All things defense

[KDawg]

I’m worried about the edges. We have had a tough time in the first preseason game and the Ravens scrimmages out there, but from preseason 1, to day 1 of the joint practice to day 2 of the joint practice things improved. I think our secondary is excellent. Our DL will be great against pass, decent against run. Our backers… well we have a few. 
 

Going to be an interesting year defensively. I can see us getting gashed at times but forcing a bunch of errors for opposing offenses. 

[Renegade7]

I echo a lot of the concerns regarding our DEs making the difference in being a good defense or great one.

 

I was absolutely trashing Young and Sweat during the Browns game and my Dad finally put up his hand to calm me down right before Sweat ended that redzone stand by himself.

 

The talent is clearly there.

[philibusters]

17 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Its interesting to hear someone else share my... fears. It comes down to having a bunch of studs up front and the belief a DC shouldn't have to blitz to get pressure with the draft capital Ron has used on defense. Including now on the backend giving our pass rush a bit more time. But not if they are playing off in the famous BDB scheme to slow the game down minimize drives in an attempt to keep scores low to help out an O under siege. 

 

 

 

We are playing the Fangio style defense, which is categorized by two high safeties and lots of zone match.  The Fangio style defense is the most popular bend but don't break defense in the NFL currently.  With two safeties high, so you won't have an extra guy in the box against the run.  With two high safeties lots of cover 4 and 2, but because its a zone match the exact coverage may matter less than traditional zone.   The advantages are it helps take away the long deep pass (two high safeties) and its amorphous before the snap (zone match).  If the offense puts a guy in motion we can move a guy with him (making it look like man coverage when its actually zone match) and likewise we cannot move a defender but because its zone match, it does kind of become man to man defense so its harder for a QB to determine where to throw the ball before the snap.   So it aims to take away the big play and hide what the defense is before the snap.  It probably is the most popular defense in the NFL and we play it well, but it is more of a bend but don't break than an aggressive defense.

[dyst]

The edge guys need to get double digit sacks to take this line to the next level

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

We are playing the Fangio style defense, which is categorized by two high safeties and lots of zone match.  The Fangio style defense is the most popular bend but don't break defense in the NFL currently.  With two safeties high, so you won't have an extra guy in the box against the run.  With two high safeties lots of cover 4 and 2, but because its a zone match the exact coverage may matter less than traditional zone.   The advantages are it helps take away the long deep pass (two high safeties) and its amorphous before the snap (zone match).  If the offense puts a guy in motion we can move a guy with him (making it look like man coverage when its actually zone match) and likewise we cannot move a defender but because its zone match, it does kind of become man to man defense so its harder for a QB to determine where to throw the ball before the snap.   So it aims to take away the big play and hide what the defense is before the snap.  It probably is the most popular defense in the NFL and we play it well, but it is more of a bend but don't break than an aggressive defense.

Wow, actual football content! Good on you!

[RandyHolt]

11 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

We are playing the Fangio style defense, which is categorized by two high safeties and lots of zone match.  The Fangio style defense is the most popular bend but don't break defense in the NFL currently.  With two safeties high, so you won't have an extra guy in the box against the run.  With two high safeties lots of cover 4 and 2, but because its a zone match the exact coverage may matter less than traditional zone.   The advantages are it helps take away the long deep pass (two high safeties) and its amorphous before the snap (zone match).  If the offense puts a guy in motion we can move a guy with him (making it look like man coverage when its actually zone match) and likewise we cannot move a defender but because its zone match, it does kind of become man to man defense so its harder for a QB to determine where to throw the ball before the snap.   So it aims to take away the big play and hide what the defense is before the snap.  It probably is the most popular defense in the NFL and we play it well, but it is more of a bend but don't break than an aggressive defense.

Post more often!  Thanks.

 

Defensive strategy seems to get rarely discussed in this detail. Sure it can be dynamic from play to play but over time there's a pattern. On game days fans at home are told nothing about what a defense is going. Maybe on a play or two the analyst will say what was run but discussions like your post just never happen.  I would like to think in this day and age advanced stats would track which team plays cover 1 the most. 2. 3. Zone Match. Times the DTs 1 gap. 2 Gaps. Cinco. Dime. Nickel. Base. Everything. There are only 17 games. It still boggles the mind why it took so long for advanced stats to become common with football being the most popular sport. All 22 for all to see. Lots of time between games. A defense only has 75 snaps a week.

 

Jeff Mans is the only person I have heard that clearly tracks these tendencies. I posted in December that I head Mans saying we ran Man 55% of the time. Not sure how accurate that is but I know few people can conclusively dispute that.

Edited August 20, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Koolblue13]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:15 AM, Koolblue13 said:

This is super cool to watch. I'm expecting a lot of this formation this year

 

 

27 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Post more often!  Thanks.

 

Defensive strategy seems to get rarely discussed in this detail. Sure it can be dynamic from play to play but over time there's a pattern. On game days fans at home are told nothing about what a defense is going. Maybe on a play or two the analyst will say what was run but discussions like your post just never happen.  I would like to think in this day and age advanced stats would track which team plays cover 1 the most. 2. 3. Zone Match. Everything. There are only 17 games. It still boggles the mind why it took so long for advanced stats to become common with football being the most popular sport. 

 

Jeff Mans is the only person I have heard that clearly tracks these tendencies. I posted in December that I head Mans saying we ran Man 55% of the time. Not sure how accurate that is but I know few people can conclusively dispute that.

This is a fun video.

[philibusters]

The Fangio defense we run is kind of the NFL's response to the Shanahan offenses, particularly the Sean McVay style Shanahan offenses.  The Shanahan offense which is run by over half the NFL teams has a lot of features.  It was partially developed during Mike Shanahan coaching tenure here in Washington when Kyle Shanahan was the offensive coordinator and Sean McVay, Mike Lafluer, and Mike McDaniel were on the staff here.  The nuances are beyond me and I have never read a book or anything on it, I just pick up tiny bits here and there from listening to a lot of podcasts.  But one feature of the Shanahan offense is its marries a wide zone running game to a pass game that used a lot of play action and uses the middle of the field.  Presnap its hard to figure out what the offense is doing and the offense puts defensive players in tension by using the playaction a lot.   If the defenders start to move towards the sidelines to defend the wide zone run they vacate the middle of the field opening that up for the pass game and if they stay in the middle of the field to defend the pass they are going to give up big runs against the wide zone run.  Almost all playaction is designed to look like wide zone runs (compare that to Scott Turner was criticized for sometimes running play action out of formations we rarely ran out of) The system was designed so that for the first half second post snap the offense kind of looks the same whether it is a pass or run.  It puts defenders in tension. 

 

McVay runs a purer style of the offense than Kyle Shanahan.  Kyle Shanahan mixes up the runs--he'll use a decent amount gap runs and inside zone runs in addition to wide zone runs and his passing system puts more responsibility on the QB to read concepts.  McVay style versions of the offense are even more heavy on outside zone runs and during its heyday 2018 when it looked like his version was going to take over the NFL, it placed less stress on the QB being able to read concepts after the snap.   It got to the point where on most plays McVay was just telling Goff what receiver to throw to because the system put the defense under stress and by just looking at the defensive alignment before snap you knew who to throw to.  The Rams were killing it in 2018 until they played the Chicago Bears who had Fangio as their DC.  He used what would develop into a Fangio style defense that made it impossible to tell pre-snap what the defense was and even the first half second or so after the snap is kind of an amorphous blob.  The Rams offense started sputtering some as others teams starting copying that. They did make the Super Bowl but their offense was toned down and then completely sputtered in the Super Bowl against the Patriots who copied a lot of what Fangio did.   

 

The second feature it has is that the two high safeties take away the deep pass which has somewhat limited players like Patrick Mahomes.  Early in Mahomes career he looked unstoppable.  For what its worth the Chiefs don't use a Shanahan offense they use a modern west coast offense.  Andy Reid essentially has his own offensive tree that competes with the Shanahan tree as the two main trees in the NFL's with only a handful of teams using offensives that don't really fall under either tree (Scott Turner as his offense was more of a traditional prostyle offense).  With Eric Bieniemy we definitely fall under the Andy Reid tree now.    As a second year player in his first year starting in 2018, Mahomes statistically had his best season (by quite a bit).  His 8.8 yards per attempt was his highest by far (8.3 is his second highest), his 50 TD's was 7 more than his next best season and he threw for over 5,000 yards something he has done only twice (last season was the other season he did it, but he had an extra game last season to do it because the NFL added a 17th game to the schedule between 2018 and 2022).  The reason his 2018 was so special was because defenses have changed since then.  There is a lot more two high safeties which forces the offense to throw more underneath stuff.  In general scoring has been going down since 2020 after rising for more than a decade which is probably an indication that NFL defenses are successfully responding to modern NFL offenses.

 

Before the Fangio defenses starting spreading the most popular defense in the NFL was the Seattle Cover 3 defense and its offshoots which was developed by Pete Carroll and Dan Quinn.   It used a lot of one high safety defenses (cover 3 and cover 1).  It was an aggressive defense that allowed to DC's to use a lot of bump and run technique if they had the stomach for the risk of using press technique and played a lot of one high safeties.  However it had its weaknesses.  It didn't really hide what the defense was doing and it was risky with only one high safety and good QB's with a good deep ball like Mahomes absolutely annihilated it.

Edited August 20, 2023 by philibusters

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 8/19/2023 at 11:08 AM, philibusters said:

 

We are playing the Fangio style defense, which is categorized by two high safeties and lots of zone match.  The Fangio style defense is the most popular bend but don't break defense in the NFL currently.  With two safeties high, so you won't have an extra guy in the box against the run.  With two high safeties lots of cover 4 and 2, but because its a zone match the exact coverage may matter less than traditional zone.   The advantages are it helps take away the long deep pass (two high safeties) and its amorphous before the snap (zone match).  If the offense puts a guy in motion we can move a guy with him (making it look like man coverage when its actually zone match) and likewise we cannot move a defender but because its zone match, it does kind of become man to man defense so its harder for a QB to determine where to throw the ball before the snap.   So it aims to take away the big play and hide what the defense is before the snap.  It probably is the most popular defense in the NFL and we play it well, but it is more of a bend but don't break than an aggressive defense.

The Fangio defense is, in a lot of ways, an adaptation of the Tampa-2 defense.  This was popularized by Monte Kiffin and Tony Dungy, with the corners up, safeties back, with the thought of keeping everything in front of you, and rallying to make the tackle. There were 4 ways to really attack the Tampa-2 which Fangio's defense tries to account for in different ways:

 

1. The seam route: the MLB has middle responsibility, so, if you have a fast guy up the middle, you can split the defense and get a throw up the middle before the safeties can cover and past the dropping MLB

2. The "honey hole" throw, which is between the up-corner and the closing safety.  But beware: if the QB doesn't drop the ball into the right spot, the WR gets decapitated by the safety, or the ball gets picked off by the DB.  I think REDACTED tried this throw maybe 20 times last year, completed 1 (it was an actual good throw), had 5 guys sent to the blue tent, and 3 INTs.  Tom Brady would eat Dungy's lunch with it.  (Yet, let us not forget, REDACTED beat Brady.)  

3. Just keep dropping the ball off underneath and forcing the defense to make play after play after play.  

4. Run at it, especially towards the outside.  This is what Shanahan really pushed.  Since the safeties were back, the Tampa-2 counted on the LBs and DL to account for the run game almost without assistance.  

 

One thing I think we do somewhat differently than other teams is "odd" personnel groupings.  5 DL 1 LB, using extra safeties, etc.  It "feels" like we do more of this stuff than a lot of other teams.  It's base 2-deep zone-match, but JDR does a lot of interesting stuff with personnel.

 

What he hasn't done a great job with is creative blitzing.  Hoping we see more of that this year. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

The fall of the Single High Seattle style defense was in part from how difficult it is to run. HoF caliber FS and CB really helped make that coverage work. They also had a fully scheme dependent but awesome in that scheme box SS, and a HoF caliber MLB.

 

Take away all of that secondary and off-ball talent and the scheme is ridiculously hard to run well, let alone be able to hang with HoF caliber QB's.

 

One thing I really liked from the early Legion of Boom defense was how they used their DL. They actually ran a normal DT at DE.  So it was 3 300+ lbers and a pass rush specialist at the other DE spot.

 

Another way to think of it were only 3 guys on the line with a dedicated Blitzer added in. Thought that was a fun concept.

[NoCalMike]

Neither Sweat nor Chase Young should be expected to come away with premier DE contract money if they end up with under 10 sacks this season. There is a reason the middle of the D-line was paid the way they were. Performance. Not potential or upside, but actual performance. I like our DE's but don't at this point love them. I know sacks themselves aren't the end all be all, but the elite DE's still manage to rack up the sacks ON TOP OF all the other stuff they do well.  

[Chris 44]

48 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Neither Sweat nor Chase Young should be expected to come away with premier DE contract money if they end up with under 10 sacks this season. There is a reason the middle of the D-line was paid the way they were. Performance. Not potential or upside, but actual performance. I like our DE's but don't at this point love them. I know sacks themselves aren't the end all be all, but the elite DE's still manage to rack up the sacks ON TOP OF all the other stuff they do well.  

I want to see them both play within the scheme...hold the edge. Tired of watching Chase run up field and letting the RB, QB take off. 

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I want to see them both play within the scheme...hold the edge. Tired of watching Chase run up field and letting the RB, QB take off. 

 

Then you need different players, because great plays help make the scheme versus needing to be reminded to stay in the existing one.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Renegade7

[Going Commando]

16 hours ago, philibusters said:

The system was designed so that for the first half second post snap the offense kind of looks the same whether it is a pass or run.  It puts defenders in tension. 

 

It reminds me of a mic'd up video of a joint practice between San Diego and San Francisco that cracked me up the first time I saw it.  Bosa was talking to Kittle about how good a job the 49ers do of disguising their runs and passes and made the funniest face:

 

 

They're the masters of making everything in their offense look the same.

[FrFan]

Commanders Camp Takeaways: Defense Looks Complete With Strong Line and Rookie Potential

The 24th team I’ve visited this summer is the one with new ownership and, seemingly, a whole new outlook. Here’s what I got from the Commanders …

 

1. The decision to take Emmanuel Forbes with the 16th pick—and over Oregon star Christian Gonzalez—spurred a lot of conversation in Washington, but to this point, Forbes has been everything the Commanders imagined he would be. A big reason the coaches and scouts fell in love with him, to the point where he was a clear target (maybe the clear target) of theirs going into the first night of the draft, was his ball production. Ron Rivera & Co. knew they needed more in the way of turnovers, and creating them was Forbes’s specialty at Mississippi State. So far, the Commanders have gotten that. But what might surprise some people about Forbes is how quickly he, at 6'1" and 166 pounds, has come into being aggressive and physical in the run game. And that showed up in Monday night’s game, when the rookie stoned veteran tailback Melvin Gordon on a third-and-1, a play a few folks at the facility Wednesday raised to me. If Forbes holds up physically at his size, it sure looks like Washington got a good one at a very important position.

At Mississippi State, Forbes tied for third nationally with six interceptions in 2022, returning three for scores  

2. We’ll have a lot more on Sam Howell on Monday. Just know for now there’s very little doubt in the building on what he can bring to the table. No one in Washington thinks the second-year pro looks like a fifth-round pick—and the Commanders are proving their confidence lies with Howell in how new coordinator Eric Bieniemy is building an offense specifically for him. The new look will, of course, have Kansas City hallmarks to it, while also highlighting Howell’s ability to make throws on the move.

 

3. Daron Payne and Jonathan Allen got to a point this summer where they made it hard for the offense to have productive practices. Allen, in particular, looks ready to take another step, with a new, refined set of pass-rush moves promising to take his game on passing downs to another level. And Payne, after getting his four-year, $90 million contract, has been his normal disruptive self, which should make the D-line here a bear to deal with. And even more so if the Commanders are right with their optimism on seventh-round rookie Andre Jones Jr., a physically imposing end who oozes potential and is built like the two teammates he is in a position group with (Chase Young and Montez Sweat).

 

4. The offensive line is the biggest question area, but it does look like four spots are nailed down, with Charles Leno and Andrew Wylie at the tackles, converted tackle Sam Cosmi at right guard and Giants import Nick Gates at center. Left guard has been the question, and it looks like Saahdiq Charles has that one now, with Chris Paul backing him up. The one caveat there is rookie Ricky Stromberg, who has come on during camp and could wind up starting games at guard or center. If there are issues with Charles (or one of the other interior positions), Stromberg could wind up in the lineup. Also, I’d expect Bieniemy to use the run game to manage Howell and the line early on—and it could be, in part, behind another rookie. Sixth-round rookie Chris Rodriguez has shown aggression and efficiency as a runner in camp, and will have a role (maybe a big one) in the offense.

 

5. For defense, the safety position was probably the biggest trouble area going into camp, but Darrick Forrest—a third-year player who has steadily improved and is coming off a four-interception, 88-tackle season—looks ready to take another step next to Kamren Curl. And Jeremy Reaves, who went from camp body to practice squad member to Pro Bowl special teamer, has had another very solid summer. The Commanders feel good about the depth he will bring to the position, on top of being an ace in the kicking game for them. And if the Commanders are good at safety? The defense should be pretty complete, front to back.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, FrFan said:

5. For defense, the safety position was probably the biggest trouble area going into camp, but Darrick Forrest—a third-year player who has steadily improved and is coming off a four-interception, 88-tackle season—looks ready to take another step next to Kamren Curl. And Jeremy Reaves, who went from camp body to practice squad member to Pro Bowl special teamer, has had another very solid summer. The Commanders feel good about the depth he will bring to the position, on top of being an ace in the kicking game for them. And if the Commanders are good at safety? The defense should be pretty complete, front to back.

Huh?  

 

Dude missed the gaping hole at LB. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Huh?  

 

Dude missed the gaping hole at LB. 

 

Bro, didn't you hear? LB's are the new fullback. They're dinosaurs! We're running a 5-0-6 formation baby!

 

For real though, I think draft pedigree plays into a lot of basic analysis and observation. Because Jamin was a 1st rounder there's "obviously" less worry there than safety with dual Day 3 picks.

[NoCalMike]

I feel like if just Chase or Sweat.....just one of the two.....turns into a beast this season, it will make a huge difference.  I kind of feel right now we are experiencing a little bit of deja vu from the Kerrigan/Orakpo era where both were solid but neither spectacular and while Kerrigan went on to have a very solid career, that duo never produced the type of havoc we all expected once they were a duo.

 

Chase & Sweat have both flashed their abilities at times, but it needs to be more consistent, especially considering both are in contract years.  Chase was not drafted to be good, he was drafted to be special and he is going to have to show something special this season. And on the other side, when Chase is being double (or sometimes even triple) teamed, Sweat has to do more to beat one-on-one match ups. 

[Warhead36]

With Donald starting to decline a bit I think one of our DTs will make All Pro. Maybe 2nd team, but one of them will make it.

[kingdaddy]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:34 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Huh?  

 

Dude missed the gaping hole at LB. 

He's clearly focusing on the positives.....with everything  great he said we may not even play any LB's. 

[RandyHolt]

OK so lets talk turnovers. THE FOCUS IS ON GETTING MORE TURNOVERS this year. We get it. We're stressing it. Yeah literally and figuratively.

 

Anyone care to share how that is expected to happen? Certainly talking about it won't make that stone hands "now we know why you are a DB vs WR" catch any better. Sure drafting Forbes should help but expecting one player alone to be a big difference maker is likely going to fail. Top INT corner league wide last year only had 6. DBs can certainly practice the tip drill, and work on their stone hands with simple practice.

 

Fumbles: I think it will come down to trying for strips without waiting until the final minute of a few games a year to try. We always hear "you can't go for a strip because you'll miss the tackle and give a TD" but what about the countless gang tackles where they is no chance of a guy breaking free?  I want Jamin whose tackling I guess anyways to go for FFs when others are wrapping up. Nut punch at the ball. The QB should also be a sitting duck for FF. We often see QBs sacked with no strip attempted. I don't think we will blitz much so it'll come down to Chase and Sweat It'll be easy to see if FF are more than being stressed. I want uppercuts and jabs at the ball as OL are rushing in to push the pile.  TEs always seem ripe for a punch from behind. I fret watching our TEs lumbering downfield... dont fumble!

 

INTs: I really think its pressure up front forcing bad throws versus drafting 1 ball hawk that will make a difference. How'd all the other ball hawks pan out, post ST? I contend they are improvising more than not and getting away with it. Jimmy Moreland. As QB completion % has soared decade to decade, INTs have plummeted. Batted Bloated Balls yeah lets not go there but it may help.

 

That all said I predict 5 INTs for Forbes which will lead the league and that we will be 20th overall in turnovers generated, vs 30th.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Chris 44]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:43 PM, FrFan said:

Commanders Camp Takeaways: Defense Looks Complete With Strong Line and Rookie Potential

The 24th team I’ve visited this summer is the one with new ownership and, seemingly, a whole new outlook. Here’s what I got from the Commanders …

 

 

3. Daron Payne and Jonathan Allen got to a point this summer where they made it hard for the offense to have productive practices. Allen, in particular, looks ready to take another step, with a new, refined set of pass-rush moves promising to take his game on passing downs to another level. And Payne, after getting his four-year, $90 million contract, has been his normal disruptive self, which should make the D-line here a bear to deal with. And even more so if the Commanders are right with their optimism on seventh-round rookie Andre Jones Jr., a physically imposing end who oozes potential and is built like the two teammates he is in a position group with (Chase Young and Montez Sweat).

 

 

The Andre Jones comment is interesting. Heard good things about him during camp but no idea how he really stacks up. Almost sounds according to this that he could be the air apparent if/when we lose either Chase or Sweat. Seriously doubt he has that potential but could you imagine if he could replace one of them as far as salary is concerned.  

[SkinsFTW]

27 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

That all said I predict 5 INTs for Forbes which will lead the league and that we will be 20th overall in turnovers generated, vs 30th.

 

 

 

I'd bet on him not having more than 2-3. Int's don't happen like they used to. QB's used to have 15-30 Int's a year. Now most of them are under 10. Hell Rodgers usually has under 5. 

[RandyHolt]

44 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I'd bet on him not having more than 2-3. Int's don't happen like they used to. QB's used to have 15-30 Int's a year. Now most of them are under 10. Hell Rodgers usually has under 5. 

I appreciate you sharing a prediction. Folks rarely closer to never dare to make simple stat predictions in the 2 week lull we face before game 1. People very bullish on Forbes to get INTs??? Put it out there what's your magic number.

 

I hear you though - you reinforce my belief that INTs dont grow on trees anymore and we should keep Forbes INT expectations in in check. i turned bullish because we had a guy with 4 last year so we were in the running, and because a first rounder simply creates that expectation to me. If ends up with 1 and is not an elite shutdown corner... is it a bad pick? No pun intended this time.

 

That all said I think turnovers comes ALL down to JDR.  Players want turnovers (logged on their ledger=$$$) more than we do as fans so they are stressing for them before JDR told them to. Its they only way they see their name in league leaders. Will he just tell players to FOCUS on them, or actually call defenses more often that create them? I am betting he wont and will blame the players for not stressing it enough if we end up yet again a cellar dweller.

 

Turnovers decide games more than many most? other aspects of the game.

Edited August 28, 2023 by RandyHolt

[DWinzit]

I expect the D to be top 3-5 and killing it with pressures, sacks, forced fumbles, balls knocked down, balls defended and their fair share of INT's and fumble recoveries. The better they are and if the offense can produce more points as they should, the more mistakes will be forced upon our competitors.