Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Tyrod Taylor would make Alex Smith look like a prime Brett Favre.  Matt Ryan, assuming the Falcons move on from him in the offseason, would be the ideal veteran get, IMO.  Then Stafford.  Hell, I wouldn't mind a Jacoby Brissett type placeholder (I guess Dalton would fall in this mix).  

 

IMO Matt Ryan is much more in the mold of a Kirk Cousins than Stafford is when it comes to actual playing style.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be upset with having Ryan but it would also depend on what we'd have to give up for him. He's 3 years older than Stafford and I wouldn't see us getting more than a couple of good years out of him so I don't think that would be worth a 1st rounder at all. For a 2nd I might kick the tires.

 

I'm completely uninterested in Taylor. If that's who we're looking at we might as well just stick with Allen/Smith/Heinicke and draft a guy. Brissett showed some flashes in 2019 so I might be interested in seeing what he's got but it's still much more likely that he'll end up a JAG.

 

9 minutes ago, rumplestilskin said:

The thing is Dak has a rising trajectory. He was on pace to shatter all time passing records this year and he is a young player assending in his prime. He's not going anywhere though so it's not worth discussing.

 

Dak is also coming back from a devastating compound fracture and dislocation of his ankle. There's no way to know if he'll ever be the same player (assuming he ever plays again). It's going to be a very interesting situation when it comes time for Dallas to decide what to do about him.

[Skinsinparadise]

I posted this elsewhere

 

Listening to Heinicke's college's coach right now on the radio, you'd think we got Joe Montana.   He's effusive about him.  Super athlete 4.6 speed.  He's super sharp, clutch, etc.   He's saying he's the only QB he's coached who is a 5 read guy.  The others are 1-2 reads.  But he's smart and quick and can run through his progressions fast.  He knows Scott Turner well and is saying he's a great match to his offense. 

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

IMO Matt Ryan is much more in the mold of a Kirk Cousins than Stafford is when it comes to actual playing style.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be upset with having Ryan but it would also depend on what we'd have to give up for him. He's 3 years older than Stafford and I wouldn't see us getting more than a couple of good years out of him so I don't think that would be worth a 1st rounder at all. For a 2nd I might kick the tires.

 

I am ok but not as excited about Ryan.  I also believe Ryan is 31-32 milion against the cap in 2021 and ditto in 2022.  Stafford would be 20 million in 2021 and 23 in 2022.

 

I agree Kirk and Ryan are more of the same ilk as for style than Kirk and Stafford.   I think what some might miss about Stafford is he makes plays when things break down.   He can throw off platform. 

 

I wouldn't pay through the nose for either Ryan or Stafford.  But I'd be OK with a first for Stafford.  I am not sure I would be for Ryan, I'd have to think about that some. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I posted this elsewhere

 

Listening to Heinicke's college's coach right now on the radio, you'd think we got Joe Montana.   He's effusive about him.  Super athlete 4.6 speed.  He's super sharp, clutch, etc.   He's saying he's the only QB he's coached who is a 5 read guy.  The others are 1-2 reads.  But he's smart and quick and can run through his progressions fast.  He knows Scott Turner well and is saying he's a great match to his offense. 

 

That's good stuff to hear.

 

But at the same time when was the last time a QB's college coach said "Eh, he's ok. Probably a backup in the NFL." about a guy coming out of his program?

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

That's good stuff to hear.

 

But at the same time when was the last time a QB's college coach said "Eh, he's ok. Probably a backup in the NFL." about a guy coming out of his program?

 

I know they tend to love their guys.  But this dude was so over the top it was a fun listen.  Grant joked afterwards hey maybe i should now be rooting for Heinicke to start over Alex. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know they tend to love their guys.  But this dude was so over the top it was a fun listen.  Grant joked afterwards hey maybe i should now be rooting for Heinicke to start over Alex. 

I am. I think Heinicke would be a real curve ball for the Eagles defense as opposed to Alex who will be mostly a game manager. Heinicke looked very confident out there and the team rallied around him. I would be fine if he starts over a hobbled Alex. Either way I think our defense gets it done in Philly on prime time tv. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know they tend to love their guys.  But this dude was so over the top it was a fun listen.  Grant joked afterwards hey maybe i should now be rooting for Heinicke to start over Alex. 

 

Yeah, fair point. I guess I'm just jaded and take that stuff with a grain of salt after hearing so many college coaches sing the praises of guys who ended up being crappy. I just don't like getting my hopes up I suppose. 

[Anselmheifer]

Ryan is too old and too expensive. 

[max21]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know they tend to love their guys.  But this dude was so over the top it was a fun listen.  Grant joked afterwards hey maybe i should now be rooting for Heinicke to start over Alex. 

Bobby wilder? Yeah he loved some Heinicke, pretty sure Taylor has the record for most pass yards in a FCS game at ODU with over like 700 yards in a game, though it was against a terrible school. He was a decent coach and was coaching ODU at the height of their success but eventually flamed out. 

[kingdaddy]

This team has looked so much better with anyone under center besides Dwayne Haskins that I think we forget how well they played for that stretch starting on Turkey Day. 

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

This team has looked so much better with anyone under center besides Dwayne Haskins that I think we forget how well they played for that stretch starting on Turkey Day. 

 

Eh, our Turkey Day route was mostly us gashing them on the ground with Gibson. Smith didn't do all that much. 149 yards passing with 1 TD and 1 INT.

 

Don't get me wrong...the offense clearly ran more smoothly when it was someone other than Haskins behind center, but let's not pretend like any of our other QBs are game changers.

Edited December 29, 2020 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah, fair point. I guess I'm just jaded and take that stuff with a grain of salt after hearing so many college coaches sing the praises of guys who ended up being crappy. I just don't like getting my hopes up I suppose. 

 

I get it.  I take it all with a grain of salt.   Hey some were taken by Josh Johnson.  You never know but these in and out of the league types don't typically end up franchise QBs out of the blue

 

If I had to pick a theme about my take on QBs is that I don't want to have a big roll of the dice on a flier at QB.  Maybe last year i would.  But with this defense which we have on the cheap, I want to be aggressive.

 

 

18 minutes ago, max21 said:

Bobby wilder? Yeah he loved some Heinicke, pretty sure Taylor has the record for most pass yards in a FCS game at ODU with over like 700 yards in a game, though it was against a terrible school. He was a decent coach and was coaching ODU at the height of their success but eventually flamed out. 

 

Assume so, I didn't catch his name

[Daniel.redskins]

No rookie. Unless M. Jones or Trask somehow slide to the 3rd. We can really solidify the o-line and linebackers this draft if we stay patient.  

As for a veteran, I would rather bring in a younger guy than an older more expensive guy. The last thing we need is to pay Stafford a **** ton and then he breaks his back in the preseason. I like Darnold it Mariota. At the very least, they would provide competition and depth for the guys we have (Allen, Heinike, Montez). 

[FrFan]

I hope we won't trade up for a QB this year. Maybe we can find a hidden gem in the later rounds, I'd like us to draft OT, G, CB, WR

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

No rookie. Unless M. Jones or Trask somehow slide to the 3rd. We can really solidify the o-line and linebackers this draft if we stay patient.  

As for a veteran, I would rather bring in a younger guy than an older more expensive guy. The last thing we need is to pay Stafford a **** ton and then he breaks his back in the preseason. I like Darnold it Mariota. At the very least, they would provide competition and depth for the guys we have (Allen, Heinike, Montez). 

 

Mariota is under contract this season so unless he gets cut (possible since there's no dead cap for him on his contract) we'd have to give something up. I'm pretty meh on him anyway.

 

Darnold I think may be a shell shocked lost cause at this point, but if the pick we'd have to give up for him is low enough I might think about it. I wouldn't give up any more than a 4th. Maybe a 3rd, but that's pushing it.

 

1 minute ago, FrFan said:

I hope we won't trade up for a QB this year. Maybe we can find a hidden gem in the later rounds, I'd like us to draft OT, G, CB, WR

 

I do like the optimism, but the "hidden gem" late round QB is super unlikely statistically. For every mid to late round QB who ends up becoming an NFL starter (not even a good one, just a starter) there are probably about 30 who do nothing. I'm fine with rolling the dice on high upside guys later in the draft, but assuming that it's going to net us anything other than a potential backup at best is a fool's errand IMO.

 

Much more likely to find a starting OL in mid to late rounds than starting QB.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I can't believe posters are suggesting failed retreads such as Cam Newton or Tyrod Tayler. There is a reason so many teams moved on from Taylor, he will never the the long term answer. If he is available my choice is Mathew Stafford and it's not even close. He is one of the most underrated QBs in the league, at 32 he has plenty left in the tank unlike Ryan who does resemble Kirk in big moments, he never seems to be able to pull out wins.  He always seems to come up short in all the close games the Falcons have lost the last few years and there have been a lot of close losses.  

[KDawg]

Ryan only if the compensation is under a 3rd and his cap hit is around 20M.

 

Stafford only if the compensation is a 2 or a 3 and his cap hit is around 20M. I could... maybe... be tempted by ONE 1 and nothing else. But I’m hesitant.

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I can't believe posters are suggesting failed retreads such as Cam Newton or Tyrod Tayler. There is a reason so many teams moved on from Taylor, he will never the the long term answer. If he is available my choice is Mathew Stafford and it's not even close. He is one of the most underrated QBs in the league, at 32 he has plenty left in the tank unlike Ryan who does resemble Kirk in big moments, he never seems to be able to pull out wins.  He always seems to come up short in all the close games the Falcons have lost the last few years and there have been a lot of close losses.  

 

People are suggesting retreads because there's a feeling of..."you know what you're gonna get with this guy"

 

I think everyone around here is tired of taking stabs in the dark with college quarterbacks, especially after the Haskins flameout.  

[Idaho fan]

I in no way want an overpriced vet.  QBs are causing us cap difficulties as is.  

 

My preferences...

A.  Bring back Kyle and draft (mid round) a prospect 

AND/OR

B.  Sign Mariota for a reasonable price and let he and Kyle battle it out.  Maybe we would get lucky like Titans did with Tannehill.  

 

Not excited about the contract numbers for a Ryan, Stafford etc.   No interest in Cam.  Winston has some upside but more down I think.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Idaho fan

[Warhead36]

I'd avoid Ryan. He's old now too(only a year younger than Smith)and will be expensive. He appears to be declining too. We'd be getting him at his absolute worst.

 

Tyrod Taylor is trash. The offense would be unwatchable with him. Ditto Cam Newton.

 

I get that people are afraid of developing another rookie but the best teams in the league for the most part all drafted and developed their guy and most of those guys are 1st rounders. You don't stop looking.

[KillBill26]

I've started to shift my thinking from being anti-acquiring Stafford due to cost, to thinking it is our best option.

 

Ive always been very impressed with Matt Stafford.   Even though his teams haven't been great, he is a very good qb.  I remember being very impressed with him when he led that comeback over the skins in detroit a few years back (I believe that was the game Matt jones fumbled at the goal line and we kept shooting ourselves in the foot).  But stafford took advantage of our mistakes and carried his team to victory.  Very impressive.  He is a legit, above average qb, who may be considered elite in a different environment.

 

The reason I have been anti stafford recently are two-fold: with AS coming back and leading the team on a recent win streak, I was thinking I'd rather stick with AS.  AS knows the system and the personnel, and we can't have both AS and MS, so no reason to give up draft capital and a big cap number for stafford.  However, with AS struggling to get back on the field with an injury they are saying is related to his leg injury, it's hard to feel AS is reliable moving forward.

 

Second, with stafford's variety of injuries, including fractures in his back last year, I felt he was an old 32, and I didn't want to give up assets for an injury prone, aging qb.  However, digging a little deeper, it seems if anything, MS has proven to be a tough qb who can play through his injuries.  He hasn't missed as many games as I thought.  The site Sportsinjurypredictor gives him a 5 for durability, the highest score you can receive.  This year he has proven the back issues aren't holding him back.

https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/matthew-stafford/2

 

Also, stafford has been stuck with some pretty bad defenses as of late.  Over the last 6 years, the lions have been bottom half of the league 5 times, with the last 2 seasons being 31st (in yards).  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/det/index.htm

 

Imagine stafford going from having to carry his team due to a bad defense, to just having to protect the football and keep the chains moving.  He could be just what we need.

 

It boils down to this for me: if the FO does their research, and determines that MS can play at a similar level for 5 more years (also needs to consider that his wife had brain surgery a year or two ago, if it takes a turn for the worse football will not be a priority for him, as it should be.  Just something we need to be aware of), that coincides perfectly with our young core being on cheap contracts.  Our window of opportunity may be closed past that.  Do we really want to gamble on a high draft pick during that window?  Once you've determined that young qb isn't the answer, your window is almost closed.  

 

I've started to change my thinking towards adding MS and parting ways with AS.  If MS can give us 5 years at his present level of play, he would absolutely be worth #19 overall.  Inserting an above average qb into this lineup, as well as addressing the rest of the holes with our cap space and remaining draft picks, we would be in a good position to make a title run.  It would be an exciting 5 years. 

 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

People are suggesting retreads because there's a feeling of..."you know what you're gonna get with this guy"

 

I think everyone around here is tired of taking stabs in the dark with college quarterbacks, especially after the Haskins flameout.  

I wouldn’t replace Allen with Taylor or Newton, though. Newton I’d be more inclined to do it with except I watched him play a few times this year and the guy looks like his arm merged with McNabb and Haskins and he’s either air mailing the ball or worm burning it no where near it’s intended target.

 

Our issue with the free agent approach has been we invest for too long and too much money on short term solutions that screw us over. And it’s always middle of the road or older guys.

 

Which is exactly what Taylor and Newton are respectively. 
 

If we take a swing in FA, you have to swing for a guy that’s proven. Right now there’s about two guys who fit that mold in my opinion: Prescott and Fitzpatrick. There are likely to be some stop gap types that are capable that we could look at short term (like Fitz). But guys like Taylor and Newton are more of the same. 
 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by KDawg

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I can't believe posters are suggesting failed retreads such as Cam Newton or Tyrod Tayler. There is a reason so many teams moved on from Taylor, he will never the the long term answer. If he is available my choice is Mathew Stafford and it's not even close. He is one of the most underrated QBs in the league, at 32 he has plenty left in the tank unlike Ryan who does resemble Kirk in big moments, he never seems to be able to pull out wins.  He always seems to come up short in all the close games the Falcons have lost the last few years and there have been a lot of close losses.  

 

Yeah the Cam thing has always been a bit perplexing to me. That's especially true now that he's flamed out in NE.

 

Outside of 1 season he's never been anything more than a completely mediocre NFL passer. His biggest weapon was his threat to use his legs and that isn't much of a factor anymore it seems. He's forced to rely on his arm now and he basically sucks at it.

 

The fact that Rivera likely could have had him if he wanted him and instead chose to give up a draft pick for a UDFA from Carolina speaks volumes IMO. 

 

4 minutes ago, Idaho fan said:

I in no way want an overpriced vet.  QBs are causing us cap difficulties as is.  

 

My preferences...

A.  Bring back Kyle and draft (mid round) a prospect 

AND/OR

B.  Sign Mariota for a reasonable price and let he and Kyle battle it out.  Maybe we would get lucky like Titans did with Tannehill.  

 

Not excited about the contract numbers for a Ryan, Stafford etc.   No interest in Cam.  Winston has some upside but more down I think.

 

I do get the theory here, but in reality what this means is we'll likely just have a team full of backup QBs. 

 

Again.

Edited December 29, 2020 by mistertim

[KDawg]

RE: Stafford- cost is important to note. If it’s anything more than one draft choice in the first two days of the draft it’s too much. He’s an excellent player but his injuries are happening. He plays through them but he has been REALLY banged up. And when you play through that stuff your body wears down. Stafford could be nearing the end despite him being younger. He’s taken a hellacious beating. Taking on that cap and trading too much is setting ourselves up for failure.

 

I’d look at a move for Stafford at a high cost (definition provided above) as a front office blunder. Others feel differently, and that is fair. He is a hell of a player. 
 

But I’m not interested in self sabotage.

[Est.1974]

I think the answer is trade up for Lance, cost being determined by whether we win the division or not. High ceiling, in fact very high ceiling. Go for it, spend that cap space wisely first.

[TheGoodBits]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

RE: Stafford- cost is important to note. If it’s anything more than one draft choice in the first two days of the draft it’s too much. He’s an excellent player but his injuries are happening. He plays through them but he has been REALLY banged up. And when you play through that stuff your body wears down. Stafford could be nearing the end despite him being younger. He’s taken a hellacious beating. Taking on that cap and trading too much is setting ourselves up for failure.

 

I’d look at a move for Stafford at a high cost (definition provided above) as a front office blunder. Others feel differently, and that is fair. He is a hell of a player. 
 

But I’m not interested in self sabotage.

Stafford doesn’t have much of an injury history before this year though. Rated “most durable” by this site. https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/matthew-stafford/2