Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[tmandoug1]

You guys are insane.....jesus get FA and the draft here ****ing ASAP or our new QB will be throwing to drafted high school kids. 

[88Comrade2000]

**** Watson, **** Wilson.  You trade for them and you have nothing left to build. We are several players away, not one player.

 

Also, if Houston sticks to their stance; they won’t be moving Watson in 21.

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

We used three first rounders and a high 2nd on a QB who absolutely sucked and it was so crippling that we were in the playoffs two years later with his sorry ass on the bench. Of course you would trade three firsts for Russell Wilson if that was an option. Not even a question. 

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

That doesn't hurt. Russell Wilson, this defense and a FA WR and we are good. This forum undervalues elite QB play. 

That... doesn’t... hurt?

 

How did Wilson do on Seattle this year?

[skinny21]

6 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

We used three first rounders and a high 2nd on a QB who absolutely sucked and it was so crippling that we were in the playoffs two years later with his sorry ass on the bench. Of course you would trade three firsts for Russell Wilson if that was an option. Not even a question. 

I think this is a good point.  Personally, I can live with three 1sts (especially mid to late in the round), but adding in the subsequent hit to cap space gives me pause.  

[Malapropismic Depository]

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Besides those QB's, surprised they didn't mention we also have that UDFA QB we signed last year as a rookie - Steven Montana.

So you know he's gotta be a good QB with a last name like Montana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

😛

 

And this is good news for us.

Would probably shake up the draft in a way that would help us

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Malapropismic Depository

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

He don’t want that Washington trade though.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[86 Snyder]

2 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

As much as I hate saying it and as bad as it would hurt...send 3 first rounders a 4th and j Allen for Russell Wilson. 

 

The fact you'd advocate this while at the same time laughing at the idea of trading for Watson is proof you need to keep sitting to pee for the rest of your life.

[Est.1974]

So is Tua considered damaged goods then, or would you take the chance compared to some of the other options on the market?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

So is Tua considered damaged goods then, or would you take the chance compared to some of the other options on the market?

I’m not too up to date on anything Tua but if the Dolphins would give up on him after only a season, that’s a huge red flag.

[bakedtater1]

3 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

The fact you'd advocate this while at the same time laughing at the idea of trading for Watson is proof you need to keep sitting to pee for the rest of your life.

How do you know I sit to pee?..I never laughed at trading for watson..didnt want to give up a d linemen but didnt laugh at it.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I’m not too up to date on anything Tua but if the Dolphins would give up on him after only a season, that’s a huge red flag.

Agree that’s not a good look/reflection.

 

Contract is very appealing though, pick up his rookie deal so as a minimum 3 years, just 10mil fully guaranteed left. Unless there is an underlying attitude/ work ethic issue, which I have no idea about. 
 

Probably worse moves on balance, trade cost dependant.

[daveakl]

8 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm starting to think that maybe our best bet would be to invest heavily in FA and the draft, roll with Heinicke and see where we get. Then maybe swing for the fences with Aaron Rodgers next year. I honestly think that if we draft (1)LT (2)WR-Elijah Moore? (3)RB and sign Allen Robinson, that if Heinicke could stay healthy, we could be really really good. 

This. 1000 x do this!

 

Get a WR, TE, G, T, LB x2, CB, S this year. 4 with the picks in rounds 1-3, 4 in FA.

 

Trade down a time or two and get some extra picks for next years draft. THEN go get the QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I'm also in the mode of being aggressive, probably more so than others on the board. I'd give up Chase Young and probably two 1sts. I think Watson is that good and a top 5 QB is that transformative.

 

 

Chase Young is off limits to me.  He's not just a great player but also great leader.  But I'd trade any of the others and give up multiple 1's.  But the national media is going well beyond a haul like that.  Maybe they are wrong?  But it seems like Carolina is willing to go crazy.  Peter King's point yesterday on the radio is he expects one team or two to go nuts in the bidding.   Will see.  Will see if he even hits the trade market.

 

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

On the flip side, I see our perceived lack of a QB really impairing us in FA. The top WR and TE just aren't going to want to come here. On the other hand, I would think LB and DB's would be dying to come here. Maybe it will balance out a little. 
 

 

It could be.  Money talks.  But sometimes the money is close and in those situations you'd figure the player will favor the team with a QB.   Hunter Henry already said its big for him as to QB.

 

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm starting to think that maybe our best bet would be to invest heavily in FA and the draft, roll with Heinicke and see where we get. Then maybe swing for the fences with Aaron Rodgers next year. I honestly think that if we draft (1)LT (2)WR-Elijah Moore? (3)RB and sign Allen Robinson, that if Heinicke could stay healthy, we could be really really good. 

 

I am OK with that as long as we don't assume that we land a QB in 2022 either.  I'd always put house money against landing the QB.   Looks like potentially a crappy draft for Qb in 2022 (yes that could change) and FA crop, too.  So we might have to hope that a Stafford like situation reappears.  And while that might happen, how do we know it does and if it does happen we win the bidding?  But certainly its possible. 

 

But I wouldn't force it this year.  If it happens it happens.  If not, 2022, but there is a chance 2022 doesn't work either. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[samy316]

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I'm also in the mode of being aggressive, probably more so than others on the board. I'd give up Chase Young and probably two 1sts. I think Watson is that good and a top 5 QB is that transformative.

 

But, 6-7 players plus picks? Carolina is going to give up their best young players, CMC and Burns, plus picks? And Watson would then want to be there? Why? They are going to lose Curtis Samuel in free agency probably. What is left? Watson and Moore and Jeremy Chinn? How are they going to replace their LT, Okung, when they need a new one? They won't have the picks. 

 

On the flip side, I see our perceived lack of a QB really impairing us in FA. The top WR and TE just aren't going to want to come here. On the other hand, I would think LB and DB's would be dying to come here. Maybe it will balance out a little. 

I'm starting to think that maybe our best bet would be to invest heavily in FA and the draft, roll with Heinicke and see where we get. Then maybe swing for the fences with Aaron Rodgers next year. I honestly think that if we draft (1)LT (2)WR-Elijah Moore? (3)RB and sign Allen Robinson, that if Heinicke could stay healthy, we could be really really good. 

Allen Robinson isn’t coming here unless we significantly upgrade our QB situation.  None of the top FA WR’s will come here unless that happens.  Why would Robinson or Samuel come here, when there are plenty of other teams to choose from with better QB’s?  If we don’t do something soon at QB, we’ll have to offer way more to these receivers, just to get them interested in coming here.  My guess is that if we roll with Heinecke/Allen with no improvement, we’ll end up overpaying for a mediocre second option like JuJu Smith-Schuster or TY Hilton.

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Allen Robinson isn’t coming here unless we significantly upgrade our QB situation.  None of the top FA WR’s will come here unless that happens.  Why would Robinson or Samuel come here, when there are plenty of other teams to choose from with better QB’s?  If we don’t do something soon at QB, we’ll have to offer way more to these receivers, just to get them interested in coming here.  My guess is that if we roll with Heinecke/Allen with no improvement, we’ll end up overpaying for a mediocre second option like JuJu Smith-Schuster or TY Hilton.

 

I think you guys are looking at this with tunnel vision and jsut looking at negatives. How about: "Allen, we see you as a key component to help us attract a top level QB or to help us develop one. We want to build this passing offence and you are the missing piece. It may take us until next year but we will give you a 4 yr contract that gives you an out after 2 or 3."

 

Players will go where they are wanted unless the team is just total ****. We are not that anymore. Who would not want to come where the D is going to give you a chance to win every game. And we have several key parts to a good offence - yes we are missing QB. But Heinecke might work and there are still other options out there. Just becasue we do not know their plan does not mean they do not have one. 

[samy316]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I think you guys are looking at this with tunnel vision and jsut looking at negatives. How about: "Allen, we see you as a key component to help us attract a top level QB or to help us develop one. We want to build this passing offence and you are the missing piece. It may take us until next year but we will give you a 4 yr contract that gives you an out after 2 or 3."

 

Players will go where they are wanted unless the team is just total ****. We are not that anymore. Who would not want to come where the D is going to give you a chance to win every game. And we have several key parts to a good offence - yes we are missing QB. But Heinecke might work and there are still other options out there. Just becasue we do not know their plan does not mean they do not have one. 

Unfortunately, our QB situation IS a net negative.  Currently we have one QB who, let’s be honest isn’t very good and injury prone (Kyle Allen), and we have another QB that was literally on the streets before week 16, out of the NFL (Heinecke).  That’s not much of a sell to potential FA WR’s.  These guys want to get paid, and put up numbers.  Why would they come here knowing that both potential starting  QB’s are injury prone, and in the case of Heinecke has only played 5 good quarters of football with no film?  Allen Robinson has played with Mitch Trubisky for two years.  Why would he want to go to a WORSE QB situation than the one he’s coming from?  He might as well stay with Chicago if that’s the case.

 

I do think we’ll be an attractive sell to FA defensive players though.  Our defense is good enough to get the top FA players intrigued.  But FA offensive players will probably have us low on their list unless we have a truly competent plan at fixing the QB position.

Edited February 23, 2021 by samy316

[86 Snyder]

5 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

How do you know I sit to pee?..I never laughed at trading for watson..didnt want to give up a d linemen but didnt laugh at it.

 

It's in your bio and was aimed as a joke.

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Unfortunately, our QB situation IS a net negative.  Currently we have one QB who, let’s be honest isn’t very good and injury prone (Kyle Allen), and we have another QB that was literally on the streets before week 16, out of the NFL (Heinecke).  That’s not much of a sell to potential FA WR’s.  These guys want to get paid, and put up numbers.  Why would they come here knowing that both potential starting  QB’s are injury prone, and in the case of Heinecke has only played 5 good quarters of football with no film?  Allen Robinson has played with Mitch Trubisky for two years.  Why would he want to go to a WORSE QB situation than the one he’s coming from?  He might as well stay with Chicago if that’s the case.

 

I do think we’ll be an attractive sell to FA defensive players though.  Our defense is good enough to get the top FA players intrigued.  But FA offensive players will probably have us low on their list unless we have a truly competent plan at fixing the QB position.

 

I never said QB was not a negative. What I said was is there are many positives to sell. And he would want to come here because the rest of the supporting cast is better and there is a plan at QB. Just because it's not clear to you or me does not mean they don't have one. How about we use a strong set WRs and other pieces to the passing game to get that QB to come here. 

 

It's a whole chicken and egg and I think there is way too much focus on the one negative - while very important - while there are many positives. 

 

It's standard fare for fans to say every year we are low on peoples FA list. And many of those years it would not be wrong. But this is truly and finally a different team with different leadership. Do not discount that. I certainly am not. We are building something here. That will mean something to right people. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim among others have said he has talked to agents and everything being equal they will often direct their clients to the teams with better QBs.  The reason isn't really even about winning but more about the next contract they shoot for and their thought is its easier for the WR clients to put up bigger numbers with the better QB and that can often lead to more $$$$$ down the road.

 

The good news is it was also said everything being equal is the operative point.  Cooper for example opted to stay in Dallas but the money wasn't that different.  So if you outbid the other team, money talks louder. 

 

 

 

[Sonny9TD]

Let's trade up and get Trey Lance. Just do it. Difference maker and salary cap friendly. Another WR this year too in draft and build from there. Just do this

[clskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, Sonny9TD said:

Let's trade up and get Trey Lance. Just do it. Difference maker and salary cap friendly. Another WR this year too in draft and build from there. Just do this

We have no clue if Lance is a difference maker or not. The guy has barely played. Trading up for a project QB would be a monumental mistake IMO. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I never said QB was not a negative. What I said was is there are many positives to sell. And he would want to come here because the rest of the supporting cast is better and there is a plan at QB. Just because it's not clear to you or me does not mean they don't have one. How about we use a strong set WRs and other pieces to the passing game to get that QB to come here. 

 

It's a whole chicken and egg and I think there is way too much focus on the one negative - while very important - while there are many positives. 

 

It's standard fare for fans to say every year we are low on peoples FA list. And many of those years it would not be wrong. But this is truly and finally a different team with different leadership. Do not discount that. I certainly am not. We are building something here. That will mean something to right people. 

 

I think there can be many positives to sell to pretty much anyone except a pass catcher. If we tell a big time FA WR that we're "working on" getting a good QB or we "have a plan" that means, at best, he could potentially have a good QB throwing the ball to him in 2022 (we're not going to convince him that Heinicke is actually some hidden gem stud QB). Best case. More likely case is he'll have to wait until beyond that, and even then it's a complete roll of the dice. Why would he come to that situation if he can get around the same money and play with an established QB elsewhere?

Edited February 23, 2021 by mistertim

[skinny21]

I think it’s pretty obvious that there are a lot of factors that draw receivers - qb pedigree/production, money, team potential, offensive style, running mates, locale, and so on.  Also probably fair to say qb, money, and likelihood of contending are usually the top 3 (I believe locale and familiarity sometimes bump into that top 3 for certain individuals).  For our situation, the qb position is obviously a bit of a mess.  Heck, even our one established qb is notorious for targeting non-receivers.  On the bright side, I think we check a lot of the other boxes, at least to some degree.

 

Anyway, my point to this was that I thought I’d take a look at targets out of curiosity.  Our receivers (outside of McLaurin, and not including backs/TEs) accounted for 161 targets.  Interestingly enough, our 3 backs also accounted for 161 targets.  If we assume Smith (and his check downs) isn’t starting for us, seems to me there will be a lot of available targets for a FA addition.  Add in McLaurin drawing double coverage, Turner’s relatively pass happy nature, and an oline that was pretty solid in pass pro - a FA could put up pretty serious numbers.  I’m not going to say ‘regardless of the qb’, but Haskins, Allen, Heinicke and Captain Checkdown* were the qbs, so...

 

Still don’t see us as a top destination for a FA receiver like Robinson, but there are a number of positives to coming to this team, IMO.  I agree of course that our lack of a proven qb is a big time drag on our receiver hunt.

 

 

*I’m not trying to disparage Smith here - I’ve got serious respect for the guy - just reiterating a point.

 

 

Back on topic, outside of a ‘good’ deal on Watson/Wilson (ie far less than is being discussed for Watson in particular), I think Fitzpatrick is probably our best bet.  It’s in effect punting the qb situation, but with him and a few other pieces, I think we’ve got a pretty solid shot to be a playoff team again, with a decent chance of advancing this go around.  With some luck/smarts, we could even be contenders.  This is mostly predicated on the fact that our biggest weaknesses (qb, LB and WR) are massive, and if we can address those spots in a meaningful way, we could see a big step up.

 

Last note (and to get back on track), it’s looking like we’re stuck in qb purgatory.  On the bright side, if guys like Fields, Lance and Jones go early enough, this draft will take a bunch of teams out of the qb market next year, so maybe our position is a bit better starting next year.  Or several guys retire, the 2022 draft has little to offer, Dak signs a LTD with Dallas, Watson/Wilson aren’t available and we’re even worse off, lol.

Edited February 23, 2021 by skinny21

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think there can be many positives to sell to pretty much anyone except a pass catcher. If we tell a big time FA WR that we're "working on" getting a good QB or we "have a plan" that means, at best, he could potentially have a good QB throwing the ball to him in 2022 (we're not going to convince him that Heinicke is actually some hidden gem stud QB). Best case. More likely case is he'll have to wait until beyond that, and even then it's a complete roll of the dice. Why would he come to that situation if he can get around the same money and play with an established QB elsewhere?

 

 

I disagree with the assessment. It's not all doom and gloom for a FA WR until we get a QB. I agree it's not ideal but there are more reasons to come to a football than demanding they have a HOF QB. And again we do not know what their plan is. Doesn't mean there is not one and that a top WR would not look at it and being enthusiastic. And let's not forget, in the end money is what really talks. 

 

So best to agree to disagree. I am not changing my mind and it's clear you are not and that's OK.