IMO it's not just about age and cost, but the fact that he's an established vet that, while very good at what he does, is going to find it difficult to "buy in" to what we're building- scheme, attitude, etc.

 

Not a knock on the guy but I just don't see him being a good value for us, and Scot is all about value.

[KevinthePRF]

Anyone said it about Mathis yet? Anyone...anyone...? Okay just in case....

VET MIN PLUS INCENTIVES!

[Koolblue13]

Anyone said it about Mathis yet? Anyone...anyone...? Okay just in case....

VET MIN PLUS INCENTIVES!

That never needs to be said. Ever. Especially about probowl guards.