The Official ES 2021 Free Agency Thread / Tracker Fitzpatrick, Curtis Samuel, William Jackson, LB Mayo, C Larsen WR Humphries, CB D. Roberts, KR D. Carter , LT Charles Leno, S Bobby McCain signed

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

3) What's there to do with the savings?

When Moses switches uniforms, Washington will save nearly $8 million in cap space, and many believe that money can help Rivera lock up someone he does view as worth keeping.

Jonathan Allen's contract with the club expires after this year, and with the added flexibility that'll come from getting Moses off the books, perhaps Washington can ensure that he remains a fixture on its defensive line. 

Aside from Allen, there are others who will need to be taken care of soon. Moses' partner on the right side, Brandon Scherff, is currently on the franchise tag. Tim Settle, Logan Thomas, Ryan Fitzpatrick and JD McKissic also have deals that end next March. 

Unless something was up with Moses behind the scenes, one would assume that his impending exit is fueled by financial motivation. Expect his cash to be used elsewhere. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[UK Skins]

Is there a website or some other source that lists the arm length of all our O-linemen? I would be really interested to see that as I get the impression all of them are getting dinged for having short arms. Would be really curious who is best suited to play Tackle from that perspective.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

Is there a website or some other source that lists the arm length of all our O-linemen? I would be really interested to see that as I get the impression all of them are getting dinged for having short arms. Would be really curious who is best suited to play Tackle from that perspective.

 

It matters for tackles, guards not so much, as for tackles.

 

Cosmi 33

Leno 34.4

Lucas 36.75

 

some would say 33 is the ideal minimum for a tackle

 

Scherff 33.38

Roullier 32.25

Flowers 34.5

Edited May 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[UK Skins]

Damn you're good SIP, thanks!!

[DWinzit]

 

11 hours ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

Sure could use a douche emoji here... 

[Est.1974]

I though we’d engaged in talks with Jon Allen back in December around the time of the Roullier extension? Granted that is now 6 months ago 

 

I guess from a cap perspective moving on from Moses pays for Leno and McCain, likely with small change leftover too.

 

Feels like another move is being lined up to me....getting ready to pick someone up who is being moved on from elsewhere as a post June 1st maybe?

[Chris 44]

Not much out there on the Chris Miller signing.  Released by the Cardinals, CB, former Colorado Buffalo, also had him listed as a safety?

[Die Hard]

8 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Not much out there on the Chris Miller signing.  Released by the Cardinals, CB, former Colorado Buffalo, also had him listed as a safety?

I know the team has to fill roster spots.... but some of the signings on the 0-line and secondary this off-season are just strange.

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It matters for tackles, guards not so much, as for tackles.

 

Cosmi 33

Leno 34.4

Lucas 36.75

 

some would say 33 is the ideal minimum for a tackle

 

Scherff 33.38

Roullier 32.25

Flowers 34.5

 

It's thought to matter, because I think it's been accepted conventional wisdom for so long, I'm not sure it actually matters in reality when you really hold it up to scrutiny.  I remember doing this exercise a while back seeing if arm length really mattered and comparing arm lengths and there's plenty of good tackles out here with short arms.  Elite level guys with short arms, middling guys with long arms, etc.  PFF did a whole thing on it years ago.  If anything, it's short arms in conjunction with some other deficiency.

Edited May 19, 2021 by justice98

[Burgold]

All right... if we have to. Moses for Aaron Rogers and a conditional sixth rounder. Six if Aaron makes the team and a fifth if we make the playoffs. 
 

Sounds fair to me

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

It's thought to matter, because I think it's been accepted conventional wisdom for so long, I'm not sure it actually matters in reality when you really hold it up to scrutiny.  I remember doing this exercise a while back seeing if arm length really mattered and comparing arm lengths and there's plenty of good tackles out here with short arms.  Elite level guys with short arms, middling guys with long arms, etc.  PFF did a whole thing on it years ago.  If anything, it's short arms in conjunction with some other deficiency.

 

That's really the case on most metrics on spots with some exceptions.  It helps to have different attributes as a player. It's all part of the soup.  For O lineman in particular their level of athleticism has a correlation to success more so than other spots according to some studies.  I posted on the draft thread among other things the O lineman shuttle times which some purport has a statistical signifigant impact.  Still, it doesn't mean of course that the most athletic O lineman in the draft will be the best O lineman in the pros.  

 

Cosmi has what some say is the minimum ideal baseline arm length at 33 inc.  Some will say the baseline is fine at 32 inches because there are some success stories at that length.  Cosmi is also though a super athlete.  

 

The other spot with arm length mentioned in the soup is often D line for the same reason why people care about it at O line.  Ledyard who is one of my favorite draft analyists really went after Ryan Anderson as a prospect and got slammed back by Ryan and some WFT fans on twitter.  His contention on Ryan is its very unlikely for a D lineman with really short arms, really bad agility and really bad speed to succeed in the pros.  Thus far, he seems vindicated on that point.  And it plays into what you said its a metric in conjunction with others.

 

There isn't one metric that's the be all and end all. Obviously longer arm length doesn't = stud.   If so we'd have that guy in Lucas. But there is a reason why there is a conversation about arm length when it comes to evaluating tackles in particular left tackles.  Just like the fastest combine receiver doesn't equal to be the best receiver.  But everything being equal, its good to have as many attributes as possible.  Arm length is one of them.

 

The way PFF did it, from what I can tell they had primarily players from 33 inches to 36 at least at left tackle.  During the draft, the debate seems to usually be centered though on left tackle.  If so, I don't think PFF is making a major point in doing so.  Because I typically read concerns about short arm length versus just random comparisons about where the longer the arms the better the tackle.  The debate from what I can tell is about concerns if a tackles arms are too short.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/does-arm-length-affect-ot-play

Looking at the left tackle chart, all but 4 of the qualified players had arms between 33 and 36 inches long. Looking at right tackles, that number jumps to 13, and is apparent on both ends of the spectrum. So not only are the guys with tiny arms stuck on the right side, but so are the “long-limbed athletes”.

 

If we are going purely on athleticism, this was my breakdown before the draft

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

8 hours ago, The Rook said:

However, why spend $18M on a guard this year, when cutting a $8M tackle with basically the same questionable future?

 

Two things to consider:

1. Moses isn't the player Scherff is. He's not a pro-bowler, let alone an All-pro. Scherff is.

2. Do we have a ready replacement for Scherff? We do for Moses.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

LT: Leno, Christian

LG: Flowers, Charles

OC: Roullier, Ismael

RG: Scherff, Schweizer

RT: Cosmi, Lucas

 

Most of the players who are slated to make our opening 53 on the OL are flexible. Schweizer might end up being the LG3 and RG2 on the depth chart. But to make things even and pencil players in to where I think they'll end up on the 2-deep depth chart, the above would be MY guess. I don't know if we keep 10 OL. And unless Christian makes some otherworldly progress and suddenly realizes the potential we thought he had when we drafted him, I would expect that he's on the roster bubble, with Lucas backing up both LT and RT as the swing Tackle and Charles and Flowers flexibility to kick to OT allowing us to keep 3 OTs.

 

The Moses release/trade would get us to $21m in cap space this year and $54m in 2022.

I would also assume that whatever we extend Jonathan Allen for on an APY basis, his 2021 salary is unlikely to eclipse his 2021 hit of $10m, and let's just assume his 2022 hit is $15m. That drops the team's cap to $39m in 2022. Depending on how much we spend in-season (injuries a big hit there), I would expect we would likely roll at least $10m and as much as $14-15m into the 2022 cap. So even with an Allen extension on the books in 2021/2022, we're still probably staring at around $50m in cap space next year.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[CommDownMan]

Moses this year is surprising to me, was more expected next year.

I'd be curious if this is just a matter of cap money.  One post was suggested if Moses was unhappy about no guaranteed money.  Is there any way Rivera decided to offer trade option vs having another unhappy OT mess with chemistry/distraction?  Not a Trent level thing and pure speculation, but the between the timing of the news (both 2021, but also May vs after seeing how Cosmi/Lucas are holding down the right over the offseason).  

[Riggo-toni]

I like Jon Allen, but I don't see us having the cap space long term to keep him when he have Sweat, Young, Ioannidis, and Payne needing extensions sooner or later. It's not that he's not good, but we probably have to choose between him and Payne, and Payne gets my vote.  Ion man gets forgotten because he was injured last year, but he is as much a stud as any if our DTs.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

9 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

I like Jon Allen, but I don't see us having the cap space long term to keep him when he have Sweat, Young, Ioannidis, and Payne needing extensions sooner or later. It's not that he's not good, but we probably have to choose between him and Payne, and Payne gets my vote.  Ion man gets forgotten because he was injured last year, but he is as much a stud as any if our DTs.

 

It's all manageable. You extend Allen now through 2025. Payne through 2026. Sweat through 2027. Young through 2028.

 

You might just have 1-2 years where those 4 are all being paid big money. But you'll defnitely need to keep drafting and drafting well to make sure the talent is coming in behind these guys.

 

But there will ALWAYS be the Charles Lenos and Bobby McCains of this world who you can sign to come in and play for 1-2 years on the cheap on prove-it deals late in FA to round out a roster. So i'm not too concerned about paying studs and dealing with the trickle-down of that on the backend of the roster.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

My guess is the Allen extension comes in at around $20-21 million per year, so get ready for sticker shock. Based on some of the other IDL contracts I would expect the cap hits to be:

 

2021: $13m

2022: $16m

2023: $21m

2024: $24m

2025: $26m

 

FWIW, that impacts the team's cap space as follows with available cap space:

2021: $17m

2022: $39m

2023: 95m

2024: $173m

2025: $230m

 

*Note: Allen would be the only contract on the books for 2025, although that would be Jamin Davis' 5th year option year. We've got a lot of talent that is going to need to start being paid in 2023 and beyond. Fortunately we've got some young building blocks, but will need to continue drafting well in the coming years to keep the momentum going.

 

You can also see how getting a young rookie QB to be our franchise QB would be a huge boost in 2022 and beyond to our salary cap, whereas taking on a $40m a year guy like Watson would tie our hands quite a bit going forward.

 

I assume that 2022 cap number will be closer to $50m at the start of free agency once we roll some of this year's cap forward. And Collins would be a cut candidate next year to free up additional space if needed. But again, once Allen is extended, assuming we move on from Scherff, the only major re-signings in-house we should be expecting are Logan Thomas and maybe Tim Settle, with a need to go and get another LB, OT, OG and QB.

[HTTRDynasty]

32 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I would also assume that whatever we extend Jonathan Allen for on an APY basis, his 2021 salary is unlikely to eclipse his 2021 hit of $10m, and let's just assume his 2022 hit is $15m. That drops the team's cap to $39m in 2022. Depending on how much we spend in-season (injuries a big hit there), I would expect we would likely roll at least $10m and as much as $14-15m into the 2022 cap. So even with an Allen extension on the books in 2021/2022, we're still probably staring at around $50m in cap space next year.

 

I hope they're not planning to go on a FA spending spree for big names next offseason.  It's clear we're letting Scherff walk, and we'd be foolish to lose our 3rd round comp pick for him leaving.  Maybe the plan is to sign a few mid-tier and lower-tier guys and extend our own, while still having a good amount of cap space to roll over to 2023, which I think makes the most sense.

[Koolblue13]

11 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

It's all manageable. You extend Allen now through 2025. Payne through 2026. Sweat through 2027. Young through 2028.

 

You might just have 1-2 years where those 4 are all being paid big money. But you'll defnitely need to keep drafting and drafting well to make sure the talent is coming in behind these guys.

 

But there will ALWAYS be the Charles Lenos and Bobby McCains of this world who you can sign to come in and play for 1-2 years on the cheap on prove-it deals late in FA to round out a roster. So i'm not too concerned about paying studs and dealing with the trickle-down of that on the backend of the roster.

Exactly. We're building our Oline through the draft now and will keep our DLine together, which is our core, starting with Allen.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I hope they're not planning to go on a FA spending spree for big names next offseason.  It's clear we're letting Scherff walk, and we'd be foolish to lose our 3rd round comp pick for him leaving.  Maybe the plan is to sign a few mid-tier and lower-tier guys and extend our own, while still having a good amount of cap space to roll over to 2023, which I think makes the most sense.

 

Assumption 1: Cosmi is our 2021 RT and kicks to LT in 2022.

Assumption 2: Your starting two OGs in 2022 are two of Charles, Flowers, Schweizer

Assumption 3: Logan Thomas and Jon Allen are extended

Assumption 4: Jamin Davis is your long-term MIKE backer and Bostic is gone in 2022

 

Your holes are:

1. QB (Massive)

2. RT

3. LB

 

That's really it for immediate needs. Obviously other needs will emerge this season as players get hurt, under-perform, etc.

 

But the team set itself up very well to not need to make major moves in 2022 off-season outside of QB.

 

Sign a LB in FA as the only real "major acquisition"

 

With those above assumptions, and assuming that everyone either maintains their level of play and there's no major drop-off in play my expectations for the 2022 off-season assuming Allen is extended THIS off-season would be ...

 

1. Extend Logan Thomas at TE

2. Re-sign Cornelius Lucas to compete at RT

3. Sign a free agent LB to play next to Holcomb and Davis

4. Repeat McCain situation and bring in a FS to compete

5. Add a cheap backup Guard to compete with Flowers, Charles, Schweizer on the interior

 

Draft:

1. If picking Top 12, earmark 1st and 3rd to move up with future pick to get "guy"

2. If picking in bottom-half of draft, earmark 1st and 2nd and future pick to get "guy"

 

2nd or 3rd: OT

4th: Guard

Edited May 19, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[joeken24]

11 hours ago, HoggLife said:

I see talks that there isn't room for Julio Jones and his contract with Falcons. I know he's injury prone but he has a few good years left and I think he could put this offense over the top. Would you trade say Matt Ion and Moses for Julio? Really wouldn't hurt our offensive or Defensive lines and would give us another huge weapon on offense. 

Not Matt. Hell to naw. He's going to be a pro bowler this year. Or at least play like one.

Edited May 19, 2021 by joeken24
add

[CommanderInTheRye]

48 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

I like Jon Allen, but I don't see us having the cap space long term to keep him when he have Sweat, Young, Ioannidis, and Payne needing extensions sooner or later. It's not that he's not good, but we probably have to choose between him and Payne, and Payne gets my vote.  Ion man gets forgotten because he was injured last year, but he is as much a stud as any if our DTs.

 

 

I get you as far as "on the field" impact goes between Allen vs Payne.

 

But Allen is indespensible as the driving force of that lockerroom. In some ways he, along with Chase, are the perfect surrogates for Rivera. 

 

The coach alone can't adapt and maintain a  new culture. You need team leaders who COMPLETELY buy in to produce lasting change.

 

Allen and Rivera see eye to eye and work together as a unit.

 

The importance of that near symbiotic relationship can not be overemphasized.

 

While I hope and believe we can keep both Payne and Allen on the team longterm I would regretably have to make Allen the higher priority if it came to a binary choice between the two.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by TrancesWithWolves

[lovemaskins]

30 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

It's all manageable. You extend Allen now through 2025. Payne through 2026. Sweat through 2027. Young through 2028.

 

You might just have 1-2 years where those 4 are all being paid big money. But you'll defnitely need to keep drafting and drafting well to make sure the talent is coming in behind these guys.

 

But there will ALWAYS be the Charles Lenos and Bobby McCains of this world who you can sign to come in and play for 1-2 years on the cheap on prove-it deals late in FA to round out a roster. So i'm not too concerned about paying studs and dealing with the trickle-down of that on the backend of the roster.

Until you have to pay $35M + for a QB.  Right now we’re flexible cause Fitz is getting $10M. Get a real QB contract and heads start rolling.

That’s why I lean toward drafting a guy cause you get the rookie contract vice the   Dak / Mahommes deal that straps the team. I don’t think any team has won a championship after it’s paid the QB top money except Brady who takes a pay cut which is insane cause he wants it so badly. 

[justice98]

11 hours ago, HoggLife said:

I see talks that there isn't room for Julio Jones and his contract with Falcons. I know he's injury prone but he has a few good years left and I think he could put this offense over the top. Would you trade say Matt Ion and Moses for Julio? Really wouldn't hurt our offensive or Defensive lines and would give us another huge weapon on offense. 

 

I mean, prior to last year, he missed 4 games combined in the previous 6 years.