Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[KDawg]

4 hours ago, Ball Security said:

I don’t disagree.  We’re not going to find a long term solution in FA.  They need to evaluate if they are better options than Allen and Heinicke (which I think is possible).

Have you studied Newman?  On paper he seems intriguing as a guy you could get in the third or fourth and develop at an appropriate pace while keeping your 1st and 2nd.

He’s in my second tier of QBs right now. He, Shane Buechele (I struggle spelling the SMU QBs name  ) and Holton Ahlers are my unheralded second tier gems. 
 

I’d rather have any of those guys than Trask. Mac is a toss up with them. I don’t think Mac has the same upside as those guys though.

Edited December 29, 2020 by KDawg

[kingdaddy]

Heres a great hypothetical question:

What if New England granted Cam Newton his release today,  do you put in a waiver claim on him?

Maybe Cam goes into BB's office and asks for his release and BB throws him a bone and grants it so he can try and hook on with the Rams, Arizona or WFT if they are interested? Would you put in a claim. All three of these teams now have QB issues/ injuries....

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I like Stafford, I think he's one of the better QBs of the last 20 years. I hope he gets off the Lions and has a great life.

 

I don't want to over pay an old QB and I don't want to throw draft capital away to do it.

 

I want to build a team. A complete team, with good rotation of depth players so we aren't stuck with trying to pay a bunch of high end star contracts.

 

Develop a QB and let them drive a good running machine instead of giving them a broken car and expecting a ride.

 

I don't think 32 is old for a QB these days. Stafford will be 33 when this coming season starts. Given the shelf life of most good NFL QBs nowadays, I don't necessarily see a reason why we couldn't get a good 4 years or more out of him. His last 2 seasons he's had injuries, so that's obviously going to be something to note and a potential cause for concern. But he'd also been playing at an All-Pro level in 2019 and 2020 before he got hurt, so clearly his skill hasn't been on the downslope.

Edited December 29, 2020 by mistertim

[Fat Stupid Loser]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don't hate the idea of Stafford, but isn't he going to be asking for a new contract from wherever he ends up?  A new contract that is likely to be very large.  

 

I realize we have the money, but last I checked there are a lot of WFT fans that are scared beyond belief of spending a lot on a QB.  Particularly one who has lost a lot of games in his career.

And never won a playoff game. I mean, he is more of a Kirk Cousins than Kirk Cousins is.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a Kirk leg humper, but Stafford here, really?

Edited December 29, 2020 by Fat Stupid Loser

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Would he, though?

 

I mean I don’t think there are many that doubt Stafford’s ability. 
 

It’s the trade compensation. 

Hasnt Stafford had more injuries than Evil Kneivel did on his motorcycle. Would we be paying a heavy price for a car with lots of miles and repairs? I'd sooner sign a free agent then trade picks for Stafford... 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

There’s a reason Tyrod Taylor hasn’t started for more than a few games in his last few stops and he only started with significant time with Buffalo who refused to budge on him for 3 years for whatever reason. 
 

He’s one of the bottom tier options in my eyes. I really just don’t want him UNLESS he’s a pure stop gap to give the keys to a rookie fairly quickly.

 

 

Like I've been saying I don't love any of the FA options.  I don't even really like them either.   If I did, I wouldn't be so gung ho about trading for Stafford.  If i was into a FA then of course I'd take a player for free over trading assets. 😀

 

But if I had to pick off of the FA pool albeit I am not excited about any of them -- it would be Fitzpatrick and Taylor as my top choices.  If I was jazzed about either one, I wouldn't be supportive of any trade for a veteran.   Both players to me are roll of the dices for different reasons. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

And never won a playoff game. I mean, he is more of a Kirk Cousins than Kirk Cousins is.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a Kirk leg humper, but Stafford here, really?

 

Kirk Cousins is oddly maybe the most polarizing player we've ever had or close enough.  So its dangerous turf to tread on.  And I like Kirk.  Didn't love him but liked him and I oddly took more arrows for that take than any position I've ever taken. 

 

Having said all that, I am not faulting Stafford for having a crap team around him.  I am not into wins and loses are all about the QB.  Kirk to me is an over acheiver versus an insanely talented QB.  Stafford has a rocket, one of the strongest arms in the league.  He's more mobile than Kirk.  The biggest hit on Kirk that I agree with albeit I think some take the point too far is that he's not clutch.  Stafford actually is big time clutch.  You aren't going to see Kirk ranked as the 31st best player in the NFL by his peers like they ranked Stafford. Stafford IMO >>>> Kirk. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

21 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Hasnt Stafford had more injuries than Evil Kneivel did on his motorcycle. Would we be paying a heavy price for a car with lots of miles and repairs? I'd sooner sign a free agent then trade picks for Stafford... 

 

Outside of his injury last season Stafford is actually one of the sturdiest vet QBs playing. Dude has been dinged up plenty but he's tough as nails and plays through pain.

 

Who in the world are we going to get in FA? Trubisky? The corpse of Rivers? Winston? Cam? Please. If that's the pool we're choosing from we might as well just roll with Allen/Smith/Heinicke and hope that our defense continues to be good enough to propel us to an 8-8 or 9-7 season and a wildcard spot if the NFCE continues to be a league laughing stock. 

 

And I don't really get the Cousins comparison. Stafford is about 5 times as talented and excels at making plays when things break down and there's nothing there, which is basically the opposite of Kirk.

 

I'm not saying I want to give up the farm for Stafford. But if the question is whether I want to give up multiple 1st rounders to move up and draft a young guy (the likely price to move into the top 5) or give up one 1st rounder for Stafford, I'd generally be more inclined toward the latter option. I really like the 3 top QB prospects (IMO Lawrence, Wilson, Fields) but outside of Lawrence I'm not convinced that it would be worth a blockbuster trade.

 

Perhaps Lance will fall to us. I have doubts but given his small sample size, coming from a small school, and the soaring stock of Wilson, it's possible. I wouldn't be against taking him if we stood pat, but I'm not interested in trading up for him. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Would he, though?

 

I mean I don’t think there are many that doubt Stafford’s ability. 
 

It’s the trade compensation. 

 

The trade compensation is part of the sauce so you can't really separate the two.  If you want to reach further up (arguably) for a very talented QB you typically got to pay more.   I didn't dislike Alex Smith at the time of the trade. I liked him but didn't love him.   I didn't like though the match of a veteran to the roster at the time along with the compensation.  So that translated to me hating the deal.  

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Anselmheifer]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kirk Cousins is oddly maybe the most polarizing player we've ever had or close enough.  So its dangerous turf to tread on.  And I like Kirk.  Didn't love him but liked him and I oddly took more arrows for that take than any position I've ever taken. 

 

Having said all that, I am not faulting Stafford for having a crap team around him.  I am not into wins and loses are all about the QB.  Kirk to me is an over acheiver versus an insanely talented QB.  Stafford has a rocket, one of the strongest arms in the league.  He's more mobile than Kirk.  The biggest hit on Kirk that I agree with albeit I think some take the point too far is that he's not clutch.  Stafford actually is big time clutch.  You aren't going to see Kirk ranked as the 31st best player in the NFL by his peers like they ranked Stafford. Stafford IMO >>>> Kirk. 

Stafford and our defense, and a couple wise additions in FA and the draft, and I don't think there is a better team in the NFC. Imagine our defense with an offense that puts pressure on other offenses to score. 

 

Stafford for 1st and 3rd. Kadarius Toney in Rd 2. Jevonte Williams in the 3rd. a FA receiver. That's a high powered offense to go with our high powered defense. 

[DJHJR86]

I'm seeing many fans all over the internet who are adamant that the Vikings got a stat padding garbage time quarterback who won't take you anywhere in the playoffs suddenly drooling at the prospect of potentially landing Matthew Stafford last year.  It's amazing.  His nickname is "Stat Paddford" for a reason.  The dude has never won a playoff game.  

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

Stafford and our defense, and a couple wise additions in FA and the draft, and I don't think there is a better team in the NFC. Imagine our defense with an offense that puts pressure on other offenses to score. 

 

Stafford for 1st and 3rd. Kadarius Toney in Rd 2. Jevonte Williams in the 3rd. a FA receiver. That's a high powered offense to go with our high powered defense. 

 

 

I forgot the name of the stat guy who talked about it on air but he stressed hard its very difficult to have a high ranked defense with an inept offense.  In other words, the defense if anything might be better than it looks.

 

If the opposing offense have 14 drives to score and put up yards that's much harder to stop than one has 9 drives to score and put up yards.  An offense that's often 3 and out puts a ton of stress on a defense including fatigue.  If we can get this offense right it should have a ripple effect.  

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

And never won a playoff game. I mean, he is more of a Kirk Cousins than Kirk Cousins is.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a Kirk leg humper, but Stafford here, really?

I'm not even against bringing Stafford here, barring giving up significant draft capital or signing him to a big, new contract.  I see value in QB's that are pro's that take the gig seriously and can make all the throws, even if their overall W/L record isn't good or they haven't won any big games.

 

But yeah, I guess that's where I find the irony here.  Seeing folks that were hellbent on Kirk not winning games as to why he's not worth the money, yet somehow Stafford is worth the money when he hasn't won any big games either.  The two guys have quite a bit in common.

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But yeah, I guess that's where I find the irony here.  Seeing folks that were hellbent on Kirk not winning games as to why he's not worth the money, yet somehow Stafford is worth the money when he hasn't won any big games either.  The two guys have quite a bit in common.

 

The same goes for people who really want to sign Dak and bring him in.  Prescott has exactly 1 playoff win and has thrown for over 4000 yards once and over 25 touchdowns once.    

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Outside of his injury last season Stafford is actually one of the sturdiest vet QBs playing. Dude has been dinged up plenty but he's tough as nails and plays through pain.

 

Who in the world are we going to get in FA? Trubisky? The corpse of Rivers? Winston? Cam? Please. If that's the pool we're choosing from we might as well just roll with Allen/Smith/Heinicke and hope that our defense continues to be good enough to propel us to an 8-8 or 9-6 season and a wildcard spot if the NFCE continues to be a league laughing stock. 

 

 

That's my bottom line.  

 

I'd rather have Mahomes, and Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson among others over Stafford. 😀  Or name that ideal scenario like trading up in the draft for a ham sandwich for Wilson or Fields.  But our choices in reality might be Stafford, Fitzpatrick, Mac Jones , T. Taylor, and Winston or something like that.  That might be best case.   The irony if anything is Stafford might be the high mark fantasy.  He might not be on the trade market. 

 

Maybe Fitzpatrick returns to the Dolphins.  The argument could be who do we love most T. Taylor, Winston, Dalton or Jamie Newman in the 2nd or whatever.  But there is a good chance its not going to be anything sexy. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

Tyrod Taylor would make Alex Smith look like a prime Brett Favre.  Matt Ryan, assuming the Falcons move on from him in the offseason, would be the ideal veteran get, IMO.  Then Stafford.  Hell, I wouldn't mind a Jacoby Brissett type placeholder (I guess Dalton would fall in this mix).  

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The same goes for people who really want to sign Dak and bring him in.  Prescott has exactly 1 playoff win and has thrown for over 4000 yards once and over 25 touchdowns once.    

Cant judge QB's totally on their playoff record but chances are that any vet we trade for or sign will be flawed in some respect. Would you rather have Dak, Stafford, Cousins, Newton or Foles? Newton and Foles have both had more playoff success than the firts two have?

Its all about who best fits the culture, offense and needs of the team plus what you'd have to pay to get the guy. 

Maybe RR and Turner want Kyle Allen back and draft a rookie? Who knows.

This is all fun to debate but I hope we arent in this spot again next December. 

[Est.1974]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe Fitzpatrick returns to the Dolphins.  The argument could be who do we love most T. Taylor, Winston, Dalton or Jamie Newman in the 2nd or whatever.  But there is a good chance its not going to be anything sexy

Miami should pay Fitz good money to stay. Insurance for Tua whilst they load up.

 

Brissett seems like the ‘best’ mid tier option to me.

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Maybe RR and Turner want Kyle Allen back and draft a rookie?

 

This is my #1 preferred scenario.  

[rumplestilskin]

6 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The same goes for people who really want to sign Dak and bring him in.  Prescott has exactly 1 playoff win and has thrown for over 4000 yards once and over 25 touchdowns once.    

The thing is Dak has a rising trajectory. He was on pace to shatter all time passing records this year and he is a young player assending in his prime. He's not going anywhere though so it's not worth discussing.

[Anselmheifer]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I forgot the name of the stat guy who talked about it on air but he stressed hard its very difficult to have a high ranked defense with an inept offense.  In other words, the defense if anything might be better than it looks.

 

If the opposing offense have 14 drives to score and put up yards that's much harder to stop than one has 9 drives to score and put up yards.  An offense that's often 3 and out puts a ton of stress on a defense including fatigue.  If we can get this offense right it should have a ripple effect.  

 

 

Yes. And in addition to 3 and outs and fatigue, teams aren't pressed to pass to put up points. Opposing teams generally always have the option of a balanced attack and are almost never in come from behind mode. If we could give the DL a chance to pin it's ears back...

 

20 minutes ago, BayouBrave86 said:

Can we get a stud MLB for this defense? That is the missing piece.

 

Made me wonder if there is a package deal to be had for Darnold and CJ Mosley. Wouldn't be my favorite scenario, but I'd be intrigued. 

 

[Est.1974]

18 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The same goes for people who really want to sign Dak and bring him in.  Prescott has exactly 1 playoff win and has thrown for over 4000 yards once and over 25 touchdowns once.    

Agree with that. I hope the pukes give him 40mil a year.

[seantaylor=god]

10 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

This is my #1 preferred scenario.  

I hope Smith retires. If he doesn’t, I would try to restructure his contract. He’s not great but he does bring a lot to the table and I don’t want to take the dead cap hits of cutting him.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Tyrod Taylor would make Alex Smith look like a prime Brett Favre.  Matt Ryan, assuming the Falcons move on from him in the offseason, would be the ideal veteran get, IMO.  Then Stafford.  Hell, I wouldn't mind a Jacoby Brissett type placeholder (I guess Dalton would fall in this mix).  

 

I am not a Brissett guy.   He's not awful though. But I am not really into any of the FAs.  As for a rookie QB, love it, but if they draft at 19 or lower who do you got?

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-examining-the-indianapolis-colts-outlook-with-jacoby-brissett-under-center

 

Among the 39 signal-callers who've dropped back to pass at least 500 times since 2016, Brissett's big-time throw percentage of 3.0% ranks 35th...

 

Among those same quarterbacks, only Sam Bradford (6.69), Drew Brees (7.44), Alex Smith (7.69), Joe Flacco (7.85) and Eli Manning (7.90) have a lower average depth of target than Jacoby Brissett's mark of 7.92 — a full two-thirds of a yard shy of Andrew Luck's average over that span — and none of those 39 quarterbacks saw more of their yards come after the catch — as opposed to through the air — than Jacoby Brissett (54.3% of total passing yards).

 

It's the kind of playing style that keeps you in games, not wins you games, so the first area of improvement for Brissett will be to look closer to the all-important intermediate and deep ranges of the field, a throw range that accounted for just 27.1% of his attempts in 2017, a mark that ranked just 26th among 29 qualifying quarterbacks that year.

 

Brissett, much like Luck last season, will also have to significantly cut down his time to throw, as the North Carolina State product held onto the ball for far too long in his lone season as the Colts' starter. From Week 1 to Week 17, Brissett took an average of 2.97 seconds to throw in 2017, the fifth-highest rate among all quarterbacks. But unlike 2016 Luck, who ranked second in touchdown passes (19) but third in sacks taken (32) on dropbacks that took 2.6s or longer, Brissett was unable to make many good things happen as he stood in the pocket. In 2017, Brissett led the league in sacks taken from dropbacks of 2.6s or longer, with 47, and he managed to find the end zone just six times on those long-developing passes. Altogether, Brissett managed a 24th-ranked 52.5% completion percentage on those long-developing plays compared to Luck's seventh-ranked 59.7% completion percentage on the same in 2016.

 

The propensity for holding the ball cost the Colts big in key, high-leverage  areas that year: He and the Colts took 16 third-down sacks, tied for seventh among quarterbacks in 2017, while his 23.3% red-zone sack rate (sacks/red-zone dropbacks) is still the worst mark ever recorded by a quarterback who has managed at least 50 red-zone dropbacks over the course of a regular season.

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/05/indianapolis-colts-jacoby-brissett-struggles-blessing/

But when it was all said and done, the Colts failed to make the playoffs with a losing record. Brissett’s struggles in his final eight games of the season were massively exposed, causing reason to believe the front office might replace him this offseason.

And while those struggles from the quarterback position are the main culprit to the losing season, there is also some silver lining to knowing now what the Colts have in Brissett.

 

Having a losing season is never a good thing. Having a quarterback throw four touchdown passes in his final eight games of the season is never a good thing. That’s not what this is about.

But having those struggles from the quarterback position kept some of these issues from being masked.

Now, they are exposed like a nerve. And Ballard can thoroughly and truly evaluate where the biggest holes on the roster are ahead of the biggest offseason as general manager.

 

[tmandoug1]

What are the odds of the Jets moving on from Sam Darnold? Would he be worth a look?