Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[TheGoodBits]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

More from the PFF guys

 

They think Stafford is an underrated QB.  One PFF dude thinks he won't hit the trade market, the other thinks he might

 

They think Atlanta should try to unload Matt Ryan

 

They think Lance doesn't get past both Carolina and Denver

 

 

 

Ryan, Stafford, and Derek Carr (in that order) are my preferred QBs for 2021. The first two will probably take a 1st round pick to acquire. Worth it to me, if it’s pick 19. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Baldinger's enthusiasm for this defense is what especially drives me to go get a Qb.  As one stat geek talked about recently on a radio show, the fact that the defense is ranked so highly is much more impressive considering the struggles of the offense.  And if you add some offensive firepower it should ironically help surcharge that defense more.  It's basic math.  If your offense keeps putting you back on the field, the opposing offense has more opportunities to score.  And it tires your defense to boot.  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Jericho]

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

We need make a serious investment at QB in 2021, which may come in a variety of ways,

 

a - placeholder vet on a 2/3 year short term 15mil per year deal, plus also drafting a round 1 or 2 QB that requires time.

 

b - a move for a high end veteran QB that involves draft picks traded plus a larger contract.

 

c - a major trade up in the draft that requires multiple day 1 and 2 picks. Kyle Allen keep the seat warm for a while.

 

Option a doesn't sound like a serious investment. That's a Mike Glennon type contract. Or more recently Jacoby Brissett. $15 million buys you guys no one want wants as a starter and probably should be a back-up. Which, is probably an improvement over the current roster, but if that's the major "splash" at the position, likely still leaves you with one of the worst QB rooms in football.

 

Option b depends on who is really available and cost. Stafford might be the one guy that's plausible here, if the Lions make him available. Matt Ryan could be too, but he's several years older and there's a serious question as to what level Matt Ryan is for 2021 and beyond. I'd also point out that in more modern times this move rarely works out for the team acquiring the QB. You're kind of at the mercy of the market and unless the answer is Stafford here, most likely it still leaves the team with one of the worst QB rooms in football.

 

Option c is likely the only one that makes any long-term difference. Of course its very risky and can cut both ways. Lots of moving parts here, but there's a good chance any trade would be for the third or fourth best QB prospect in the draft. You only really make that move if you really love a guy. and you got to hope all the other QB needy teams don't like that same guy. It would work out, but could backfire huge. Darnold and Rosen are two recent backfires, Trubisky and even guys like Goff and Wentz come to mind. It's frankly the best option on the board, but still one unlikely to move the needle much in 2021 and very unclear beyond that.

 

So...I guess I vote Option c for now, though you can see how the free agent and trade markets shake out.

[method man]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The irony is your take seems Larry Michael like not so much mine. I've exchanged emails with Larry and met him multiple times.  He'd be on board with your O line, O line, O line take and make due with what we got at QB.

 

To each their own.   This defense is better than it was when Larry was here.  This isn't the 80s/early 90s.  If it were I'd agree with you.  

 

OK you think Stafford is meh so who would you aim for?

Agreed on OL. Upgrade LT if you can and try to bring Scherff/Roullier back. If either/both leave, I am hopeful about Charles/Ismael

[Jericho]

This is nice summary:

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, method man said:

Agreed on OL. Upgrade LT if you can and try to bring Scherff/Roullier back. If either/both leave, I am hopeful about Charles/Ismael

 

The O line looked atrocious early in the season with Haskins but otherwise it played well.  Right now we are above average on the O line really at every spot outside of LT and even LT is far from a disaster.

 

I never mind upgrading the O line.  But its not the top need on this team right now IMO.    We have 4 picks in the top 3 rounds.  We got good cap room.   We can try to fix QB, WR, MLB at the same time and more. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The O line looked atrocious early in the season with Haskins but otherwise it played well.  Right now we are above average on the O line really at every spot outside of LT and even LT is far from a disaster.

 

I never mind upgrading the O line.  But its not the top need on this team right now IMO.    We have 4 picks in the top 3 rounds.  We got good cap room.   We can try to fix QB, WR, MLB at the same time and more. 

 

 

 

Issue is he is a terrible run blocker because he is so unathletic. He is Ty Nsekhe 2.0, perfect swing guy but shouldn’t start. If you can get an upgrade in FA or the draft, it is worth looking into. Reiff is an interesting FA. He is throughly average but I believe be can be a solid LT and he can also play guard. Not going to break the bank eithet

Edited December 29, 2020 by method man

[Skinsinparadise]

Among the FA possibilities, none of whom I love, I think I'd take Tyrod Taylor over Brissett.   Taylor brings some serious mobility.   Don't love him but FA pickings are slim.  

 

 

 

To that end, Taylor believes his unique skill set fits what the Chargers hope to do on offense. Unlike Rivers, who played virtually his entire career from the pocket, Taylor's speed and ability to throw on the run allow the team to utilize pistol option, bootlegs, and moving pockets. Taylor can factor in the ground game as well. During his three seasons as the Buffalo Bills' starter, he recorded 1,575 rushing yards and 14 touchdowns.

"The more success that the dual-threat guys are having, coaches are looking to build a scheme around that. Because of how dangerous you can be. With the right person back there -- and I believe I am the right person back there -- it makes your team even more dangerous."

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/chargers/news/chargers-tyrod-taylor-dual-threat-quarterback-revolution

5 minutes ago, method man said:

Issue is he is a terrible run blocker because he is so unathletic. He is Ty Nsekhe 2.0, perfect swing guy but shouldn’t start. If you can get an upgrade in FA or the draft, it is worth looking into. Reiff is an interesting FA. He is throughly average but I believe be can be a solid LT and he can also play guard. Not going to break the bank eithet

 

Yeah the LT spot is the one I'd upgrade, I talked about it plenty on the draft thread but I wouldn't do that at the expense of Qb.  But again I think we can serve multiple masters this off season. 

[mhd24]

If we’re going for some realistically in FA, than Fitzpatrick is the guy.  Otherwise, just roll with Kyle Allen and maybe Heineke of you can’t trade for a clear upgrade assuming Alex retires.  Use the picks to upgrade the team and use next years draft to target the qb

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, method man said:

Issue is he is a terrible run blocker because he is so unathletic. He is Ty Nsekhe 2.0, perfect swing guy but shouldn’t start. If you can get an upgrade in FA or the draft, it is worth looking into. Reiff is an interesting FA. He is throughly average but I believe be can be a solid LT and he can also play guard. Not going to break the bank eithet

 

PFF wise, he's an ok run blocker as opposed to terrible.  I agree though we can upgrade but I don't see the O line as the code red spot on the team the way I once did at the beginning of the season.  the grades on the far right are for run blocking. 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Bacon]

I firmly believe we can win a ring with Stafford. 

 

 

 

The throws he can make while getting players open with his eyes and ball location are elite level. We have never had a QB this good in my lifetime. Go get him if he's available and watch what happens. 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

13 minutes ago, Jericho said:

This is nice summary:

 

 

I'd take exception to the first category. They're are guys who have shown something outside the first. Kyle Allen, CJ Beathard, Nick Mullins, Brissett, Lock, Rypien, Rudolph, Byron Allen now. These guys aren't exceptional but they're showing something. The question is will a team ever invest in them or will they have to keep getting a chance by the luck of the draw and outperforming expectations? 

[Jericho]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

I'd take exception to the first category. They're are guys who have shown something outside the first. Kyle Allen, CJ Beathard, Nick Mullins, Brissett, Lock, Rypien, Rudolph, Byron Allen now. These guys aren't exceptional but they're showing something. The question is will a team ever invest in them or will they have to keep getting a chance by the luck of the draw and outperforming expectations? 

 

Half those guys their existing teams gave up on them: Allen (was traded for little by Carolina), Brissett (traded by New England for not much), and Rypien (cut twice by Drnver). Byron Allen? Not sure who you are talking about, but I'm guess Brandon Allen. The guy that was cut multiple times by multiple teams and freely available to any team half way through this season? Neither Beathard or Nick Mullins have proven anything over any sustained period. Rudolph was terrible filling in for Big Ben last year. Pretty comfortable saying there are zero starters in there. Just because one guy looked briefly good against the Jacksonville Jaguars doesn't mean much.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

Half those guys their existing teams gave up on them: Allen (was traded for little by Carolina), Brissett (traded by New England for not much), and Rypien (cut twice by Drnver). Byron Allen? Not sure who you are talking about, but I'm guess Brandon Allen. The guy that was cut multiple times by multiple teams and freely available to any team half way through this season? Neither Beathard or Nick Mullins have proven anything over any sustained period. Rudolph was terrible filling in for Big Ben last year. Pretty comfortable saying there are zero starters in there. Just because one guy looked briefly good against the Jacksonville Jaguars doesn't mean much.

 

I'm just saying that they're all young QBs who have put up decent records in this league. We can go back to one of my favorite QBs of the post SB Era Skins in Trent Green and see a guy who was cut multiple times before being given a chance, but when he did play well (even if it wasn't all pro) STL and Wash decided to build around him as their guy. He went to STL got injured and had to go to KC, but getting cut doesn't mean much. 

 

What I'm mainly saying is that for some of these guys the story is not written yet. I doubt that Brissett or Rypien or Allen become all pros or franchise guys but Allen just beat Pitt as a guy off the streets. Not necessarily somebody I want to build a bust for in Canton but somebody that maybe can develop into a legit starter if we're patient with him. 

 

We have to remember that guys like Dak and Kirk and even Russell weren't these $30 mil QBs overnight. They were aided by good defenses or good running games or coaches who let them learn through their mistakes like 4 INT games. 

[Est.1974]

5 hours ago, mhd24 said:

If we’re going for some realistically in FA, than Fitzpatrick is the guy.  Otherwise, just roll with Kyle Allen and maybe Heineke of you can’t trade for a clear upgrade assuming Alex retires.  Use the picks to upgrade the team and use next years draft to target the qb

Miami should throw cash at Fitzpatrick to stick around. Invaluable depth behind Tua. They are stacked with draft picks, ideal set up for them.

5 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

Option a doesn't sound like a serious investment. That's a Mike Glennon type contract. Or more recently Jacoby Brissett. $15 million buys you guys no one want wants as a starter and probably should be a back-up. Which, is probably an improvement over the current roster, but if that's the major "splash" at the position, likely still leaves you with one of the worst QB rooms in football.

by serious investment I mean more than money, it’s the mid tier contract, plus using a first rounder on say Lance, then actually developing him over 12-18 months into a NFL ready QB. 

[PartyPosse]

I said it once and I’ll say it again...

 

Aaron F’in Rodgers

[TheShredder]

I know there's going to be some vets out there, but that vet will need to fit somewhat into the scheme that's begun.

[Est.1974]

I honestly think Kyle Allen gets us to 8-8 if we improved the skill positions, in particular at receiver.

 

Thats the benchmark for me. If we are serious about upgrading at QB, go find a guy that gets you to 12-4 on a regular basis. Make that significant investment .

[@DCGoldPants]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The irony is your take seems Larry Michael like not so much mine. I've exchanged emails with Larry and met him multiple times.  He'd be on board with your O line, O line, O line take and make due with what we got at QB.

 

To each their own.   This defense is better than it was when Larry was here.  This isn't the 80s/early 90s.  If it were I'd agree with you.

 

That's not how Larry worked. Anything ok was "amazing" on this team and anything terrible he upgraded to ok. The defense IS better IMO. That was an example of using a rating in paper and putting it in perspective. Last week on the final drive, Moses goes out and Seattle doesn't even bother overloading on that side. They get past both tackles for 2 sacks in a row before the former QB here about even plant and set. Alex would have been killed back there. 

 

Larry wouldn't be on board with OL OL OL. He never talked like that. He'd be telling us Jason Campbell is his pick this week to beat Peyton Manning because Manning is due for a bad game or injury or whatever. Do you know who Larry is? It's not about wanting a position. It's about overselling average or below average already here. 🤦‍♂️ 

Edited December 29, 2020 by @SkinsGoldPants

[Est.1974]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've exchanged emails with Larry and met him multiple times. 

Current climate, you may want to edit that out.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

That's not how Larry worked. Anything ok was "amazing" on this team and anything terrible he upgraded to ok. The defense IS better IMO. That was an example of using a rating in paper and not putting it in perspective. Last week on the final drive, Moses goes out and Seattle doesn't even bother overloading on that side. They get past both tackles for 2 sacks in a row before the former QB here about even plant and set. Alex would have been killed back there. 

 

Larry wouldn't be on board with OL OL OL. He'd be telling us Jason Campbell is his pick the week to beat Peyton Manning because Manning is due for a bad game or injury or whatever. Do you know who Larry is? It's not about wanting a position. It's about overselling average or below average already here. 🤦‍♂️ 

 

Larry would be very on board with your O line, O line, O line point.    I exchanged emails with Larry here and there about football starting from when he and Bram did a show called Redskins Lunch.  I recall his takes very well.  I would even call into the show and talk football with him.  And his philosophy of building the team almost identically mirrored your thoughts of keep building the O line and then find your Rypien.  The QB isn't the be all and end all.  O line is key.  He'd talk it up on Redskins Nation, too.  You two would be cousins on that.   That was his philosophy.  You apparently see it similar.  Doesn't make either of you wrong.  I just disagree with it.  To me that's 20th Century football not 21st century so much.  On occasion a team can win a SB that way still but its not the prevailing approach. You need a QB in a bigger way now then you did then.  

 

As for Larry being optimistic about the team's roster and them winning.  Sure.  But that's a different subject.  

 

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Current climate, you may want to edit that out.

 

lol, Larry has met many fans I am sure.  I know nothing about all the WP stuff.  It's not like we are pals.  😀

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

I think this team has 3 QBs on it next year.  One is Allen, Heinicke and vet or draft choice.

[@DCGoldPants]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Larry being optimistic about the team's roster and them winning.  Sure.  But that's a different subject.  

 

 

That literally is the subject I was talking about. Everything you wrote before this about his private emails to you were 180 from his public facing persona is the different subject. That radio show is where he picked Campbell over Manning before a game. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

That literally is the subject I was talking about. Everything you wrote before this about his private emails to you were 180 from his public facing persona is the different subject. That radio show is where he picked Campbell over Manning before a game. 

 

OK I don't think anyone would argue against the idea that the dude was the ultimate homer.  I thought you were saying Larry would agree with me to chase a QB versus your emphasis on O line.  My response was actually I think he'd agree with your point actually about O line above all else since that seemed to be his football mantra.  But if that wasn't your point, then I misunderstood, sorry. 

[@DCGoldPants]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK I don't think anyone would argue against the idea that the dude was the ultimate homer.  I thought you were saying Larry would agree with me to chase a QB versus your emphasis on O line.  My response was actually I think he'd agree with your point actually about O line above all else since that seemed to be his football mantra.  But if that wasn't your point, then I misunderstood, sorry. 

No problem 🍻