Next Day Thread: Pew Pew Pew... Shots... Explosives

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, Chachie said:

2. Sam Howell is a work in progress but he did have the best stats of all the NFCE QBs. (Thus the week 1 wackiness.)

 

 

Pretty sure Dak had the highest QBR, but outside of that, yep...👍

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Uh...several people here, Twitter, and Terry McLaurin who was quoted as saying EB had "championship caliber".  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/02/23/eric-bieniemy-commanders-offense/

 

 

Oh come on. You're completely taking that article's Terry quote out of context and misinterpreting it. Terry wasn't saying we would immediately have a championship level offense. He was talking about EB in general and his pedigree.

 

"He brings that championship caliber with him, his ability to just win"

[DJHJR86]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Oh come on. You're completely taking that article's Terry quote out of context and misinterpreting it. Terry wasn't saying we would immediately have a championship level offense. He was talking about EB in general and his pedigree.

 

"He brings that championship caliber with him, his ability to just win"

 

Terry said he brings a 'championship caliber' with the hiring and did not say that the offense was at a championship level, yes.  But to pretend that people weren't gushing about this hire before it even happened is pure delusion.  Then it happened and people thought this offense was going to drastically improve from Scott Turner.  

[HigSkin]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

The first time we play them is at the end of November. Plenty of time for EB to clear things up and Howell to not hold on to the football longer than it needs to be. Quick throws on a aggressive D will keep them in check along with a better run game than what we saw 

 

I forget who said it, maybe Grant or Keim on The Junkies that they thought they would have a better vertical game vs Cards which was part of the game plan.  However, they said expect to see the quick game vs more aggressive and better defenses in the future.

[samy316]

I’m very pleased with the defense after yesterday’s performance.  They single-handedly turned a possible embarrassing loss into a win with that effort in the 2nd half.  I’m more worried about the offense, and in particular the offensive line.  EB was erratic yesterday with his play calling, and I think he had a rough day at the office, calling so many passing plays for Howell.  At one point in the game, the pass to run ratio was 4-1.  It can’t be that lopsided for a young QB making his 2nd career start, with a horrific offensive line.  That’s a fast way to get your young QB killed early on in the season.

 

I’m not going to go into detail about how horrifically awful the O-Line was yesterday, since I’ve been harping on about it non-stop since the draft back in April.  6 sacks from the Cardinals D should put the fear of God into any fan going forward, in anticipation of what’s to come when they play the Eagles in a few weeks, and then later in the season when they play the Cowboys.  We don’t have a prayer of winning those games, unless we dramatically re-shape the O-Line, or the play calling improves going forward.

[MartinC]

General comment I think people’s views of the game are colored by the expectation/narrative that the Cardinals are awful and we should blow them out. 
 

I think the Cards O IS awful - the only reason the game was close was we turned the ball over 3 times and gave up effectively 10 points off those turnovers and cost ourselves at least 3. So a 13 point swing.

 

But the Cards D is decent - they played well. Gave us fits up front. The concern there clearly being we will be playing teams with even better D’s and soon!

 

But I was one saying just win the game. Clearly I’d have loved us to blow them out 40 - 0. But only truly bad teams get blown out by 40. Hardly ever happens (😂). 
 

But seriously for me it was about coming out of the game with the win. Now we have actual game film and reps for coaches to evaluate - lots to fix!
 

But we are 1-0. I’m still thinking 7 or 8 wins all being equal. 

6 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

I forget who said it, maybe Grant or Keim on The Junkies that they thought they would have a better vertical game vs Cards which was part of the game plan.  However, they said expect to see the quick game vs more aggressive and better defenses in the future.

I think we threw it deep once. Drew a PI on Terry. 
 

Tough to be vertical though when you are giving up 6 sacks.

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, samy316 said:

one point in the game, the pass to run ratio was 4-1.  It can’t be that lopsided for a young QB making his 2nd career start, with a horrific offensive line.  That’s a fast way to get your young QB killed early on in the season.

Im OK with pass heavy play calling when a lot of those passes were short quick game throws that really just replace run calls. But I agree we got away from the run too much in the first half in particular.
 

Our long run was only 6 or 7 yards so the run game was not exactly firing but when we committed to it late we were moving the chains. I’m afraid we need to lean more on the run game if for no other reason it will cover up some of the pass pro issues - run more and use play action more would seem obvious adjustments.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

26 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Uh...several people here, Twitter, and Terry McLaurin who was quoted as saying EB had "championship caliber".  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/02/23/eric-bieniemy-commanders-offense/

 

 

 

C’mon man.

 

We hired the OC of the Super Bowl champs, so technically EB is ‘championship caliber’.  Beyond that, folks always have nice things to say about new hires.

 

Besides the small contingent of homers that convince themselves every year is going to be the year, most of what I’ve seen is folks really concerned about the talent of our offensive line.  There are a few who think with time to gel and familiarity with the system they can be better.  Which I’d agree with to an extent, but the void in talent is obvious.  An OC isn’t going to turn chicken **** into chicken tendies.

11 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Terry said he brings a 'championship caliber' with the hiring and did not say that the offense was at a championship level, yes.  But to pretend that people weren't gushing about this hire before it even happened is pure delusion.  Then it happened and people thought this offense was going to drastically improve from Scott Turner.  

Free agency and the draft hadn’t taken place yet.  Considering how awful the OL was last season, it’s only natural to expect it to be heavily addressed in the offseason.  It was somewhat addressed but not in a way that anyone was hype for.

[kingdaddy]

32 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

Is it scheme or do we seriously overrate our skilled guys on offense? I like Brian Robinson, but he's not a number one back. Even our WR's go stretches without no significant production. Same players, different scheme and the same results. 

I threw this out there a few weeks ago and got a pretty lukewarm to bad response but I'll say it again. Offer Chase Young, BRob and a 4th for Jonathon Taylor and see if Indy takes it. I love BRob but Taylor is Taylor and Young is likely gone after this season barring a great, healthy season. Sam Howell needs a running game to help him grow. Taylor is a clear top 5 back in the league and is only 24. Like others, I don't see much in Gibby anymore as a tailback. Trade for Taylor, insert Cole Turner and see what that does. 

The Niners went out and got McCaffery, why can't we go get Taylor? A great running game is a QB and defenses best friend. That's where I'd be looking to improve this week for starters.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

I think running back generally is a need. Robinson is a solid and powerful back who will get you 4 yards if you need 3, is good picking up blitzes and can catch. That’s valuable but he’s not a plus starting back IMO. Rodriquez is a rookie who might develop. Gibson very likely won’t be here next season. 
 

Our longest run yesterday was like 6 yards. Some of this is about blocking but some of it is about our backs. I’d add it as a need for next offseason.

 

This is not going to be a high powered run game.  This is an Andy Reid offense.  Within the scheme, I think B Rob is enough.  He made some big plays yesterday too.  The adjustment to the late scramble throw for his TD was nice and he one handed another wounded duck pass that was behind him and needed to be caught.  He also bounced out a beast mode run to pick up the first down that should have iced the game if Bates hadn't gotten called for a hold.  That was great willpower and creativity after the intended playcall broke down.  He's a system player, but he's a good one.

 

Gibson probably doesn't have much of a future on this team unfortunately.  Felt bad for him after the fumble because he's come a long way since his second season, and that play was just unfortunate for him.  He got hit and stood up and the second tackler Charles Tillmaned him with a perfect punch and Zaven Collins was right there to recover.  Other guys put the ball on the ground too when they were being loose with it but got lucky and they won't catch any crap for it.

 

We could certainly use a faster back once Gibson leaves.  We're also going to need a talent infusion at OT.  And we're also going to have to get better at TE.  That's a featured role in our offense and Logan Thomas just isn't it.  I'm still hopeful for Turner to become good, but he's probably like a TE2 best case scenario.

 

It's important to get the right guys at TE and OT though.  OL play league wide was an absolute mess yesterday, including for teams that have spent a heinous amount of resources on the position group.  Evan Neal sucks.  Trevor Penning sucks.  Jawaan Taylor sucks.  The whole middle of the Vikings line sucks.  The Bucs OL sucked.  Both the Steelers and 49ers pass pro sucked.  12 players had multiple sacks yesterday, and most of them are not TJ Watt level players.  Even the Eagles OL sucked yesterday.  Let's not bury our team in week one for not winning the game by enough to claim a moral victory too.

[DJHJR86]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Besides the small contingent of homers that convince themselves every year is going to be the year, most of what I’ve seen is folks really concerned about the talent of our offensive line.  There are a few who think with time to gel and familiarity with the system they can be better.  Which I’d agree with to an extent, but the void in talent is obvious.  An OC isn’t going to turn chicken **** into chicken tendies.

 

Yes, you are seeing concerns about the offensive line right now because of how bad they looked in the preseason and yesterday.  But plenty of people thought that when Bieniemy was hired he wasn't just going to turn chicken **** into chicken tendies, he was going to turn it into chicken parmesan.  

[RandyHolt]

TE snap count yesterday: - Logan Thomas 58 (82%) - John Bates 26 (37%) - Cole Turner 10 (14%)

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Im OK with pass heavy play calling when a lot of those passes were short quick game throws that really just replace run calls. But I agree we got away from the run too much in the first half in particular.
 

Our long run was only 6 or 7 yards so the run game was not exactly firing but when we committed to it late we were moving the chains. I’m afraid we need to lean more on the run game if for no other reason it will cover up some of the pass pro issues - run more and use play action more would seem obvious adjustments.

 

Is it just me, or did the run game also look somewhat unimaginative?

 

This could be me, because I'm not as well versed on seeing the specific intricacies of run concepts and plays as many others on here. But it just seemed to me like most of our running plays were just straight up the gut.

[skinny21]

Re-watched the game focusing on the oline and…

On the bright side, I don’t think it was as bad as it looked on first watch.  I believe 2 of the sacks came from Charles thinking he was passing his guy off (once to Leno, once to Gates)… ie correctable mistakes.  One of the sacks was Logan 1 on 1 against the DE.  Cards also showed blitz fairly often, but would end up bringing “exotic” pressure - rushing 4 via dropping DEs/DTs and rushing LBs or safeties.  Put our oline to the test for sure and was a smart gameplan against an oline new to playing together.  And of course the two turnovers hurt.  While I don’t think the Arizona dline is very good, their aggressiveness and the variance of their rushes might make them look better than their actual talent level this year.  We’ll see what they do against better olines/veteran qbs.

 

On the down side, it was still pretty bad.  Charles got steamrolled once, Wylie had some struggles, and Leno got beat at least a couple of times.  It also could have been worse.  Howell escaped pressure, penalties let us off the hook at times, there were a few near ints.  Scary to think how this group will hold up to more talented pass rushing teams.  Yikes.

 

Based on what we saw this preseason, I already had the feeling that this season was going to be a struggle offensively with the combo of a young qb and oline lacking talent and cohesion.  Seeing Kurt Warner’s breakdown really solidified that, showing Howell turning down throws, not flipping his reads based on the numbers game, etc., things that come with experience.  If this was Howell’s second season starting, or if the oline was better, I’d feel a lot more optimistic.  While I still think EB’s scheme could have mitigated poor oline play to a significant degree, I didn’t realize just how much time/experience Howell would need to be able to execute that possibility.  That’s not to put this on Howell at all, it’s just asking too much of a young qb.

[NewCliche21]

59 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

For those at the game that weren't allowed to see a replay in the stadium... no surprise that the NFL highlights on YouTube do not show it.

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, mistertim said:

That hit on Howell should have been an immediate ejection, a fine, and a possible suspension. That wasn't incidental in any way. He knew Howell was out of bounds already, he launched himself, and he specifically launched himself head first at Howell's helmet. 

 

At the game in section 453, so opposite sideline on the other 30.  EVERYONE could see that it was ejection-worthy. Not even as homers, that was un-****ing-believable that he was allowed to still be in the game.

My son asked why the bad guy was allowed to stay in. I didn't have an answer for him. That sucked.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Yes, you are seeing concerns about the offensive line right now because of how bad they looked in the preseason and yesterday.  But plenty of people thought that when Bieniemy was hired he wasn't just going to turn chicken **** into chicken tendies, he was going to turn it into chicken parmesan.  

First of all that’s BS.  I was here all offseason, and while I believe the general consensus was absolutely - better than Scott Turner and likely the best Ron could do - I don’t recall many thinking we were good on talent and merely adding EB = Championship.

 

That’s you cherry picking and over embellishing for the sake of trying to have a gotcha moment for yourself.

[NewCliche21]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

TE snap count yesterday: - Logan Thomas 58 (82%) - John Bates 26 (37%) - Cole Turner 10 (14%)

 

Logan who? I thought EB traded for Toney and just threw him in at TE.

[profusion]

With some time to reflect, I'm not quite sure what to take away from yesterday. It seemed like a wildly uneven day on offense, and even on defense in the first half.

 

--the OL had their moments and it seemed like the run blocking created some opportunities. The pass blocking wasn't all bad, but when it was bad it was a disaster. That's worrying for keeping any or all of our QBs healthy.

 

--Howell wasn't as consistent as I hoped to see, and he should have had a couple more INTs than he got. Other times, though, his throws were great and he made things happen by scrambling. I think he needs to be on the move a lot of the time for this offense to have a chance. He needs to get rid of the ball quicker, too. I'm looking for continual improvement from him this season, not perfection.

 

--The TE situation is a problem. Howell needs good TE play at this early stage of his career, and he wasn't getting much of it yesterday. If EB is running the "KC offense", TE is a huge part of that, so...

 

--Gibson shouldn't be running between the tackles. Robinson made things happen more often.

 

--The DL wasn't pressuring Dobbs much in the first half, but wow did they ever destroy the Cards in the second half. That was a beatdown.

 

--The secondary wasn't tested that much.

 

--Tress Way isn't making enough money, whatever his salary.

 

The problem of Week 1 is that you have zero context to help figure out what you just saw. The Cards may not be as bad as the predictions, or maybe it's going to be a loonnngg year for the Commanders. We just don't know yet. At least they won.

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Yeah I agree about the TE stuff. You gotta bench Thomas and go with Turner. He's so much quicker and more athletic. Neither can block worth a damn but what are you gonna do...

 

I think we effed up not taking a TE in a stacked TE draft class. Darnell Washington would have been a great fit. Sam La Porta looked real good in his debut with the Lions as well.

[NewCliche21]

LOL @ people trying to "call people out" for offseason talk that wasn't, "Yeah we got EB but we're still gonna suck." Especially to PLAYERS ON THE TEAM

You new to how social dynamics work?  FOH

Edited September 11, 2023 by NewCliche21

[Thinking Skins]

I'll just put a few things in here: 

I like the adjustments: 

 - I posted in the QB thread and on twitter about the chess match. I think that that the EB / Eagles DC going at one another has been underplayed. We had a second year QB who was in his second start. The media thought we would depend heavily on the run, so Eagles DC played run early, EB opened the offense up and the first half we had some drives that were just walking up and down the field. Unfortunatley they were not getting points. The one drive that did get points, the yards gained were gained by penalty (but one penalty by OPI through EB opening he offense).

  - - The first drive stalled because of Logan Thomas. (RPRPPPPP)

  - - The second drive was a TD. (PPRPRPRP)

  - - The third drive was the INT. (PPPP)

  - - The fourth drive stalled because of Gibson fumble. (RRPRPPPR)

  - - The fifth drive stalled because of a sack on third down (PPPP)

  - - The sixth drive stalled because of the sack fumble (PPPP)

  - - The seventh drive was the FG before the half (PPPPPP)

  - - The eigth drive stalled because of another third down sack (PRPRRPPP)

  - - The ninth drive stalled of a completion to Logan Thomas was short of the sticks (PPPP)

  - - The tenth drive was a TD run by Howell (RRRPRR)

  - - The eleventh drive was a 3 and out on a bad call (RRP)

  - - The twelth drive was a 3 and out to seal the game (RRR)

  - - The thirteenth drive was 4 and out to seal the game (RRRR)

 

 - I included those drive summaries because (to my knowledge nobody had done so already), and to show how the gameplan changed from EB trying to be "cute" with Howell to him being grind it out. There were three early drives where the plays were all passes (4 passes), showing that we got one first down but couldn't do more than that because their DL was teeing off on that. I can't say when this was really starting because Drive 2 they were going after Howell, but there was still balance in the playcalling. 

 

One thing I think about with EB, is the same thing I think about with Andy Reid, Reid coached OL in the West coast offense under the 49ers. EB coached Running backs. I have a feeling that their first love is not these high scoring 49 - 43 games. I think they want a Doc Walker 15 - 13 game. That's not today's rulebook type thing, though but yesterday's game with the rain and the young QB and everything else was making it out for EB to just lean on his running game and he did. And BRob didn;t let him down. Gibson did, but BRob didn't. 

[Skinsfan1311]

Don't care how, or who, as long as we get the W.

 

[DJHJR86]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

First of all that’s BS.  I was here all offseason, and while I believe the general consensus was absolutely - better than Scott Turner and likely the best Ron could do - I don’t recall many thinking we were good on talent and merely adding EB = Championship.

 

That’s you cherry picking and over embellishing for the sake of trying to have a gotcha moment for yourself.

 

You act as if this fanbase exists solely on this message board.  Skip ahead to page 50 or so.  There was so much more than "he's better than Scott Turner'" lmao.

 

[MartinC]

13 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

TE snap count yesterday: - Logan Thomas 58 (82%) - John Bates 26 (37%) - Cole Turner 10 (14%)

Turner needs more snaps - if only for us to see what we really have there. I suspect his blocking (or lack thereof) is what keeps him off the field.

[Koolblue13]

22 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Im OK with pass heavy play calling when a lot of those passes were short quick game throws that really just replace run calls. But I agree we got away from the run too much in the first half in particular.
 

Our long run was only 6 or 7 yards so the run game was not exactly firing but when we committed to it late we were moving the chains. I’m afraid we need to lean more on the run game if for no other reason it will cover up some of the pass pro issues - run more and use play action more would seem obvious adjustments.

As soon as the game started, they went into cover three and just sat guys in coverage, so we couldn't make any plays down field. 

 

They basically played our game, but with a LBer that you can just unleash to go get ball.

 

We should have started to pound the rock in the 1rst to draw that coverage in, kill some clock and establish a rhythm.

 

I agree the short quick passes could have worked, but we needed to pull their coverage and set up the PAP and we didn't.

 

It felt like the game plan was to blow them out and fore our game on them and it didn't work almost immediately. 

 

Hopefully EB takes a long hard look at his GP and calms the heck down.