Death of a Fanbase

[justice98]

17 minutes ago, profusion said:

 

There's a lot to unpack there.

 

Philly sports fans are very tribal and hardcore...more like Buffalo and Cleveland than the other East Coast cities, I think. For folks like that, the teams form a crucial part of their civic/regional identity. They'll put up with a lot.

 

DC has always been more transient, but somehow the Redskins built a multigenerational institution despite that. For sure, severing that emotional connection is easier in a place like this. It's also important to remember that the population of the DC area has exploded in the last 20 years with tons of outsiders coming in to work in the vastly expanded IT and national security sectors in the wake of 9/11. This isn't even close to being the same place it was in 1991.

 

Not so sure about those Cowboys fans, by the way. I married a Texan, and while the feelings are strong about the Cowboys, I don't see it as being at the level of Rust Belt NFL fans.

 

 

 

So everybody should get used to this, because the glory days of a rocking stadium full of hardcore, loyal die hards is never coming back. No matter what happens on or off the field.  At least not for a while, like a generation or several.

 

If/when they build a new stadium, they need it to be modest in size like RFK.  65K seats, tops.  Most stadiums are in that neighborhood anyway.  We'll never get control of our stadium back messing around with more seats than that. I think the smallest stadium in the league is Arizona at 63K.

[kleese]

45 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

Ed, by the same token, if the Giants dude doesn't jump offsides and we lose that game, are you posting in the attendance thread quoting fans and players hat the atmosphere was comparable to the RG3 year?

 

Again, for me, the crapshow that the team has been has contributed to my personal apathy, but it's more the current nature of the league that is killing it for me.  It's tough to say if a 5-0 start would've resulted in many more fans, and I think a discussion of why the stadium was still empty would've still been warranted, just like it was in 2018, and whether Lafeminas strategy was a good idea.

Yes because that night in particular really stuck out to me. I thought it was loud and felt highly enthused on TV. From afar it seemed like a really good/positive atmosphere at that game. I thought week 1 the crowd that was there was pretty energized as well. Didn’t notice it so much yesterday. I’ll defer to those that were there though, and against the Giants seemed like most fans were saying the same. And ultimately yeah, if you walk out of the stadium after a thrilling win as opposed to a crushing loss, it likely affects how you view your experience. 
 

It actually makes some sense because at this point if you are a WFT fan and you are still going to games, chances are you REALLY care and likely contribute to a good atmosphere of the overall small volume. 

[London Kev]

I'm almost certain that a London based team wouldn't work. The games are always sold out in the current format with hardcore fans from all 32 teams, many of them having supported their own team since the early 80s. There's a brilliant atmosphere with lots of friendly (ish) banter between rivals, and most fans pick a team to root for just for the day (I usually choose the AFC team).

 

If it became a single teams' home stadium then I think you would lose that atmosphere, and attendance would drop. I suppose there would be some new fans attracted to the game but very few, if any would actually switch teams.

 

As already noted, the Jaguars (pronounced Jag-u-ars, not Jagwars 🙂) would be the most likely team, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Warhead36]

The transient argument is a bad one. Just about every big city is transient.

 

The fans aren't the issue. The franchise just sucks.

[kleese]

55 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

bc even at 4-0 heading into yesterday, it would still be tens of thousands of Saints fans. That is disheartening and disturbing when you go to games. Even when they win. 

Specifically as it relates to “fan invasions”

that isn’t something entirely unique to FedEx. It happens BIG TIME in Dallas as well— and so far this year we’ve seen it in Vegas and Los Angeles too. Glendale gets invaded regularly, as does Miami. Certain fanbases roll everywhere. Heck, WFT fans show up in good numbers in several road locations— including ATL a couple of weeks ago. 
 

This is a new phenomenon probably over the past 15-20 years in the NFL. Back in the day, if a team stunk, the stadium was just empty. Now with more transient fans across the country, secondary tickets, etc.. it’s sort of become a “thing” to make NFL road trips and organize groups of fans to invade other stadiums. 
 

It doesn’t really happen in places like Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota… these are less desirable vacation destinations and not easy places for fans to travel without making major arrangements. DC is perfect— people like to visit the area, and if you live in or around many of our opponents fanbases (Philly, NY, etc) it’s a very easy road trip. 
 

A place like Seattle is super insulated. Only team in the entire region. If you live in PNW, that’s your only option. Hard for opposing fans to just make a weekend out of it. 
 

Now, I do think it’s even worse at FedEx than other places. Our home fans hate the stadium and area, and have been there, done that. So secondary tickets are cheaper than other places. And because it’s a one-off for opposing fans, they don’t care much about the lack of stadium experience. And our geographic location is such that it is an easy place for most people to get to without breaking their backs (or wallets) to do so. A perfect storm of sorts. But not one entirely unique to FedEx. 

[kleese]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The transient argument is a bad one. Just about every big city is transient.

 

The fans aren't the issue. The franchise just sucks.

I don’t think this is entirely true. Until last season, the Browns were ABSOLUTELY as bad of an org as we’ve been— rife with ownership controversies and somehow even less on-field success than we’ve had. Same with the Lions. Both of those teams have maintained an incredibly loyal support from their fans. I think this is almost assuredly due to how those cities view those teams through a civic lens. Clevelanders are FIERCELY loyal to Cleveland and almost wear the Browns failures as a badge of honor— sort of an “if we can survive this, we can survive anything” mentality. And unlike the Redskins, their fans have no real glory to look back on. Their best years were filled with painful endings. The Lions have absolutely zero success in the lifetime of any Detroit fan. I’d add Buffalo to the mix as well as their run of ineptitude more or less coincided with ours until Josh Allen. 
 

Those are all rust-belt, older US cities with people that are very very proud to be where they are from and consider bailing on their home team treasonous— regardless of the abuse the team doles out to them. 
 

Redskins fan were pretty spoiled 1969-1992. That’s an entire generation and where most older fans came from. I’d say the fanbase held pretty strong for about 15-20 years after the glory years. Then around the 20 year mark (late 2000s/early 2010s) you started to see the cracks (Steelers takeover in 2008, Chiefs debacle in 2013). It’s just deteriorated since then. So the way I view it, approx 15 years or so was what our fanbase was able to stomach before bailing. Lions are on year 70. 

[hail2skins]

12 minutes ago, kleese said:

 

Now, I do think it’s even worse at FedEx than other places. Our home fans hate the stadium and area, and have been there, done that. So secondary tickets are cheaper than other places. And because it’s a one-off for opposing fans, they don’t care much about the lack of stadium experience. And our geographic location is such that it is an easy place for most people to get to without breaking their backs (or wallets) to do so. A perfect storm of sorts. But not one entirely unique to FedEx. 

I agree that fans of opposing teams are probably willing to spend more because the game is a one-time occurrence for that particular season. But while evidence of the attendance  erosion started in 2010 when they started to remove the seats from the upper deck, I think it's actually been exacerbated the past several years by higher secondary market prices than was the case prior to 2018. There are probably still a lot of STH in the lower deck (and by larger entities that explain a lot of the opposing jerseys in that area), but it seems that there's only so much that a Skins fan is gonna pay to sit in the 300s or 400s.

[profusion]

30 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The transient argument is a bad one. Just about every big city is transient.

 

The fans aren't the issue. The franchise just sucks.

 

Not to the same extent DC is. Los Angeles and Las Vegas are the only NFL cities I can think of that compare.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, profusion said:

 

Not to the same extent DC is. Los Angeles and Las Vegas are the only NFL cities I can think of that compare.

lolol...you don't think New York City is transient? Or Miami? Chicago?

 

Its 2021. People move around all over.

[SkipJackSkin]

Of course DC is a transient city, but that's not the point. It's transient in the sense that many people move here for work, but many then put down roots. Politics, national security, general feds, some F500 co's -- these are industries people work in their entire careers, and many of those jobs only here. Yes, people move here oftentimes with existing fan loyalties. But once they move here and have kids, that generation has a choice. If during that critical coming-of-age for sports fans the hometown team is winning... I think there is a high likelihood they become local fans. I think us winning consistently can solve the local/transient issue.

[kleese]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

lolol...you don't think New York City is transient? Or Miami? Chicago?

 

Its 2021. People move around all over.

I am not a DMV guy, but I know many. I also know many from Cleveland and Detroit. Those Cleveland and Detroit fans are insane about being from where they are from. Rep it as loud and proud as they can. It’s almost as if every time the Lions lose it makes this one dude I know even more proud to be a suffering Lions fan. I don’t get that same feeling from DMV folks. 

[SkipJackSkin]

13 minutes ago, kleese said:

I am not a DMV guy, but I know many. I also know many from Cleveland and Detroit. Those Cleveland and Detroit fans are insane about being from where they are from. Rep it as loud and proud as they can. It’s almost as if every time the Lions lose it makes this one dude I know even more proud to be a suffering Lions fan. I don’t get that same feeling from DMV folks. 

Maybe has less to do with 'Detroit Over Everything' mentality and more with so many more years of failure than us... develops into a coping mechanism where they really have come full circle.

 

Not being sarcastic. I think there is probably some sort of psychological explanation, or at least theory.

[No Nonsense]

You keep hearing about London. Why isn’t Toronto an option for an NFL team. It makes way more sense and it’s a much bigger city than any team that don’t have an NFL team. 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

The transient argument is a bad one. Just about every big city is transient.

 

The fans aren't the issue. The franchise just sucks.

 

Agreed, we are never winning enough to generate new blood into the fan base.  There are so many other factors, like the state of the stadium and constant shooting ourselves in the foot off the field, but the transient arguement is an overused one, thank you for calling it out.

[kleese]

11 minutes ago, SkipJackSkin said:

Maybe has less to do with 'Detroit Over Everything' mentality and more with so many more years of failure than us... develops into a coping mechanism where they really have come full circle.

 

Not being sarcastic. I think there is probably some sort of psychological explanation, or at least theory.

 
Probably. But whatever the explanation, I do think it’s pretty clear that those fans in Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc have remained more committed and loyal than they have in DC— despite similar (or worse) circumstances. Not dumping on our fans here, just making an observation. 
 

Maybe like with Cubs fans— I don’t think they knew what to do after they won the WS— almost like there was a tinge of disappointment. Their entire identity was being a long suffering Cubs fan. 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

You keep hearing about London. Why isn’t Toronto an option for an NFL team. It makes way more sense and it’s a much bigger city than any team that don’t have an NFL team. 

 

I'm not convinced they'd be anymore loyal to a single team then London.  We see this because NFL teams rarely play there, more likely to play in Mexico City then Toronto, should they get a team? Imo, no.

 

Good discussion. 

[kleese]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not convinced they'd be anymore loyal to a single team then London.  We see this because NFL teams rarely play there, more likely to play in Mexico City then Toronto, should they get a team? Imo, no.

 

Good discussion. 

Too close to Buffalo as well. Literally across the bridge. 

[heyholetsgogrant]

What make it worse is Dan Synder gets to pick the new name of the team, we know he’ll screw that up.

[No Nonsense]

1 hour ago, kleese said:

Too close to Buffalo as well. Literally across the bridge. 

Thats not an issue. Baltimore and Washington is very close and I think you’re underestimated just how big a city Toronto is. The Pegula’s would fight it, but they’d still sell out Hallmark Stadium. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by No Nonsense

[ananoman]

10 hours ago, kleese said:

Lots of random thoughts on this… 

 

—OP is correct… fanbase isn’t dying, it’s dead. And death is final. It cannot under any circumstance be brought back to life— not even with a new owner. What COULD happen is a rebirth of sorts. This is why the name change might work in their favor. You have lost an entire generation of potential fans— we have almost no young fans. And you’ve alienated a huge chunk of your previously loyal base. So now you need new people. At this rate, that isn’t happening. New name, new stadium, that stuff could help spawn something new. But it’s going to take years, maybe decades. No quick fix here. 
 

—I am a non-local fan. WFT fans are a little unique there— it’s not as geographic in terms of loyalty as other teams. The Bills prior to the last couple of years had been worse than us for 20 years. Lions are somehow still worse than us. Both have ownership issues over years. But their fanbase hasn’t wavered the way ours has in large part due to that geographic loyalty. Buffalo and Detroit have STRONG cultural loyalties among the people from those areas. DC is a unique spot. Lots and lots of people (like me) “adopted” the Redskins during the Glory years— I’ve never gotten the impression there is a super strong city loyalty among our base likely due to the transient nature of the area. Makes it easier to bail. 
 

—FedEx is really bad and the majority of that has nothing to do with Snyder. It offers nothing fun or interesting in terms of experience. It’s a pain to get to, there is nothing around it, aesthetics suck, nothing cool has ever happened there, etc so the ONLY reason to go is to watch an NFL game. Most other stadiums in the league offer other things— if not amenities and location, then history. What a colossal mistake by JKC. Yes, if we were really good over these years the place would be full and people wouldn’t hate it as much. Of course. But it’s an extra challenge to overcome— you need to get people to come IN SPITE of your stadium. And you’re already trying to get them to come IN SPITE of your team. Bad combo. 
 

—As others have stated, non-local fans still roll out fairly strong and generally seem a bit less jaded. Probably because non local fans were never there to experience the area when things were good so that’s one thing they aren’t missing. 
 

—I’m old— 44 and experienced the 80s and early 90s as a very young fan. My passion personally has not wavered. Not at all actually. But it’s been a conscious decision/action on my part. Because football is only 17 weeks (18 now I guess) and it is so rhythmic, it has become a massive part of my life. And I’ve chosen to have it remain a positive. If you ask me “have I enjoyed being a fan the past 25 years?” The answer is yes. Unequivocally. I’ve had a great time. It’s a tortured existence with a TON of frustration and disappointment, but I still enjoy the rhythm of it and the pangs of hope and occasional good moments. I am under no delusions about our owner or situation. I have just chosen to not let them ruin for it. I get why others bail. I dont blame them, but I do feel a bit bad for them. Sucks that it’s gotten to that point for so many. For me, I woke up Sunday, geared up, had the TVs set up on the deck, made some Gumbo in honor of playing NOLA, watched the London game, and watched our game with my son— who is getting into it this year for the first time. We had a really fun moment last week at the end vs Atlanta— yesterday was super frustrating and felt like so many other games over the years. But I still enjoyed the build up to the game, etc. This week I’ll make jokes all week about how we will get shredded by KC (we will) but I’ll still enjoy the process and sit down at noon with that 5% part of my brain that will have some hope we can do something memorable. 
 

—At this point I take some pride in the fact that I’m still plugging away. With so few of us left, I accept my place as an unwavering fan. It’s part of who I am and what I do and I feel like it’s up to ME to make the most of it because I obviously can’t depend on them. I figure if they are ever good again in my lifetime that it will feel even better that I stuck around. Maybe that’s it. I’m afraid if I bail and then they ever see glory again, it won’t feel as great because I let it die. So I just keep at it. Eventually I’m gonna check out from this world and I’ve spent so much time on this that I better keep it an overall positive experience.. or else, man, that’s sad. 
 

—Even just this season, I’ve paced my deck twice at the end of games, nervous as hell, and then ecstatic to win at the end. Those reactions are mostly involuntary but I guess set up by the conscious practice to continue to care. And chasing those moments is still worth it to me— even as fleeting as they are. And if at some point this year we find ourselves sitting at 3-10 or whatever, well, then I’ll check out emotionally for those remaining games and save it up for the next year. 

Just wanted to point out that as bad as the Bills have been since 2000, they actually have a higher winning percentage than Washington does over that period of time, and if not for the fact that they had to play in the same division as Tom Brady and the Patriots, it would have been even higher.

[method man]

3 hours ago, London Kev said:

I'm almost certain that a London based team wouldn't work. The games are always sold out in the current format with hardcore fans from all 32 teams, many of them having supported their own team since the early 80s. There's a brilliant atmosphere with lots of friendly (ish) banter between rivals, and most fans pick a team to root for just for the day (I usually choose the AFC team).

 

If it became a single teams' home stadium then I think you would lose that atmosphere, and attendance would drop. I suppose there would be some new fans attracted to the game but very few, if any would actually switch teams.

 

As already noted, the Jaguars (pronounced Jag-u-ars, not Jagwars 🙂) would be the most likely team, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

Jaguars are not moving. It is one of the fastest growing MSAs in the country

[kleese]

12 minutes ago, ananoman said:

Just wanted to point out that as bad as the Bills have been since 2000, they actually have a higher winning percentage than Washington does over that period of time, and if not for the fact that they had to play in the same division as Tom Brady and the Patriots, it would have been even higher.

But ZERO playoff appearances between 1999-2017. Heck, we won two division titles and made it as a WC twice over same span. 

[SoCalSkins]

2 hours ago, kleese said:

I don’t think this is entirely true. Until last season, the Browns were ABSOLUTELY as bad of an org as we’ve been— rife with ownership controversies and somehow even less on-field success than we’ve had. Same with the Lions. Both of those teams have maintained an incredibly loyal support from their fans. I think this is almost assuredly due to how those cities view those teams through a civic lens. Clevelanders are FIERCELY loyal to Cleveland and almost wear the Browns failures as a badge of honor— sort of an “if we can survive this, we can survive anything” mentality. And unlike the Redskins, their fans have no real glory to look back on. Their best years were filled with painful endings. The Lions have absolutely zero success in the lifetime of any Detroit fan. I’d add Buffalo to the mix as well as their run of ineptitude more or less coincided with ours until Josh Allen. 
 

Those are all rust-belt, older US cities with people that are very very proud to be where they are from and consider bailing on their home team treasonous— regardless of the abuse the team doles out to them. 
 

Redskins fan were pretty spoiled 1969-1992. That’s an entire generation and where most older fans came from. I’d say the fanbase held pretty strong for about 15-20 years after the glory years. Then around the 20 year mark (late 2000s/early 2010s) you started to see the cracks (Steelers takeover in 2008, Chiefs debacle in 2013). It’s just deteriorated since then. So the way I view it, approx 15 years or so was what our fanbase was able to stomach before bailing. Lions are on year 70. 

Lions played us in the NFC championship game in 1991. They had the run and shoot for while. Barry Sanders and Megatron. Along with a few decent runs with Stafford. They haven’t sucked for 70 years. 
 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by SoCalSkins

[ananoman]

6 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

Forbes still has Washington as the 7th most valuable NFL franchise. The NFL isn’t ever doing anything to Snyder. The other owners are happy with his ineptitude.

Exactly, we are essentially the Washington Generals for the rest of the teams in the NFL

[kleese]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Lions played us in the NFC championship game in 1992. They had the run and shoot for while. Barry Sanders and Megatron. Along with a few decent runs with Stafford. They haven’t sucked for 70 years. 

 
If the Lions haven’t sucked for 70 years, then no one has. They have ONE playoff win in approx 50 years. 
 

1958-2020: One playoff win. One. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by kleese