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About kleese

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    The Free Agent
  • Birthday 09/13/1977

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    Oklahoma City, OK

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  1. kleese

    1990: 30 Years Since The Season Before Super

    Good thread. While my memories of the Redskins/NFL date back to around 1982.1983 and I have pretty strong recall of the 86/87 seasons, 1990 was probably the first year my memory is TRULY game by game. Not coincidentally, 1990 (when I was 13) was the year someone told me there was a place that had satellite dishes where you can see all the games. I had been pretty lucky in the 80's that a lot of Redskins games were on national TV or shown locally, but if they weren't... the in-game updates was your only recourse. Well, the first game I ever saw via satellite was Redskins-Dolphins in 1990 at Outback Sports Cafe. I would watch every non-local game for the rest of the decade at a sports bar until the 1999 season when I got Sunday Ticket myself, which I've had ever since. I agree that 1990 was a fun season; after two years of missing playoffs I remember there being some urgency in 1990. I am pretty sure 1990 was also the first year of the extra Wild Card teams-- and the first year you had two games Sat/two games Sun on wild card weekend. We played the early Saturday game which at the time started really early (11:30 central where I was). This remains one of the most gratifying wins in my history as a fan. That Body Bag game on MNF that year was brutal. I was so mad/disappointed. Gotta remember back then MNF was THE must-see sports event of the week. Just huge. And we got annihilated and embarrassed that night-- not typical for a Gibbs team. To get such great revenge right back at The Vet was awesome. Our D was incredible that game. The loss at SF next week wasn't all that painful to me. I didn't have super high hopes going into that one-- 49ers were just better. We had our chances, but it slipped away. I do remember feeling encouraged overall though. The loss at SF in the same round two years later would be the one that sticks with me to this day. That loss to Indy was another one that sticks out... it was played on a Saturday Night; Monday was Christmas Eve so I assume we played that game Sat in place of a Monday Night game for that week. I remember I wasn't feeling 100% and I did something I never did/do-- I started to doze off during the game. We took an 11 point lead and I think I was comfortable with that so I let myself drift off; from there I have these weird vague memories and waking up in and out of sleep and seeing the Colts come back. I do distinctly remember waking up with the score tied just in time to see the Colts get the Pick 6 that won the game for them. I went to bed that night all bewildered that we'd lost. Although I'm pretty sure we had either clinched a playoff spot or would clinch it with results from the next day because our final game vs Buffalo was meaningless as we were already slotted in our spot. I do think the Colts loss cost us home field in the wild card game though.
  2. My most unpopular opinion over the years on ES (and there are a lot of them) is that while Snyder had undoubtedly been a bad owner over his tenure, he is not a HOPELESS owner. I’ve always thought that he means well. People have taken his failures as a sign of him being sinister; I’ve always thought he much just be bad at it— and probably guilty of insulating himself to a point where he isn’t really in touch with WHY people are upset with him. I guess over the years I’ve “defended” Snyder— at least when it comes to what I believe makes him tick. I’ve alwqys felt he could do well and wouldn’t necessarily screw things up if he could only sort of luck into the right mix first. That’s what I hope is happening now.
  3. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    I'm really indifferent on this issue personally, but I do think you are overlooking the point of the retort to your post: While winning games doesn't have "meaning" in terms of accomplishing anything specific for the 2019 season, it could very well be an indication of what the team needs or doesn't need. For example, let's say after the Jets game they just continued to get trucked and look awful and finish 1-15. They would get a top 2 pick and that certainly has value. The #1 pick has more value than the #2 and the #2 has more value than the #3 and so on and so forth. I don't think anyone disputes that. However, if they go 1-15 it is also likely an indication that the players we have now are even worse than we thought. Probably including the QB. So if they keep losing it likely means Haskins is REALLY bad and also suffering some damage from the mounting losses... which could very well translate into needing to draft a QB with your top pick. Whereas, if they end strong, it is possibly an indication that the team needs aren't as desperate as we thought and perhaps there is more to build around. So the question then could become something like this: Would you rather have the #2 pick and feel like you need to use it on a QB or have the #6 pick and feel like you are set at QB? Can use that same logic for other positions as well. I know for me, if the Redskins end these final four games looking similar to how we looked last week, it will change my outlook quite a bit-- and also what I think we need. Let's say Haskins, the young WRs, Flowers, Guice, etc. al end really strong-- well then suddenly I'm changing my tune a bit on what we need. If they all crap the bed and we get curb-stopped? Well, now that changes the list of needs. It's not just winning, it's HOW they win. Last week was cool to watch because it was led almost exclusively by young players and players we HOPE can be a part of the future. The more success those guys have, the better our odds become at building around them. So, for me personally, no I won't derive a significant more amount of satisfaction from going 5-11 as opposed to 1-15, but I do think there is some potential value for the long term in terms of what that difference would indicate.
  4. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    And this only works if you get non-Redskins fans to stop watching too. 100% of Redskins fans could tune out starting now and no one would really feel it. There would be a dip in locals ratings, but local ratings don’t mean much. Redskins-Eagles is still going to draw the eyeballs and attention of Eagles fans nationwide AND gamblers, fansty football participants, etc. Heck, gambling only accounts for probably 50% of viewership and those viewers don’t care about the state of any particular team. There is no tangible or viable way for the fans to actually “hurt” Snyder financially. There is a reason the team value has skyrocketed during his ownership— and it obviously has nothing to do with on field results or fan support. If it makes fans feel better to withhold their dollars and attention that’s fine. It makes sense. But it has no actual effect on Dan... at all. The only thing that DOES have effect is hoping that Dan still cares enough that he is capable of being personally embarrassed/upset and tries to make the changes the fans want. That’s the only way any sort of “protest” would work— causing him to take action due to understanding what his customers want as opposed to taking action out of fear of lost profits. He might be a recluse and he might be delusional, but he isn’t blind. I mean he sees the stadium on Sunday just like we do. He has to have at least some inkling that the fans are not pleased. Sounds like he is very insulated, but unless he’s just totally lost his marbles I’m sure he understands that his customers aren’t currently pleased with the product.
  5. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    I know myself well enough to know this: if I ever stopped caring, I’d never be able to start again— no matter what. It wouldn’t be the same to me. So I stay fully dialed in knowing that in the off chance they get it right before I die that it will at least feel great.
  6. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    This system was established in the NFL 50+ years ago. It hasn’t changed. It’s always been this way and is a major reason the Green Bay Packers have been able to compete on an equal playing field with the New York Giants. The NFL is set up (and always has been) for individual teams to succeed despite themselves.
  7. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    Yes, he can. Not only can he pay the bills w/o our money, he can still turn a profit. Revenue sharing is the lifeblood of an NFL team. Remember that every time someone watches Eagles-Cowboys or buys an Aaron Rodgers jersey, it is benefiting Snyder too.
  8. kleese

    Season Ticket Holders Mutiny

    This isn’t true. I wish it was because there would be a better chance for a change. Snyder is a life long die hard fan. This is a major rarity in sports ownership. Most owners did not grow up loving the team they eventual own, they made the purchase out of opportunity. The Redskins are a passion for Dan. Obviously, like all business owners, money matters too. But the financial structure of the NFL totally protects bad owners from themselves. The revenue sharing is so vast that you can basically do everything wrong and still get rewarded. They dropped the TV blackout rule several years ago by the way... aarendance and ticket sales are a drop in the bucket for these teams. Barely makes a dent. The massive TV revenue is what fuels it. And that is split evenly, and merchandising is also redistributed. So even if no one watches Redskins-Dolphins tomorrow, it doesn’t matter. Those owners will still get paid on the backs of the overall success of the league. Now, an empty stadium or a stadium filled with opposing fans can be embarrassing for sure. But we’ve seen this consistently for well over a deacde now and it really hasn’t seemed to make much of a difference. In other words, there really are very few ways fans can “hit” Snyder in the wallet.
  9. Right but it’s their own content. They more or less HAVE to post Redskins-related items. No sense to me in posting a “congrats Nats” post that will 100% be turned away from congratulating the Nats. And if I’m the Nats, I’d probably prefer to just keep my distance from the Redskins anyway.
  10. The Redskins absolutely should NOT be tweeting out anything right now. If they do, the comments section will turn into a disaster the minute they do it and any good they intended will be long forgotten. If I’m the social media manager for the team currently I am laying as low as humanely possible.
  11. kleese

    The day it all went south: November 5, 2000

    From 1993-1998 we went: 4-12 3-13 6-10 9-7 8-7-1 6-10 That last one (1998) started off 0-7. That was Norv’s fifth season and we never made the playoffs and then regressed from being just average. Total failure at that juncture. The only reason Norv didn’t get fired was because the ownership deal was held up for so long. Then 1999 comes around and we get some good luck. That team wasn’t all that great, but the division/conference was super weak that year—- TWO 8-8 teams made the playoffs in the NFC and we went 10-6 while managing not to be a team over .500 all season long (until last game of year when both us and Dolphins rested everyone). We beat a terrible Lions team in the playoffs; we wound up in Tampa sort of just by skating along and finally not blowing games to teams we should beat. It was clearly Norv’s finest hour. But of course we DID manage to blow that game in pretty memorable/heartbreaking fashion. No doubt I’d take a repeat of a “lucky” 1999 season one thousand times over right now... but that season was probably more of the sun shining on a dogs rear more so than anything truly substantial. Snyder took over a situation that wasn’t very good— AT BEST in flux and struggling. He then proceeded to make it worse and has never been able to figure out how to fix it.
  12. kleese

    The day it all went south: November 5, 2000

    I would ascribe probably 90-95% of our current state directly to Snyder, leaving a 5-10% gap for the stadium design/location itself and some bad luck such as your best player in 25 years being murdered in the middle of a season, the Mara cap penalty, various major injuries, etc. My point in going so far back was to illustrate the history of the organization really isn’t THAT strong. And to be perfectly honest, the only sustained glory we’ve had was during the Beathard/Gibbs pocket where JKC struck gold. Credit to JKC for not getting in the way and screwing that up. But he was also fortunate to be around when he was— he probably wouldn’t last a year in the NFL now with his various shenanigans, comments, etc. And specifically I think it’s inpoetsnt to note that when Snyder took over in 1999, things were NOT going well AT ALL. He wasn’t tasked with not messing us up— he was tasked with fixing us. Obviously, he has failed miserably at that task.
  13. kleese

    The day it all went south: November 5, 2000

    When it comes to looking back at the past 25 years, the drum I've always banged is that I think too many people forget the PRE-Snyder misery of 1993-1998. That's six full seasons before any of us even knew who Snyder was. Now, I don't say any of this to absolve Snyder-- he's had 20 years-- clearly if he knew what he was doing, he would have figured it out by now. There is absolutely no other way to categorize his ownership as anything other than a complete and utter failure. However, in terms of ruining the "rich history" of the Redskins, I gotta say, I think there is some revisionist stuff in there. First of all, from the mid 1940's through the very end of the 1960's the Redskins were one of the worst franchises in the NFL. And the had an owner that was a fairly open racist/bigot even for the time. Things started to change in 1969, when Vince Lombardi came on board and (probably not coincidentally) George Preston Marshall passed away. The Redskins then went on a 20-ish year run of great times for the fans. The 70's were good/enjoyable and then the 80's/very early 90's were magnificent. Of course we all know what happened after. But the reality is that for the last 75 years of Redskins football, well over 50 of them have been lousy and marked by poor/embarrassing ownership. We had on glorious stretch. And if you are of a certain age (somewhere in the neighborhood of fans that are currently 40-55 years old) you "grew up" with the Redskins as a model organization. If you are older than that you experienced both ends of the misery. If you are younger, you've only seen the latest era of dysfunction. But I just can't forget 1993-1998 and the terrible mistakes were made that helped us down this path. Those years (especially 1995-1998) remain my most painful memories as a Redskin fan. This is due in part to the fact that I was not yet EXPECTING misery and still had real hope of winning big. Now, I am content with a 9-7 season where we kinda, sorta compete. But those amazing ways we found to lose games in those mid 90's seasons were just devastating at the time. Beyond the losses, Jack Kent Cooke made some pretty bad choices in his final years. Obviously, the way he left the team in his will remains curious and crippled us in the late 90's and ultimately led to an "outsider" being able to purchase the team. He was also a MAJOR champion for both Charley Casserly and Norv Turner-- a truly disastrous duo. And he was also the man behind the move to Raljon/Landover and leaving DC. They built a stadium that trended exactly the opposite of how stadiums would be built (city center, aesthetically pleasing, convenient) in the coming years. You can blame Snyder for a lot of things, but the location of the stadium, the design of the stadium, the amenities in the area around the stadium... none of that is on him. Please understand again, that in no way should this be taken as a "defense" of Snyder. He's really, really bad at this. But he didn't get us here completely by himself.
  14. kleese

    The day it all went south: November 5, 2000

    This is half true. The ole’ college try actually doesn’t matter to me. The only thing I feel the Redskins “owe” me is to play the games as they are scheduled. From there it’s up to me to support, ignore, enjoy, discard, etc. At this point, anyone who claims they were “duped” or fooled into being excited... well, I don’t know what to tell you. Since 1993 I’d rank the Redskins AT BEST as the number 27th franchise in the NFL in terms of enjoyment given to fans. Browns, Bills, Bengals, Dolphins, Lions all in the bottom mix. You could rank the Redskins anywhere in there and I wouldn’t argue. But have I “enjoyed” it? Yes. It would probably take a long psychological profile to explain it, but this is ultimately a leisure activity and if I spend 25+ years pursuing a leisure activity that brings me no enjoyment, well, that’s really, really weird/sad. As for the premise of the thread. I do think the roots of our fall into the abyss began in earnest in 2000. That was a legitimately good team that just screwed it all up. Had some mix of bad luck too, but that roster wa solid. Snyder got a lot of grief for the off season spending spree, but most of it was on D and the team got WAY better on that side of the ball in 2000. The issue was that the offense regressed. Johnson wasn’t nearly as effective (and really he started to slide off as 1999 went on), Westbrook got hurt, and our kicking game was a mess. No doubt that Arizona game was a killer. But bouncing back to beat the Rams I felt at the time erased that loss. They were still in a good spot at 7-4. Basically just don’t lose BOTH home games to Eagles/Giants the next two weeks and they probably at least get a wild card. Well, they did lose both of course (by a total of five points). I’ll never forget the look on Norv’s face when he sent Eddie Murray out there to kick that last FG against the Giants. He knew, I knew it, Eddie knew it, everyone knew it. He had NO chance to make it. Yet Norv did it anyway despite the fact that the fourth down was makable.
  15. kleese

    Erosion Of The Redskins Fanbase

    Nothing has changed for me. Still the same since the early 80s in terms of tuning in and being locked in each week. It’s a conscious choice and I still enjoy the routine and being a fan. I like chasing the good moments even as those “moments” become much more fleeting. Even just last year we had that win over Dallas which was really fun and enjoyable. It’s also a MAJOR stretch if that’s the high point of a season or even of a couple of seasons. I get that. But for me personally I don’t feel I’ll be able to enjoy the rare good days if I’m not locked in for the bad ones too. But I understand that I’m rare. The fan base isn’t dying. It’s dead. Truth is we were never probably as strong of a fan base as somewhere like Buffalo or Cleveland— two other franchises that have been MISERABLE but have maintained strong fan interest/numbers. Its over. They missed a generation that they won’t get back. And if your’re a lifer that has called it quits they probably won’t get you back either— it’s sort of a hard line to cross back over. So they maintain a small % of fans like me who are lifelong die hards that haven’t faded and they have another small % of “new” fans that choose to root for the home team regardless and/or for other reasons. Now, if they are ever good again, people will show up and TV ratings will go up. That’s just the way it works. If Haskins is the real deal and he’s rattling off wins a year from now, the stadium will have more Skins fans in attendenade and there will be more general chatter about the team. But it won’t be like the old days. That’s done. I’ll end with this as I have many times on ES over the years: I made one trip to RFK— in 1994, three years removed from a Super Bowl Title— Norv’s first season. We were terrible and we played the 49ers that day who went on to win the SB. It was a very disappointing experience. There was no atmosphere. Not many empty seats, but it was fairly empty in the 4th quarter and it wasn’t loud or intense or anything at any point in the game. Fans had basically checked out. So I think we probably overrated ourselves a bit over the years. Of course it was pretty easy to make a stadium rock when you are a SB contender for a decade. I am not absolving Snyder here just saying Skins fan probably shouldn’t have ever been classified with some other fan bases.