Discussions on a heavily criticized OL

[bedlamVR]

If Scherff is the pick following a trade down to the middle of the 1st round then you have to be happy taking him at 5. That is if that is the guy you covet over all others - but coveting a player or even a position is when you can get into trouble in the NFL draft because you end up over reaching for someone (especially in the first round) .

 

I am fine with us trading back, I am fine with us staying where we are and while I would love to address the OL in the first round with a nasty physical OG or potential RT what I am not fine with is taking that player over higher impact players at other positions. If it is a choice between Scherff or Cooper I would take Cooper in a heart beat because he is more likey to have over his career the biggest impact for the team.

 

The OL is a special case, unlike virtually any other position where 1 superstar can improve an entire unit the OL has to be 5 (or 7 or 8) guys working as 1 and that did not happen last season - I think the biggest issue was Gruden was a first time HC and he did not pay attention to the details, so the offense was a mishmash of offensive philosophies that simply did not tie in well with each other. If no other benefit is had by Callahan coming on board other than he says what he thinks will and will not work then he is a decent hire - I am not sure we had that strong fresh voice last season.

[LD0506]

Ok, probably just my usual "it's the coffee talkin'" morning post, but there seems to be a lot of people that just rant about the O-line based on results but very little insight on the why that underperformed so woefully. I am not one of the coaching mavens that abound here, and I'm gladly open to further explanations on why I don't know what I'm talking about, but.........

 

Going back and looking at the games from last year, and even the last two, my inexperienced eyes seem to see a lot of blown assignments resulting in sacks, pressure, etc., that came from complete confusion at times of what they're supposed to do. These guys have spent their lives playing football, how is it that they collectively suffered traumatic amnesia about basic elements of the assignments?

 

I wonder how much of a factor Robert's injury and the resulting firestorm of scrutiny and criticism played into it. A ZBS line was called onto to do things outside its skillset, to play away from the strength of the scheme to try and cover the QB, to play beyond exactly what their job was to cover deficiencies elsewhere, in essence, playing scared of what might happen at the prodding of the staff. Repeatedly I saw guards move to double interior rushers w/ the C only to leave gaps easily exploited by delayed blitzers, and not because the C was crumbling but just reflexively, instead of holding the line. Saw this more than once. I think that Foerster & Co. felt pressure mounting and tried to get cute at times, and failed miserably. I think you could make the case w/ the secondary as well, I have endured a LOT of "WTF was thaaaaaaat??!?" but last year takes the cake. It is disingenuous to simply write off players as sucking without any other context.

 

Watch the Pats or Packers, their line is fluid and choreographed and knows exactly what the QB is going to do and he trusts in their play as well, it's a well-oiled machine. Ours was disconnected pieces fighting each other, not simply several guys that don't know how to play.

 

Callahan comes in and will demand disciplined play that fits the larger picture, IMO that is going to reduce a lot of the facepalming, and I'm counting on improved communication upstream and down as far as the players he and Scot think will work best. Until we see what they think of the roster there's no "stick Scherff in/ problem solved" magic bullet.

 

It's easy to point fingers and catcall about Moses or Chester or ___________ (fill in the blank ) but until I see what the improved staff can do, I'm just not ready to heap it all on any one guy on the roster.

[Burgold]

 

 

I wonder how much of a factor Robert's injury and the resulting firestorm of scrutiny and criticism played into it. A ZBS line was called onto to do things outside its skillset, to play away from the strength of the scheme to try and cover the QB, to play beyond exactly what their job was to cover deficiencies elsewhere, in essence, playing scared of what might happen at the prodding of the staff. Repeatedly I saw guards move to double interior rushers w/ the C only to leave gaps easily exploited by delayed blitzers, and not because the C was crumbling but just reflexively, instead of holding the line. Saw this more than once. I think that Foerster & Co. felt pressure mounting and tried to get cute at times, and failed miserably. I think you could make the case w/ the secondary as well, I have endured a LOT of "WTF was thaaaaaaat??!?" but last year takes the cake. It is disingenuous to simply write off players as sucking without any other context.

 

Watch the Pats or Packers, their line is fluid and choreographed and knows exactly what the QB is going to do and he trusts in their play as well, it's a well-oiled machine. Ours was disconnected pieces fighting each other, not simply several guys that don't know how to play.

 

 

I think you make a good point about the lack of coordination and confusion on the line. It also explains the failures on special teams. Way too many punt and field goal blocks over the past few years. I do think the RGIII injury thing is overblown. Here's why. This line was largely assembled and built before RGIII. It was built to Shanny's specifications and wasn't designed assuming that you had the Flash at QB.  Shanny's QB's all had an element of mobility, but they were more mobile in the way that Cousin's is. A guy who can move, but isn't expected to be Barry Sanders in the backfield on every snap.

 

I think the expectation that a QB is supposed to always make the first guy miss is ridiculous (not that I think you are saying this). I also think that any line should be built so that if the ball is supposed to be away on three then they should be able to hold at least til four. **** happens. More to the point, if the fault of the line is they are being asked to do what they can't do, if it's that there was miscoordination and a failure to understand the blocking scheme, or if it it was player failure... well, none of it is acceptable. None of it is an excuse. Chester, Lavaou, Lich, Williams, and Polumbus are all savvy vets. The reasons for their failures rang hollow. The important thing is to fix it. That means fixing the qb when he screws up, it means fixing the rbs and tes, but most of all it means repairing the five guys up front.

 

If this line can only function with RGIII being a superhuman then it's a worthless line. Even if RGIII becomes superhuman again, you shouldn't depend on it. Fix the line, fix the problems in discipline, fix everything. Frankly, I think that has to involve getting better players.

 

Shanny bragged that he developed a scheme where you didn't even need to block the right end because he would be so confused as to be irrelevant. Well, that was good because Polumbus couldn't block the right end... often couldn't even lay a glove on him. And while it's cool that a system like that can work... it's a stupid way to have to go. We need players who can beat their man, who can win their battles, and who aren't always falling down backwards because a stiff wind pushed them down.

 

The line is broken. It's broken due to personnel, scheme, and trust. These guys don't trust it to work and in their hesitation they get trucked or miss assignments.

 

In short, fix the line.

[Dark Acre]

You're assuming they were given the chance to.  Long was coming off an injury his last year in college and Moses was out of position.  They may simply have never been offered the opportunity

Love the brain trust that uses a 3rd rounder to draft a guard nobody had heard of who was injured.  And folks here talk about not drafting a starting caliber RT who has potential to be our long-term booked because he should go 10-15 spots lower in the 1st.  [facepalm]

[pjfootballer]

Shanny bragged that he developed a scheme where you didn't even need to block the right end because he would be so confused as to be irrelevant. Well, that was good because Polumbus couldn't block the right end... often couldn't even lay a glove on him.

 

I have to admit. I figgin laughed out lout at this.   :lol:  

[Wildbunny]

I think you make a good point about the lack of coordination and confusion on the line.

 

I've said it so many times... They're not that bad as individuals, but they don't have any cohesion. They do not work as a line. You almost never see a G coming to help its T or C, and leaving them open to mistake, and then sack or whatever. If Bill brings at least some cohesion within it and they acts like a line, then I don't really care if our OL are TW, Scherff, Wiz, Long and Moses or if they are Moses, Lauvao, Licht, Chester and Polumbus. We'll be improved no matter what.

[Burgold]

I've said it so many times... They're not that bad as individuals, but they don't have any cohesion. They do not work as a line. You almost never see a G coming to help its T or C, and leaving them open to mistake, and then sack or whatever. If Bill brings at least some cohesion within it and they acts like a line, then I don't really care if our OL are TW, Scherff, Wiz, Long and Moses or if they are Moses, Lauvao, Licht, Chester and Polumbus. We'll be improved no matter what.

I think the problem that Chester and Lich to a lesser degree has is the same one that we faced with Brandon Banks.  Banks was electric when healthy and a dynamic returner. Problem was that he was so little he often got overwhelmed and hurt and once dinged he couldn't function because without that superior quickness and speed the other guys were just way too big.

 

I get the feeling that Chris suffers the same problem. He's big enough and quick enough to be okay when he's totally healthy, but if he gets nicked up, his size becomes a problem that is amplified for him. He can't make up for it with his wiles and his brute strength just isn't enough to overcome bigger, faster opponents.

[MassSkinsFan]

Interesting posts about lack of coordination versus lack of individual talent. I saw both.

 

Chester and Polumbus were individually sub-standard. To a lesser degree Lauvao and Lich were too. Those instances are easily spotted - when these guys got rag-dolled you could see it clearly.

 

There were also a lot of blown assignments or crap calls on the line. On most lines the center makes adjustments to the play called in the huddle based on what he sees at the line. I think there were instances where he made the wrong call and also instances where he made the right one but someone else along the line either didn't heed the change or just plain misunderstood it. When one guy is clearly out of position or providing support where it isn't needed, that's on him. When the whole line messes up, that's on the C.

 

To summarize, we had several guys along the OL who were not talented enough to start, we had several OL guys who didn't carry out their assignments correctly and we had a C who didn't always make the right calls.

 

Does that accurately capture the state of our **** show OL in 2014?

 

If so, let's perform a quick root cause analysis:

 

• Why didn't we have 5 starters on the OL?
  • We didn't acquire starters
  • We focused on other areas in the draft and FA
  • Our FO was not that good, and probably had non-football people making football decisions
• Why did players blow their assignments?
  • They weren't paying attention
  • They didn't learn the assignments in the first place
  • They lacked discipline
  • All these point to poor coaching
• Why did the C make the wrong calls?
  • He didn't understand what he was looking at
  • He wasn't prepared for the defense they were playing
  • This too points to coaching

 

So, my guess is that a coaching upgrade, coupled with a GM who is a football guy, will address most of the problems, eventually. I can't wait!

[Wildbunny]

• Why did players blow their assignments?
  • They weren't paying attention
  • They didn't learn the assignments in the first place
  • They lacked discipline
  • All these point to poor coaching
• Why did the C make the wrong calls?
  • He didn't understand what he was looking at
  • He wasn't prepared for the defense they were playing
  • This too points to coaching

 

I'm not gonna defend Foerster, because I think we needed a change badly at this coaching position. But it's not always 100% on the coach.

 

I have a hard time putting the sole blame on the coach when players aren't paying attention or are too dumb to get what the coach is doing. Players have to be accountable first and foremost for not paying attention, not understanding or not doing their homework and learn the ****ing playbook.

Too many times, people don't get it, but don't ask because they don't want to be seen as dumb, so they act like they know when they don't and fool the coach/teacher/boss.

 

Players have to be accountable as well for doing their job. Paying attention, learning the playbook are part of it. And say "I don't get it, can you explain again?" is way better than saying "I got it", and then show you clearly didn't...

[Arsenic]

Our 2nd rounder is almost another 1st, thankfully

anywho..

Hopefully TJ Clemmings falls to us in the 2nd round.

[carex]

Love the brain trust that uses a 3rd rounder to draft a guard nobody had heard of who was injured.  And folks here talk about not drafting a starting caliber RT who has potential to be our long-term booked because he should go 10-15 spots lower in the 1st.  [facepalm]

 

Mike Mayock  had him taken in the third or fourth round and Walterfootball had him 3rd to 5th

[cakmoney61]

If Scherff is the pick following a trade down to the middle of the 1st round then you have to be happy taking him at 5. That is if that is the guy you covet over all others - but coveting a player or even a position is when you can get into trouble in the NFL draft because you end up over reaching for someone (especially in the first round) .

 

I am fine with us trading back, I am fine with us staying where we are and while I would love to address the OL in the first round with a nasty physical OG or potential RT what I am not fine with is taking that player over higher impact players at other positions. If it is a choice between Scherff or Cooper I would take Cooper in a heart beat because he is more likey to have over his career the biggest impact for the team.

 

 

I totally agree!  I would rather have Scherff before any other OL, but if the Redskins stay at #5 and have to choose between Williams, Cooper, and Scherff, Scherff would be third on my list.  

 

But, if I rate Scherff as the better player, I am running to the podium to pick him barring a trade down that's too good to pass up. 

 

BOTTOM LINE:  They MUST draft a stud with their first pick regardless of position!

[TSO]

I couldn't disagree more about the Oline "lacking cohesion" or just blowing assignments. I don't see that at all. I could be wrong, but I believe that's actually a strength of theirs (out of the few strengths there are) and they're a pretty smart, cohesive group that works well together in terms of assignments/responsibilities.

I'd say that's the biggest reason why it was difficult for the young guys to beat anyone out as well. Well, that and the loyalty that develops between coach and player.

The problem is that they're physically incapable of anchoring well or simply dominating the LOS. That's where we need to improve the most and that's the type of line Gruden and Callahan both prefer based on their histories.

When the Oline expected help from the RB/TE they got next to nothing. I'm pretty sure what some of you are talking about above with regards to A Gap pressure or whatever had nothing to do with a "bad call by the C" or a lack of cohesion, but more about passing a blitzing LBer off to the RB who failed to properly block him.

That's what I saw more than anything. I get that without sitting down with a coach who knows exactly what was called and who failed/succeeded at their responsibility every play, it's difficult to claim total objectivity on the matter... But it also fits with what we're seeing and hearing from the FO and coaching staff on the matter so far.

So, sorry, I just can't subscribe to the idea that the Oline lacked cohesion or poorly communicated with each other. Didn't see that at all. Not even close. It's enough to know their physical limitations to understand how and why we need to improve majorly there without attempting to criticize what is next to impossible to know.

[RandyHolt]

Over the past decade I remember more OL blown pass block assignments, than were afforded our defense.

 

It may have gotten a little better this past year, but not significantly. Our OL still seems lost an awful lot for a relatively static group in recent years. 

 

They also need to coordinate with our backs and TEs. Somehow despite also having the same backs and TEs, they all struggled.  No chemistry. 

 

I sure hope it was our OL coach since it seems our line may be very similar to last year. 

[Laron Burgundy]

Love the brain trust that uses a 3rd rounder to draft a guard nobody had heard of who was injured. And folks here talk about not drafting a starting caliber RT who has potential to be our long-term booked because he should go 10-15 spots lower in the 1st. [facepalm]

Depends who that rt is, it's not like you can just invent players in the draft. Reaching for a tackle is exactly how you get a mediocre team. We would be one of the only teams, maybe the only team, ever to draft a RT in the top 5 with the plan that they stay at rt. It's just not a smart use of resources.

[rskin72]

Some good insight and opinions on the oline play. I agree that shanny had oline setup for zbs, which requires a smaller, faster player than a more traditional power scheme preferred by gruden. Roberts play in 12, and Almo's running, kind of hid some of our line issues.

The team has tried to address the line with low round draft picks but none outside of Compton has managed to crack the starting line. Maybe our new oline coach has looked at film and thinks his scheme can work with the talent already on hand.

[PlayAction]

There's no reason to "reach" for any player. The new GM has, in several interviews, made it sound like the Skins need 2-3 drafts plus letting the players mature in their positions.

[carex]

There's no reason to "reach" for any player. The new GM has, in several interviews, made it sound like the Skins need 2-3 drafts plus letting the players mature in their positions.

 

while that's reasonable to say, it kind of throws out a couple of decent drafts and seems to expect no free agent success

 

And I know people are looking at things like the WR situation and saying Jackson or Garcon could be gone soon, there will be other drafts.  There will be other receivers and other tackles.  Compare Cooper and Sheriff  to whatever WR or OT could be gotten in the future

[RedBeast]

There's no reason to "reach" for any player. The new GM has, in several interviews, made it sound like the Skins need 2-3 drafts plus letting the players mature in their positions.

Fully agree. 3 solid years we should definitely have a stronger roster. SMs contract is 4 years.

Potential scenario...JG has 4 years left on his contract also. SM drafts x 4 years and JGs contract doesn't get renewed or he gets axed before that. Then SM selects the coach of his choice and has the roster he wants. Renew SMs contract with strong roster, new coach and probably new QB. Also by that time the scouting department is squared away.

I honestly believe that is highly plausible. I believe SM already has a few people in mind. We are in a bridge mode right now and I think JG is part of the old era. Doubt he can be successful as a HC. Could be wrong on that, but we'll see.

[Peregrine]

Im a bit disappointed we didnt get Wis.  1 year and 2.5 million is pretty cheap, certainly an upgrade over Chester at 4.8 million.

[Wildbunny]

Yup Wiz signed for pretty cheap and could have been interesting to have.

 

Depends who that rt is, it's not like you can just invent players in the draft. Reaching for a tackle is exactly how you get a mediocre team. We would be one of the only teams, maybe the only team, ever to draft a RT in the top 5 with the plan that they stay at rt. It's just not a smart use of resources.

 

Reaching is grabbing a guy that would have been available next time to pick. If he's not going to, then you're not reaching.

And going BPA means not taking position into account. No matter what position plays a guy, if he's #5 on your board, you're #5 and 1,2,3 and 4 are gone, you pick your guy.

[stp240]

We have the worst Offensive line in the league and its not even close.

 

Run Blocking? Awful

Pass Blocking? Awful

 

No talented free agent O-linemen = No signings in free agency

 

 

Here is a fun thought.  Name any player in the NFL worse than Shawn Lavau, Chris Chester or Tyler Polumbus.

 

I thought Stephon Heyer was as bad as it gets...NOPE

 

Very fustrating that the young guys did not get playing time last season.  We were so concerned about winning games at the end of a failed season...for what?   Thats the Redskins for you

[maskedsuperstar]

We have the worst Offensive line in the league and its not even close.

 

Run Blocking? Awful

Pass Blocking? Awful

 

No talented free agent O-linemen = No signings in free agency

 

 

Here is a fun thought.  Name any player in the NFL worse than Shawn Lavau, Chris Chester or Tyler Polumbus.

 

I thought Stephon Heyer was as bad as it gets...NOPE

 

Very fustrating that the young guys did not get playing time last season.  We were so concerned about winning games at the end of a failed season...for what?   Thats the Redskins for you

Well, you can blame many things on why the Skins were 4-12, last season. The defense couldn't stop anybody. The Skins were constantly playing from behind, which took the Skins out of their game plan. Jay didn't play to the strength of the offense. He simply didn't run the ball enough. When you pass more than you run, sacks will happen. Its more than just the OL. QB play was terrible. The offense constantly lost the battle of first down. I read where they led the league in penalties on first down. 1ST and 15-20 will doom any offense. Not saying the OL doesn't need help. It does!

[RandyHolt]

The OL play was bad but the entire teams play was bad. But I for one thought the OL was going to be better. Having an elite LT is a rare thing and should be not discounted when building expectations for an OL.

 

They had the continuity thing going on. Almost the exact same personnel on offense. People thought RG3 held us back but he was out injured a plenty to see if it was all his fault.

 

A lot came down to how Jay chose to run the ball. He square peg round holed the ZBS guys into power guys, and they struggled. When you can't run it (Morris could barely get 100 all year), passing becomes that much harder. 

 

I am a bit disappointed that GMSM has not targeted the OL early on but need to give him and Callahan time, I suppose. I just hope someone sorts out Gruden's use of the OL. Here I will try.

 

Internets to Jay, your OL as constructed is not built to power block. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

It's tough when the OL is built to be mobile and get in the edges but the TE/WR can't block anything. When you run an outside zone scheme, it's imperative that the TE/WR block and set the edge.

When they cant, the RB has absolutely nowhere to go but sideways, and you end up losing yards.

This happened consistently.

Then Jay tried to get the OL to power block, which they're not built for, and that failed.

The fact is that the OL was built for a mobile, Shanahan style offense, and the TE/WR were built for a traditional passing game.

Which meant Bruce screwed Jay right out of the gate with a personnel mismatch.

Being a good GM doesn't mean just picking the best player, but picking a team of players that fit together.