Death of a Fanbase

[Chris 44]

12 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I'm going to sound like a condescending coastal elitist prick for saying this, and maybe I am - okay I definitely am. But if you live in Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo, there just isn't much to do or write home about. So to those people, sports fandom makes up a way bigger part of their identities. It's not just a hobby to them; it's part of who they are. For example, I'd bet there are more female fans of those teams not because the women in those cities care more about football per se, but because to be a Clevelander is to be a Browns fan or to be a Buffalo native is to be in the Bills Mafia.

 

Places like Washington DC are full of culture and entertainment and career opportunities and other ways to occupy one's time or define one's identity. I mean I just look at myself. I'm a huge sports fan to the point where I post on a WFT message board and a Caps message board, but when the teams lose, it's easy for me to disconnect. I used to work in finance, now I work in Hollywood, I live in LA, there's so much going on around me that it's really easy to just do and think about other stuff. If I lived in Cleveland? Probably not so easy. Not trying to offend anyone, just my $0.02 about your question.

Having grown up in England in the 70's I can see this point of view. Maybe its different now but back then life evolved around the pub and the local football club. Wasn't much else going on, not much opportunity, labor strife etc. The local team was pretty much what people focused on, the hard core soccer hooligan was the epitome of this.

[Commander PK]

11 hours ago, hail2skins said:

I looked at Wikipedia and it seemed like it took roughly 18 months for FedEx to be built, while it took M&T 26 months. Yes, M&T is certainly in a better location, but you wonder if that extra eight months could've made a difference with FedEx. Oh, if I'm not mistaken, M&T had jumbotrons when it opened in 1998. The excuse making for why it took a dozen years for them to be included at FedEx.......smh.

 

When I was looking at Wiki, they have a picture of the crowd at FedEx in October 2003, during Steve friggin Spurrier.  We got housed by the SB champ Bucs that day. But look at the place. Packed house on all levels, including 29 rows in the 400s, and I don't see a lot of Tampa jerseys in the lower bowl like you'll see in a few weeks. Just crazy how far its fallen.

 

 

 

I agree, there were a lot of technological advances made in the late 90's early 00's.  Fed Ex was built at a time right before all these things really started picking up.  Bottom line, JKC wanted the place built before he passed on, and he could have never conceived of a time that the Washington Redskins would not have been a big enough draw on their own.  I doubt he would believe that it's been 20 years of mostly futility.  I say it all the time, but this team was setting NFL single game attendance records in the Gibbs 2 era.  I was present for the 2005 Sunday Night beat down of Dallas.  The place was electric.  The potential is still there, but I don't think there is any question the fanbase is as apathetic right now as it has ever been.  Even in the 1946 - 1970 era of suckage...people were still attending the games.    

 

I didn't really start to notice the major decline in game attendance until the Gruden era.  I think the RG3/Shanahan debacle is really when things started to take a significant downturn.  We took some pretty significant beat downs in primetime games as well over the last 10 years at home also.  There are so many negative things that have brought us to where we are now.       

One of the biggest things is that we all believed that eventually things would just HAVE to turn around.  The fanbase has been burned so many times before many people just don't believe it will anymore, or they are at a SHOW ME don't tell me point.  Any kind of sustained success and things will pick up, but it's not going to happen overnight.  

[profusion]

5 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

I agree, there were a lot of technological advances made in the late 90's early 00's.  Fed Ex was built at a time right before all these things really started picking up.  Bottom line, JKC wanted the place built before he passed on, and he could have never conceived of a time that the Washington Redskins would not have been a big enough draw on their own.  I doubt he would believe that it's been 20 years of mostly futility.  I say it all the time, but this team was setting NFL single game attendance records in the Gibbs 2 era.  I was present for the 2005 Sunday Night beat down of Dallas.  The place was electric.  The potential is still there, but I don't think there is any question the fanbase is as apathetic right now as it has ever been.  Even in the 1946 - 1970 era of suckage...people were still attending the games.    

 

Cooke also paid for the stadium himself, whereas the good citizens of Maryland paid for the bulk of M&T. Meaning that the Ravens apparently felt willing to go deluxe with it on someone else's dime.

 

It's a shame that Cooke cut some corners on the design, but Dan managed to make it worse. JKC Stadium opened with 76,000 seats in 1997, which is not out of line for an NFL stadium. Snyder managed to cram another 15,000 seats in there and make it miserable--trying to hold as many as a college stadium but with narrow seats rather than bleachers. It was a horrible experience being crowded in there like that.

 

Doesn't seem like Snyder went deluxe on the maintenance over the years, either. It looked shoddy and rundown the last time I was there about seven years ago.

[CRobi21]

Attendance numbers backing up @BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[hail2skins]

Surprises on the list are supposed hard-core Pittsburgh averaging under 90 percent capacity so far and the Raiders in the low 90s in the first season fans are allowed in a new stadium in Vegas.

 

Lazy editing not to differentiate between the two LA teams (I assume the higher number is for the Rams?)

[Idaho fan]

At some point we have to ask why we are even a fan of this team... If you live in the area maybe there isn't a choice.  Though the Ravens aren't far... Ive just been a life long fan but I live in Idaho so why... 

 

Its not just the poor product (though thats a large slice of the pie), the ownership and franchise in general is an embarrassment.  FedEx is a dump that produces new levels of disgust every year.  This team now wears the crown of having a home field with the lowest attendance.  Why do we continue to care about this team?  

 

Only answer I can come up with is the history and memories that those of us in our mid/late 40s+ have.  That and I don't understand the process of changing teams as a fan.  If I moved to Wisconsin or Arizona etc. perhaps it would make sense or be easier.... Changing teams feels dirty and taboo.  Feels like infidelity.   But damn... I love football.  Is asking for a team that isn't a laughing stock year after year too much?  Is wanting an owner and front office that doesn't include low life's to much to ask?  Im still dissappointed that the name is being changed so maybe once the new name is announced (Commanders or Presidents or whatever other complete embarrassment that ends up being) that will allow for a clean beak.

 

Just venting here.  I know I can't change teams, just like I know Ill always probably be embarrassed by my fandom for this team. I see no options.  My wife hates the WFT, not because she is a fan of another team but because she knows I care about this franchise more than it deserves.  So.. why are we a fan of this team?  I have no answer.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Idaho fan

[my_friend_goo]

Those attendance numbers are a bit misleading, as it's % of total capacity. Look at average attendance and it's a totally different story. So "how far back" isn't truly representative when you compare year on year and vs other attendance considering on a typical year a larger proportion of teams are sub 100% rather than above and many of those have substantially lower attendance in absolute numbers. The numbers don't take into consideration what proportion of the crowd is for the away team though.

 

What is stark though is attendance this year has plummeted compared to pre-covid.

 

I'm not denying the situation is dire, just to be clear, but it's not entirely as being made out.

Edited October 13, 2021 by my_friend_goo

[ananoman]

54 minutes ago, my_friend_goo said:

Those attendance numbers are a bit misleading, as it's % of total capacity. Look at average attendance and it's a totally different story. So "how far back" isn't truly representative when you compare year on year and vs other attendance considering on a typical year a larger proportion of teams are sub 100% rather than above and many of those have substantially lower attendance in absolute numbers. The numbers don't take into consideration what proportion of the crowd is for the away team though.

 

What is stark though is attendance this year has plummeted compared to pre-covid.

 

I'm not denying the situation is dire, just to be clear, but it's not entirely as being made out.

I love how people take negative statements about the WFT and spin them so that it isn't as bad as reported.....as if this wreck of a franchise needs or deserves anyone coming to their defense and standing up for them.

Edited October 13, 2021 by ananoman

[hail2skins]

The way attendance is recorded has been inconsistent as well. In the past they would record it by tickets sold instead of by the turnstile count, and wouldn't account for the no-shows.  I went to the Cowboys game in 2018 and the attendance is listed as 66K, and from being there I thought the stadium was about at capacity. I was not there the next season, but the attendance for the 2019 is listed as 75K. From being there in 2018, I find it hard to believe that there were 9K more people there than the previous year.

 

I haven't been to a game since 2018, but from attending tons before then and from what I've seen on the TV shots, the 50K they are currently citing looks about right.  I think the Skins not selling to brokers in 2018 hurt attendance. Prior to that, upper deck seats for the teens and club seats for $50 and under were common, and people were likely to purchase tickets at the spur of the moment at those levels.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by hail2skins

[CobraCommander]

Anybody with eyes can see the stadium is  half empty. I’ve watched plenty of other games and other stadiums don’t look empty like that. Hell if it weren’t for opposing fans and fans of other teams there would be a fraction of what we see on TV. 

[TK]

On 10/12/2021 at 4:30 PM, Spaceman Spiff said:

And not to be too melodramatic but I'm becoming a dad here in a couple months and I spent part of last Sunday afternoon wondering if I'd ever want to take my son to a game. 

Congrats. You naming him Calvin or Hobbs?  

[Renegade7]

@Spaceman Spiff congrats on the kiddo, and yes you should take him.

 

 

  I can't wait to take my daughter so we can yell at them together whether they can hear us or not because it feels good to jus unload on them and the opposing team in way sitting on my couch doesn't do justice. 

 

Of course be mindful of the first game, mine was Gibbs first year back against the Vikings, my dad took me.  The bonding alone was worth it.

 

It will be a while before he understands all the scandals the come around like clockwork, so in the early years its jus teaching the game and the fellow comrades at the game.  Get lower section, the upper deck is too spread out these days, I remember having almost an entire row to myself when I went to go see us play the Jets not too long ago.

 

We are going to get a new stadium at some point, I dont know if we ever will be a consistent winner, but we won't be stuck with FedEx forever.

[kleese]

4 hours ago, Idaho fan said:

At some point we have to ask why we are even a fan of this team... If you live in the area maybe there isn't a choice.  Though the Ravens aren't far... Ive just been a life long fan but I live in Idaho so why... 

 

Its not just the poor product (thought thats a large slice of the pie), the ownership and franchise in general is an embarrassment.  FedEx is a dump that produces new levels of disgust every year.  This team now wears the crown of having a home field with the lowest attendance.  Why do we continue to care about this team?  

 

Only answer I can come up with is the history and memories that those of us in our mid/late 40s+ have.  That and I don't understand the process of changing teams as a fan.  If I moved to Wisconsin or Arizona etc. perhaps it would make sense or be easier.... Changing teams feels dirty and taboo.  Feels like infidelity.   But damn... I love football.  Is asking for a team that isn't a laughing stock year after year too much?  Is wanting an owner and front office that doesn't include low lifes be to much to ask?  Im still dissappointed that the name is being changed so maybe once the new name is announced (Commanders or Presidents or whatever other complete embarrassment that ends up being) that will allow for a clean beak.

 

Just venting here.  I know I can't change teams, just like I know Ill always probably be embarrassed by my fandom for this team. I see no options.  My wife hates the WFT, not because she is a fan of another team but because she knows I care about this franchise more than it deserves.  So.. why are we a fan of this team?  I have no answer.

My theory is that there really aren’t that many of us— I’m talking the true, nitty gritty, message board regular, emotionally attached, die hard fans. That goes for ALL teams. I think the majority of fans of every single team are more on the casual side— it’s something fun and communal they enjoy. And in the seasons or stretches of seasons where the team isn’t competitive, they can tune out fairly easily and tune back in. 
 

The die hards chose to be that way, from what I believe is a very deep and psychological desire to be part of a team. Most of the fans that I’ve met that I consider to be “like me” are uber competitive and strongly value some older school ideals like loyalty, common cause, etc. I also think their is an understanding (maybe subconscious) that you can only achieve the thrill of fully enjoying the 1991 team if you also make yourself vulnerable to the bad outcomes. For me, it’s like my version of an adrenaline rush. Some people ride rollercoasters or jump out of planes or day trade. The action keeps them coming. For me, the “action” is attaching myself to the outcome of specific sports teams. It gives me a thrill outside of my day to day life that I don’t get anywhere else. I enjoy not knowing what will happen and starting a Gameday understanding that something out of my control is going to dictate how I feel. I know I will feel better with a win and worse with a loss— and the build up to that and the actual game experience is essentially an adrenaline rush chasing one of those two outcomes. 
 

So I know if I give it up, I’ll give up the pain, frustration, and disappointment that comes with the losing. But I’ll also give up the thrill and hope and adrenaline that comes with the winning- or at the very least— the hope of winning. And every time I picture that, it feels boring to me. Not something I want. I do my day to day stuff all the other days. I don’t want Sundays to become another day or errands and not getting too up or too down about anything. I want the rush. 
 

If I felt I could just switch teams and have it be the same, I obviously would have done that long ago. Problem is, in one form or another, I’ve always hated the other 31 teams in the league— because they were all the enemy at one point or another. In no way could I ever root for one of them. MAYBE if the league expanded again there would be a possibility there. But I doubt it. My pain from this franchise started in the Norv years, pre-Snyder. I’m in for the long haul now and determined to see it through. I just try and focus Sunday to Sunday. Hope this Sunday they do something that makes me happy. Move on to the next one. 
 

I still have a ton of fun with it and accept my role as a die hard fan caught up in the whirlwind of a dysfunctional franchise. Maybe even a small part of me takes pride in that. Stubborn, competitive, not wanting to quit.  
 

 

[Commander PK]

4 hours ago, Idaho fan said:

At some point we have to ask why we are even a fan of this team... Why do we continue to care about this team?  

 

Only answer I can come up with is the history and memories that those of us in our mid/late 40s+ have.   I have no answer.

 

I have an easy answer to this question.  I am still a fan because a 7 year old boy watched this Super Bowl play live with his family in his living room nearly 40 years ago.  I had never seen adults so overcome with joy in my life.  I was hooked from that point forward.  Despite my complaining and griping I have faith hope that one day we will get to see something like this again.  

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Painkiller
hope not faith, like kleese

[kleese]

8 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

I have an easy answer to this question.  I am still a fan because a 7 year old boy watched this Super Bowl play live with his family in his living room nearly 40 years ago.  I had never seen adults so overcome with joy in my life.  I was hooked from that point forward.  Despite my complaining and griping I have faith that one day we will get to see something like this again.  

 

 

For me it’s not so much faith we can see that again, but hope. Honestly, my faith in the organization is pretty shot. That said, I’ll never give up hope— either that A) we luck into something that allows us to overcome even with Snyder or B- someday Snyder either sells or takes such a backseat to someone else (his son perhaps) and that person handles it better. Either way, I’ve decided I’ll continue to chase it— I guess until die. And along the way, I won’t be miserable. I’ll do my part to make sure I enjoy the experience— and i won’t let them totally ruin it for me. My son is 9 and this is his first year getting into it. We’ve had fun. I’ve explained to him that it’s not easy being a WFT fan and he almost seems to like the challenge of it. I mean ultimately I guess it’s about the personal memories anyway. We’ve enjoyed watching the games out on our deck together so far this year— had some exciting moments in our two wins. I figure why allow myself to get SO jaded that I deprive myself of that? 

[Commander PK]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

so it's basically as you would expect.  Joe Gibbs 2nd retirement in 2007 led to a massive drop off in enthusiasm for the maroon and black from which we have never really recovered.

 

There were a couple spikes in the Zorn/Shanahan years, (RG3), Rock Bottom during the Gruden years, with the exception of 2016...I'm sure due to excitement over a playoff NFC East Champion potentially going even further.  The bottom of Rock Bottom in 2018, and 2019, and then the 7th level of Hell in 2021.    

[SoCalSkins]

44 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

so it's basically as you would expect.  Joe Gibbs 2nd retirement in 2007 led to a massive drop off in enthusiasm for the maroon and black from which we have never really recovered.

 

There were a couple spikes in the Zorn/Shanahan years, (RG3), Rock Bottom during the Gruden years, with the exception of 2016...I'm sure due to excitement over a playoff NFC East Champion potentially going even further.  The bottom of Rock Bottom in 2018, and 2019, and then the 7th level of Hell in 2021.    

I think 2012 was the hardest. Best year since 1991 as a fan then complete devastation. Rookie QBs are only supposed to get better. I think that whole situation made every die hard fan far more bitter. We allowed ourselves to hope out loud that the bad times were finally history then got our hearts torn out Indiana Jones style immediately after we started to believe again. 
 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by SoCalSkins

[Commander PK]

9 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

I think 2012 was the hardest. Best year since 1991 as a fan then complete devastation. Rookie QBs are only supposed to get better. I think that whole situation made every die hard fan far more bitter. We allowed ourselves to hope out loud that the bad times were finally history then got our hearts torn out Indiana Jones style immediately after we started to believe again. 
 

 

For me there are a few years that really stand out.  2000 with Norv. In 1999 I really thought we might go all the way.  After demolishing Detroit in the playoffs we get eliminated in a heart breaking nail biter loss by Tampa Bay.  Trading out eventual Super Bowl Champ Brad Johnson for Jeff George in the off season was one of the very early mistakes of the Snyder era.  2000 was a huge let down.  Bye Norv.  
 

2005 played out very similar.  There was no hotter team in December 2005 than Washington.  I felt going into the playoffs they might legitimately make a run for the Lombardi.  All of a sudden the offense can’t score to save their lives in the playoffs.  2006 here comes Al Saunders with a 700 page playbook and we supposedly had the problem fixed.  2006…another massive let down.  The Al Saunders offense I believe screwed up the chemistry of the team.  
 

2007, the death of Sean, another improbable run into the playoffs only to lose to Seattle again.  Joe Gibbs retired.  Zorn starts out 2008 6-2, and some of us started believing…then Pittsburgh crushed that on Monday night.  All down hill from there.
 

2012 is magical until a knee injury to RG3 in the playoffs turns that game (and everything that was going great) into utter **** overnight.  2013 is a debacle.  
 

2016, again no sustained success after a promising 2015.  
 

2020, the beloved brand is finally put to bed, but the team rallies and wins the Division during a pandemic.  Strangest time I can ever remember. 2021…here we are again.  Lot of ball left to be played, but repeating as NFC East champs looks highly unlikely right now.     

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, Painkiller said:

For me there are a few years that really stand out.  2000 with Norv. In 1999 I really thought we might go all the way.  After demolishing Detroit in the playoffs we get eliminated in a heart breaking nail biter loss by Tampa Bay.  Trading out eventual Super Bowl Champ Brad Johnson for Jeff George in the off season was one of the very early mistakes of the Snyder era.  2000 was a huge let down.  Bye Norv.  
 

2005 played out very similar.  There was no hotter team in December 2005 than Washington.  I felt going into the playoffs they might legitimately make a run for the Lombardi.  All of a sudden the offense can’t score to save their lives in the playoffs.  2006 here comes Al Saunders with a 700 page playbook and we supposedly had the problem fixed.  2006…another massive let down.  The Al Saunders offense I believe screwed up the chemistry of the team.  
 

2007, the death of Sean, another improbable run into the playoffs only to lose to Seattle again.  Joe Gibbs retired.  Zorn starts out 2008 6-2, and some of us started believing…then Pittsburgh crushed that on Monday night.  All down hill from there.
 

2012 is magical until a knee injury to RG3 in the playoffs turns that game (and everything that was going great) into utter **** overnight.  2013 is a debacle.  
 

2016, again no sustained success after a promising 2015.  
 

2020, the beloved brand is finally put to bed, but the team rallies and wins the Division during a pandemic.  Strangest time I can ever remember. 2021…here we are again.  Lot of ball left to be played, but repeating as NFC East champs looks highly unlikely right now.     

After we won the division in 1999 we had brad Johnson, 2 first round picks from the Sean Gilbert free agent signing by Carolina. We had just fleeced Ditka and still got Champ Bailey. We had more cap room than anyone and were poised for a decade of dominance. Enter Dan Snyder…

 

2005 Brunell had the least passing yards ever in a playoff win. The offense wasn’t moving dude. Al Saunders was legit ahead of his time for years. What Andy Reid and McVay are now.

 

2007 proved with a decent QB Al Saunders offense would have been dominant. The biggest mistake in franchise history was drafting Carlos Rogers and Jason Campbell instead of Aaron Rodgers. That cost Gibbs at least 2 more rings and what would have solidified him as the greatest coach of all time.

I hated Zorn from day 1. Absolutely hated the dude. I almost got banned here because I hated him so much. Continuation of sunk cost fallacy with Jason Campbell.

 

The rest you are spot on.
 

 

[Dark Acre]

Look on the bright side, Caps crushed Rangers 5-1 to open the season.  Happy days are here again!

[CapsSkins]

16 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Look on the bright side, Caps crushed Rangers 5-1 to open the season.  Happy days are here again!

 

So funny, I was just gonna come to this thread to post about this. First game of the season: Ovechkin scores twice to move ahead of Marcel Dionne for sole possession of 5th place on the NHL *all-time* goal scoring list, young centerman 19-year old Hendrix Lapierre scores in his first ever NHL game, the Caps steamroll the Rangers 5-1 in what was billed as a "rivalry game", and Capital One Arena was packed to the brim and electric cheering on all the action.

 

Just a night and day difference from the WFT. First-ballot Hall of Famer and one of the Mt. Rushmore of DC sports athletes leading a team that won a championship recently in a city that loves them. Really encourage you all to get into hockey if you aren't already. The Caps provide all the joy that the WFT doesn't.  

[Dark Acre]

27 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Just a night and day difference from the WFT. First-ballot Hall of Famer and one of the Mt. Rushmore of DC sports athletes leading a team that won a championship recently in a city that loves them. Really encourage you all to get into hockey if you aren't already. The Caps provide all the joy that the WFT doesn't.  

I began my Caps fandom in the 80-81 season.  Talk about bleak.  The Skins were 6-10 in '80 as well.  I think the best thing about 1980 was getting a bunch of D&D stuff for my birthday.  From 82 on, both the Skins and the Caps were very good teams, but only the Skins finished.  Now, the WFT exists to torment us existentially for the rest of eternity (or until some supernatural force divests Snyder of ownership).

[petey hodge]

as far as the drop off between Pre-Covid and today... the name change must've had an impact on a few fans.  Talk about killing our identity and traditions.  WTF is the point anymore.

 

Now imagine if The Prince of Dimness selects a ridiculous mascot name like the Presidents and goes with a new color scheme (think the Crutchfield catalog on the TV pages) without the B&G (or M & B), how many of us would continue to stick it out?  Me thinks that would wipe out another percentage of us holding on...

 

 

We're still all holding on... right?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

4 hours ago, Painkiller said:

Despite my complaining and griping I have faith hope that one day we will get to see something like this again.