Death of a Fanbase

[CapsSkins]

7 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

The Chargers were usually decent with rivers though right? 

 

Yeah they spent a number of years stuck in that 7-9 to 9-7 range (not so unlike us) but they did have some great seasons in the 00's. They are definitely not in the same class of suck that the Bills were stuck in.

[Commander_N_Chief]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Thank you, sir!

 

Exactly right.  There's less incentive these days to go to the stadium in general.  Make your own food or get it delivered at a fraction of the price, have your buddies over, sit in heat/AC and watch the game on a giant screen with crystal clear picture.  Don't have to go anywhere, deal with traffic, deal with parking.  

 

It's all a trade-off.  If this team was as successful as the Patriots have been for the past 20 years, you'd be dying to go to a game.  If they had a stadium experience like Levi's Stadium or Lumen (Seahawks) Field, you'd still probably go just for the experience of going to watch a game at a cool place.  

 

Bad team for decades?  Bad stadium experience?  No reason to go in this day and age.

 

In regards to not missing a game....I think I watch out of habit these days.  Out of habit and out of fear that I'll miss the one game where they somehow put it together and get a win, even if it's during a ****ty season.  I wouldn't know what to do instead of watching a WFT game if it's on. How pathetic is that?

I get it, the need for the habitual feeling these games can give you.  For me personally I don't know if I'll ever get the love I once had for this team back the way that it was.  Even if they somehow finally got it all together... I'd watch but not allow myself to fall back in.  Not trying to make light of a serious issue but it's almost like this team has caused a PTSD feeling inside me.  I still follow the team and keep up, I try to pay attention here, and enjoy watching the draft.  It's possible if the team is ever sold from under Snyder, but he and the organizational mess that seems to always follow him have destroyed me as a rabid-fan; far removed from just the losing on the field.

[ananoman]

7 hours ago, kleese said:

Maybe in terms of winning the division, but not in terms of making the playoffs. In that time span they only won more than 8 games twice (two non-playoff 9-7 seasons). Twelve seasons below .500 including NINE in a row. 

To make the playoffs the Bills had to settle for a shot at the wild card since the Pats would be difficult to unseat as the division champion, and since they would have to play the Pats twice every year that  was a guaranteed 2 L's a season with few exceptions right off the bat, so even getting a wildcard was tough

 

It matters not anyways, the WFT sucks, and they've sucked for pretty much 30 years with a few anomalous seasons thrown in.

Edited October 12, 2021 by ananoman

[kleese]

1 hour ago, ananoman said:

To make the playoffs the Bills had to settle for a shot at the wild card since the Pats would be difficult to unseat as the division champion, and since they would have to play the Pats twice every year that  was a guaranteed 2 L's a season with few exceptions right off the bat, so even getting a wildcard was tough

 

It matters not anyways, the WFT sucks, and they've sucked for pretty much 30 years with a few anomalous seasons thrown in.

The fact that we’ve sucked is not in dispute. The topic is why do some fanbases of teams who have performed equally poorly or worse stick with their team more loyally than our fans have? I’m not even criticizing our fans— just pointing out that a few other fanbases have had it as bad or worse and have chosen to stick it out for whatever reason. 

[CapsSkins]

18 minutes ago, kleese said:

The fact that we’ve sucked is not in dispute. The topic is why do some fanbases of teams who have performed equally poorly or worse stick with their team more loyally than our fans have? I’m not even criticizing our fans— just pointing out that a few other fanbases have had it as bad or worse and have chosen to stick it out for whatever reason. 

 

I'm going to sound like a condescending coastal elitist prick for saying this, and maybe I am - okay I definitely am. But if you live in Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo, there just isn't much to do or write home about. So to those people, sports fandom makes up a way bigger part of their identities. It's not just a hobby to them; it's part of who they are. For example, I'd bet there are more female fans of those teams not because the women in those cities care more about football per se, but because to be a Clevelander is to be a Browns fan or to be a Buffalo native is to be in the Bills Mafia.

 

Places like Washington DC are full of culture and entertainment and career opportunities and other ways to occupy one's time or define one's identity. I mean I just look at myself. I'm a huge sports fan to the point where I post on a WFT message board and a Caps message board, but when the teams lose, it's easy for me to disconnect. I used to work in finance, now I work in Hollywood, I live in LA, there's so much going on around me that it's really easy to just do and think about other stuff. If I lived in Cleveland? Probably not so easy. Not trying to offend anyone, just my $0.02 about your question.

Edited October 12, 2021 by CapsSkins

[Burgold]

2 hours ago, PolarExpress said:

I’ve been a fan since the ‘80’s and I still watch, but I don’t get as emotional as I used to.  If something comes up during game time, I am now happy to skip the game.  I don’t mind losing, but it’s like the players care less than I do.  The coaching since Gibbs2 has been abysmal….and I am not confident that Rivera will change anything.  The stadium is a nightmare.  Too hard to get to and just a mess during the game.  I had hope for this season, but it’s gone.  We cannot have a top tier RB, Receiver, Corner, and QB….ever in one season.  It’s so frustrating.  I wish Snyder would sell the team.

Unfortunately, this reflects me too. I still see pretty much every game, but I'm not as emotionally charged. Heck, I'm more likely to curse a ref than cheer a touchdown these days.

[hail2skins]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If it weren't for that privilege, you couldn't get me close to that stadium.  There are no redeeming qualities about the game day experience.  IMO, Fed Ex field was built at the wrong time...it was built at the end of the era where concrete circles were still viable.  Fed Ex opened in 1997 and the very next year M&T Bank Stadium opened which is fantastic.  Put your Baltimore hate aside and go, it's beautiful.  Then a few years later you get Heinz Field, Ford Field...the list goes on and on.  I'm convinced that if the stadium was built 5-6 years later, we'd have a really nice place to play.

I looked at Wikipedia and it seemed like it took roughly 18 months for FedEx to be built, while it took M&T 26 months. Yes, M&T is certainly in a better location, but you wonder if that extra eight months could've made a difference with FedEx. Oh, if I'm not mistaken, M&T had jumbotrons when it opened in 1998. The excuse making for why it took a dozen years for them to be included at FedEx.......smh.

 

When I was looking at Wiki, they have a picture of the crowd at FedEx in October 2003, during Steve friggin Spurrier.  We got housed by the SB champ Bucs that day. But look at the place. Packed house on all levels, including 29 rows in the 400s, and I don't see a lot of Tampa jerseys in the lower bowl like you'll see in a few weeks. Just crazy how far its fallen.

 

[kleese]

52 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I'm going to sound like a condescending coastal elitist prick for saying this, and maybe I am - okay I definitely am. But if you live in Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo, there just isn't much to do or write home about. So to those people, sports fandom makes up a way bigger part of their identities. It's not just a hobby to them; it's part of who they are. For example, I'd bet there are more female fans of those teams not because the women in those cities care more about football per se, but because to be a Clevelander is to be a Browns fan or to be a Buffalo native is to be in the Bills Mafia.

 

Places like Washington DC are full of culture and entertainment and career opportunities and other ways to occupy one's time or define one's identity. I mean I just look at myself. I'm a huge sports fan to the point where I post on a WFT message board and a Caps message board, but when the teams lose, it's easy for me to disconnect. I used to work in finance, now I work in Hollywood, I live in LA, there's so much going on around me that it's really easy to just do and think about other stuff. If I lived in Cleveland? Probably not so easy. Not trying to offend anyone, just my $0.02 about your question.

I dispute nothing of what you are saying here— I also think it’s why those cities are genuinely and legitimately “better” sports cities— it just matters more. I consider myself to be that type of fan— I just happen to root for teams somewhat randomly in terms of geography, which is what happens if you love pro sports and grow up in OK. The WFT is absolutely part of my identity and I accept and embrace that— even when it’s embarrassing at times. I was here before Snyder and one of us will outlast the other. 

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, kleese said:

The fact that we’ve sucked is not in dispute. The topic is why do some fanbases of teams who have performed equally poorly or worse stick with their team more loyally than our fans have? I’m not even criticizing our fans— just pointing out that a few other fanbases have had it as bad or worse and have chosen to stick it out for whatever reason. 

 

 its probably gang-related...

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, kleese said:

The fact that we’ve sucked is not in dispute. The topic is why do some fanbases of teams who have performed equally poorly or worse stick with their team more loyally than our fans have? I’m not even criticizing our fans— just pointing out that a few other fanbases have had it as bad or worse and have chosen to stick it out for whatever reason. 

I'd say it's because all the side issues.  So much of what happens around this organization is ugly and demands we turn a blind eye, rationalize, or compartmentalize. We say, "Well, that's Danny" or "That's Bruce" and pretend our team is not dirty. It's crazy how many controversies and how much slime this team has accumulated over the years. It wears you out. Most of us want to root for the good guys and sometimes it's hard to think of the 'skins as the good guys. I'd like to think that aspect is changing. If nothing else, Ron Rivera seems like a good guy.

 

You can root for losers, especially if their hustling, and the characters are likable. It's harder when the problem is the team is underachieving or full of themselves. Harder yet when the negative stuff off the field bleeds into the game.

 

 

 

[CapsSkins]

8 minutes ago, kleese said:

I dispute nothing of what you are saying here— I also think it’s why those cities are genuinely and legitimately “better” sports cities— it just matters more. I consider myself to be that type of fan— I just happen to root for teams somewhat randomly in terms of geography, which is what happens if you love pro sports and grow up in OK. The WFT is absolutely part of my identity and I accept and embrace that— even when it’s embarrassing at times. I was here before Snyder and one of us will outlast the other. 

 

Yeah I agree. Buffalo will always be a better sports city than DC because there's **** all to do in Buffalo other than watch the Bills and Sabres - both of whom have been awful this past decade until the Bills very recently. I tell you what, though. DC was electric when the Caps won the Cup. I came back to DC to watch the clinching game and attend the parade. So much fun to be a part of that.

 

If the WFT gets good again, the fans will return. But until then, we can expect more of the same. Hell even most of the die hards on this forum have an air of general apathy about the team. Imagine how the non-die-hards feel.

Edited October 12, 2021 by CapsSkins

[kleese]

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'd say it's because all the side issues.  So much of what happens around this organization is ugly and demands we turn a blind eye, rationalize, or compartmentalize. We say, "Well, that's Danny" or "That's Bruce" and pretend our team is not dirty. It's crazy how many controversies and how much slime this team has accumulated over the years. It wears you out. Most of us want to root for the good guys and sometimes it's hard to think of the 'skins as the good guys. I'd like to think that aspect is changing. If nothing else, Ron Rivera seems like a good guy.

 

You can root for losers, especially if their hustling, and the characters are likable. It's harder when the problem is the team is underachieving or full of themselves. Harder yet when the negative stuff off the field bleeds into the game.

 

 

 

To a certain extent, I agree, but not wholly. The Bills and Browns for example have also had ownership issues and controversies over this period— in the case of Cleveland, even a criminal investigation. Just about any losing franchise has fans that turn on ownership— Bengals fans LOATHE Mike Brown, etc. I also don’t think the fans would come back and stick around long if Dan sold the team to Mother Teresa and then never won. I think the sliminess makes it easier for fans to turn away, but in the end, I don’t think it matters all that much. If Dan was who is he but we lucked into a guy like Justin Herbert last year and we were cruising with him, there would be far less chatter about this. Conversely, if we had the nicest and cleanest owner in history but the team was going 5-12 every year, the fanbase wouldn’t be happy or filling the stands. 

[TK]

4 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

@thesubmittedone(and his pressbox cologne) was just as great. 

Oh goddamn. I gotta find that pic now.  

 

 

 

[Bloodytusk]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I'm going to sound like a condescending coastal elitist prick for saying this, and maybe I am - okay I definitely am. But if you live in Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo, there just isn't much to do or write home about. So to those people, sports fandom makes up a way bigger part of their identities. It's not just a hobby to them; it's part of who they are. For example, I'd bet there are more female fans of those teams not because the women in those cities care more about football per se, but because to be a Clevelander is to be a Browns fan or to be a Buffalo native is to be in the Bills Mafia.

 

Places like Washington DC are full of culture and entertainment and career opportunities and other ways to occupy one's time or define one's identity. I mean I just look at myself. I'm a huge sports fan to the point where I post on a WFT message board and a Caps message board, but when the teams lose, it's easy for me to disconnect. I used to work in finance, now I work in Hollywood, I live in LA, there's so much going on around me that it's really easy to just do and think about other stuff. If I lived in Cleveland? Probably not so easy. Not trying to offend anyone, just my $0.02 about your question.

I moved to Cincinnati (which likely has less to do then Cleveland) 3.5 years ago from Nothern Virginia. The only time I ever wish I was back in Virginia is when I want Peruvian chicken. As someone that recently finished grad school the cost of living change has allowed me to be able to do much more here. I also can't think of anything I could do in the DMV that I could not do here. I guess if I had more money it might be different. I think a big issue is the demographics of the area.

 

The stadium was a pain to get to and was not that affordable so our ratio of working class/people of lesser means to yuppies was not favorable compared to those cities. Id wager that the average working class person or person of lesser means from the midwest makes for a more engaged football fan when compared  to a DMV yuppy. Especially since the yuppy types were the first to jump ship to go support the Capitals or Nationals and ignore the skins. Wish we could get more of the people from the poorer parts of the area at the games, they would rock the house win or lose. Stick-up-their-ass yuppies just aren't going to get hyped to the level we need to make that stadium a fun experience when we suck. 

 

As for my 2 cents. I'm 30 and have only ever known failure. Some of the older guys talk about how they feel sorry for younger fans because we didn't see the glory years, but I also feel sorry for the older fans because they saw the glory years and have to contrast those memories with years of terrible ones. Overall its miserable for all of us regardless. Supporting this franchise is sometimes emotionally unhealthy for me and, based on some of the posts i've seen after the loss, I believe to many others. I hope everyone can take steps to relax. I plan to keep supporting the skins, but im going to take steps so that the state of the franchise does not cause me distress. I dont blame the people that divest themselves from the team, its probably the healthy thing to do. I just graduated from a University of Cincinnati gradschool and think it is the right time to get into college football to balance out my football experience because I think it will help my mood.

 

[CapsSkins]

9 minutes ago, Bloodytusk said:

I moved to Cincinnati (which likely has less to do then Cleveland) 3.5 years ago from Nothern Virginia. The only time I ever wish I was back in Virginia is when I want Peruvian chicken. As someone that recently finished grad school the cost of living change has allowed me to be able to do much more here. I also can't think of anything I could do in the DMV that I could not do here. I guess if I had more money it might be different. I think a big issue is the demographics of the area.

 

The stadium was a pain to get to and was not that affordable so our ratio of working class/people of lesser means to yuppies was not favorable compared to those cities. Id wager that the average working class person or person of lesser means from the midwest makes for a more engaged football fan when compared  to a DMV yuppy. Especially since the yuppy types were the first to jump ship to go support the Capitals or Nationals and ignore the skins. Wish we could get more of the people from the poorer parts of the area at the games, they would rock the house win or lose. Stick-up-their-ass yuppies just aren't going to get hyped to the level we need to make that stadium a fun experience when we suck. 

 

As for my 2 cents. I'm 30 and have only ever known failure. Some of the older guys talk about how they feel sorry for younger fans because we didn't see the glory years, but I also feel sorry for the older fans because they saw the glory years and have to contrast those memories with years of terrible ones. Overall its miserable for all of us regardless. Supporting this franchise is sometimes emotionally unhealthy for me and, based on some of the posts i've seen after the loss, I believe to many others. I hope everyone can take steps to relax. I plan to keep supporting the skins, but im going to take steps so that the state of the franchise does not cause me distress. I dont blame the people that divest themselves from the team, its probably the healthy thing to do. I just graduated from a University of Cincinnati gradschool and think it is the right time to get into college football to balance out my football experience because I think it will help my mood.

 

 

Yeah I'm 29 so I've only known misery also, although I got to see the Caps win a Cup and that's made me a lot more zen about the WFT. 

 

I think you're right about the Yuppie to Working Class thing, and I say that as a proud stick up my ass yuppie. 😂😂 Although it kind of speaks to the same fundamental point I was making. If working class is a euphemism for less money, it means less optionality as to how to spend your time.

 

Also I don't mean to get too lofty or abstract/academic, but if anyone here is familiar with Jonathan Haidt's work on moral psychology, there are clear differences in upper class vs working class moral frameworks that would lead to the latter being more into sports fandom (the long and short of it is upper class tends to be more individualistic and emphasis on personal autonomy whereas working class has greater emphasis on values like group loyalty).

 

In truth I think it's probably a combination of all these things. But to give an example, I did my freshman year of college at UVA and then transferred to UPenn. Forget the football team, general school pride was much, much, much higher at UVA than UPenn, where kids were more focused on their own resumes and ambitions. Logically speaking that might seem counterintuitive since UPenn/Wharton are more "prestigious" than UVA (though UVA is a great school in its own right, and no lack of money among the student population). But I think a big part of that is being in Charlottesville vs Philadelphia.  

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by CapsSkins

[duffy]

Man, this thread sucks.

 

Everyone was so pumped for this this season. I'm not giving up yet. We've seen this defense perform. We'll get Thomas and Samuel back. I'm not giving up just yet. 

The fans will return when things turn around. Keep the faith. 

[El Mexican]

Just a short list of reasons of the last 20 years, off the top of my head:

 

• No name team
• No identity since forever
• Mediocre product on the field
• RFK's location was (is) very centric, FedEx Field not so much (this is huge)
• Terrible ownership
• Carrousel coaching staff
• QB carrousel
• League clowns for at least four years (Spurrier & Zorn eras)
• Internal drama
• Vinny
• Peeping Toms at the excutive level
• Baltimore Ravens

 

I'd also like to stress that after our last SB victory we had some terrible seasons but the Cooke family would never have allowed the absolute debasing of the team like The Danny has done for the last 20 years. The Cooks were hard ****s yes, not to everyone's liking, but they had the notion of respectability at least.

 

By the late 90s, with a few terrible "changing of the guard" seasons, this team was still very competive and had personality. Norv stayed the ship (Oficially 1999 was The Danny's first season. He arrived during that Summer. In reality 1999 was a continuation of the previous regime. It was a good season by any standard).

 

It's amazing there's any fan base at all really.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by El Mexican

[86 Snyder]

15 minutes ago, duffy said:

The fans will return when things turn around. Keep the faith. 

 

[Bloodytusk]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Also I don't mean to get too lofty or abstract/academic, but if anyone here is familiar with Jonathan Haidt's work on moral psychology, there are clear differences in upper class vs working class moral frameworks that would lead to the latter being more into sports fandom (the long and short of it is upper class tends to be more individualistic and emphasis on personal autonomy whereas working class has greater emphasis on values like group loyalty).

The working class type have their own type of individualism and personal autonomy, but I could see that people of lesser means may be more inclinded to band together in the form of group loyality more often.

 

Going to your point about how sports mean more people in those cities. I think people of lesser means or in areas where growth is not as strong might cling to the vicarious nature of professional sports more then someone who makes it to the DMV and is successful in an area that is still growing. They may need it more for a sense of belonging to. I am personally biased in all this because I grew up in the Annadale/Falls Church area and associated strong skins support with lower socioeconomic levels and associate the higher socioeconomic levels with supporting the Capitals and Nationals. 

 

4 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

Just a short list of reasons of the last 20 years, off the top of my head:

• Baltimore Ravens

 

 

How much of it is them though? I guess in Maryland its stronger, but I associate the Nationals and Capitals with changings fans focus more then the Ravens.

[El Mexican]

5 minutes ago, Bloodytusk said:

How much of it is them though? I guess in Maryland its stronger, but I associate the Nationals and Capitals with changings fans focus more then the Ravens.

 

Hard to quantify, yes. But that team's rise and success and our downfall adds to overall stench around the franchise. 

[DCSaints_fan]

30 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Yeah I'm 29 so I've only known misery also, although I got to see the Caps win a Cup and that's made me a lot more zen about the WFT. 

 

I think you're right about the Yuppie to Working Class thing, and I say that as a proud stick up my ass yuppie. 😂😂 Although it kind of speaks to the same fundamental point I was making. If working class is a euphemism for less money, it means less optionality as to how to spend your time.

 

Also I don't mean to get too lofty or abstract/academic, but if anyone here is familiar with Jonathan Haidt's work on moral psychology, there are clear differences in upper class vs working class moral frameworks that would lead to the latter being more into sports fandom (the long and short of it is upper class tends to be more individualistic and emphasis on personal autonomy whereas working class has greater emphasis on values like group loyalty).

 

In truth I think it's probably a combination of all these things. But to give an example, I did my freshman year of college at UVA and then transferred to UPenn. Forget the football team, general school pride was much, much, much higher at UVA than UPenn, where kids were more focused on their own resumes and ambitions. Logically speaking that might seem counterintuitive since UPenn/Wharton are more "prestigious" than UVA (though UVA is a great school in its own right, and no lack of money among the student population). But I think a big part of that is being in Charlottesville vs Philadelphia.  

 

I did my undergrad at VT and spent a good amount of time at Stanford working on campus. 

 

In terms of enthusiasm for the football team there was no comparison.  The gameday experience at Stanford was dull compared to VT. despite Stanford being basically just as good if not better most years.

[CapsSkins]

1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I did my undergrad at VT and spent a good amount of time at Stanford working on campus. 

 

In terms of enthusiasm for the football team there was no comparison.  The gameday experience at Stanford was dull compared to VT. despite Stanford being basically just as good if not better most years.

 

Yup. Ivy League schools and comparable ones like Stanford don't have rah rah school spirit but have huge value in the post-grad alumni network. I got my first few jobs and still get consulting work through the Wharton alumni network. So there's still a lot of "pride" but it's in a very transactional and self-interested sense. Whereas schools like UVA or VT or the like have that strong sense of school spirit on campus. Hell even as I was putting in my transfer applications I still went to UVA football games (a different exercise in futility)

 

Anyway, as much as we dissect all the reasons for the decline, the truth is if the team ever started to contend then all the fans would come back. It really is as simple as Al Davis put it: "Just win, baby"

[petey hodge]

5 hours ago, hail2skins said:

I looked at Wikipedia and it seemed like it took roughly 18 months for FedEx to be built, while it took M&T 26 months. Yes, M&T is certainly in a better location, but you wonder if that extra eight months could've made a difference with FedEx. Oh, if I'm not mistaken, M&T had jumbotrons when it opened in 1998. The excuse making for why it took a dozen years for them to be included at FedEx.......smh.

 

When I was looking at Wiki, they have a picture of the crowd at FedEx in October 2003, during Steve friggin Spurrier.  We got housed by the SB champ Bucs that day. But look at the place. Packed house on all levels, including 29 rows in the 400s, and I don't see a lot of Tampa jerseys in the lower bowl like you'll see in a few weeks. Just crazy how far its fallen.

 

 

our downfall is even more epic than....

 

 

 

[Dark Acre]

3 hours ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I did my undergrad at VT and spent a good amount of time at Stanford working on campus. 

 

In terms of enthusiasm for the football team there was no comparison.  The gameday experience at Stanford was dull compared to VT. despite Stanford being basically just as good if not better most years.

To be fair, Stanford is in a major metropolitan area (S.F./San Jose) while Blacksburg.  Yeah, big difference.  I'm also guessing that college football is a lot more appealing to the VT crowd than it is to the Leland Stanford, Jr. crowd.

[profusion]

11 hours ago, kleese said:

To a certain extent, I agree, but not wholly. The Bills and Browns for example have also had ownership issues and controversies over this period— in the case of Cleveland, even a criminal investigation. Just about any losing franchise has fans that turn on ownership— Bengals fans LOATHE Mike Brown, etc. I also don’t think the fans would come back and stick around long if Dan sold the team to Mother Teresa and then never won. I think the sliminess makes it easier for fans to turn away, but in the end, I don’t think it matters all that much. If Dan was who is he but we lucked into a guy like Justin Herbert last year and we were cruising with him, there would be far less chatter about this. Conversely, if we had the nicest and cleanest owner in history but the team was going 5-12 every year, the fanbase wouldn’t be happy or filling the stands. 

 

Those teams have had their ownership issues here and there over the years, but nothing like Dan's 21-year reign of error. It's not one thing, it's the whole thing.

 

Jimmy Haslam has/had legal issues, but it was over the family business and not the Browns. Dan Snyder's sleaziness has not only infected the Redskins, but taken it over completely. You can't get away from it as a fan.

 

Mike Brown is cheap, and that sucks for Bengals fans (and has had its effect on attendance there). There's just no comparison to the continual sleaze and boneheadedness coming out of Ashburn, though.

 

The Bills' constant threats to move elsewhere start to get into Snyder territory, I guess. Buffalonians must be more forgiving, because they put up with having Ralph Wilson's name on the stadium despite him doing that over the years. Don't know about the Pegulas, but they seem committed to their community.

 

Dan Snyder doesn't get the national press that a more successful villain like Jerry Jones does, but he really ought to. The awfulness that has emanated from Redskins Park over the last 20 years defies belief. I'm starting to believe that Ron has realized he can't fix this. He seems to be coming to that conclusion faster than Mike Shanahan did. Jason Wright might be next to come to that realization. I don't expect either of them to stick around for too much longer.

Edited October 13, 2021 by profusion