2020 Training Camp Discussion Thread

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

One narrative gets me jazzed, the other makes me pause.  The kicker for me was listening to Les Carpenter yesterday saying he doesn't think they will score much and suggested they will likely put up barely more than last year.

 

 

Ouch.  That's a brutal pill to swallow.  Cause the team put up almost no points last year.

 

Means he thinks Haskins development to end the season was a mirage, the work he's done this off-season hasn't helped.  Steve Sims hasn't improved much.  Gibson/McKissic don't really add a new element.  Our TE's have different names but are still Sprinkle levels of inconsistent.  Scott Turner continues the run-run-pass on 3rd and long strategy.

 

For the record, the last time this team put up this few points was Jim Zorn.  So just a bit more than that is still damn awful.

 

Les Carpenter has us going for Trevor Lawrence in 2021 then?

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

For the record, we had the least amount of points scored in the NFL last season.  The NFL average put up 6.2 more points scored per game than we had.

 

Sounds like Les Carpenter reeaalllyy doesn't like our offense.

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

If it works it works.  Throwing on the run is so different.  Aaron Rodgers throws like that sometimes.  And check out the best young QB in the game right now:

 

 

Like @KDawgnoted, Haskins hasn't proven anything like Mahomes has. When he's not running for his life, Mahomes actually has pretty good and consistent mechanics. That's my main issue with Haskins...he didn't have an actual solid base of consistent and good mechanics to work from when doing those "off schedule" throws. Guys like Rodgers and Mahomes do. 

 

Also I think the Mahomes throw you linked and the Haskins throw from the tweet are very different.

 

Haskins has WAY more wasted motion. Look at his legs. Mahomes throws from an odd platform and does a "baseball" type throw (as others noted), but his lower body and legs stayed relatively efficient, even if he did have to jump up a bit.

 

Haskins literally jumps up and then lifts both legs one after the other into the air. (I was only half kidding when I said it looked like he was doing the "Gangnam Style" dance). It's ludicrous and inefficient and IMO could point to him still not having that true consistent and solid base.

 

But who knows, I could also be wrong. I've liked most of what little I've seen of his footwork improvement so far in clips. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

I agree. And the secondary looks better than expected. However, a ball control and defense formula works better with a solid OL and TE's. The OL component worries me. I am hopeful that Logan Thomas continues to look as good as he has in camp. If he does, we have a chance to be at least average or slightly below, at that position. 

 

Yeah the secondary does seem better than expected.  I'm not sold on them yet, but I feel like there are some playmakers and decent pieces back there.  Got some Virginia Tech dudes.  Those guys are aggressive and they play the ball.  Darby could really make or break the secondary too, depends on injury luck with him.  He can kind of replace Quinton Dunbar's role.

 

The OL worries me too.  The right side is dependable and Roullier is a solid starter, whether he plays at LG or C at least.  I think we're all holding our breath about Geron Christian and hoping for the best.  Roullier is our second best interior OL and it kind of feels like our best option is to put Roullier next to Christian and start one of the back up Cs, but that brings its own issues.  I'd feel way better if Wes Martin had run away with the LG job in camp.  As it stands now, the left side of our line is an area to exploit, and Moses isn't exactly someone you feel great about leaving on an island in pass protection.

 

I think our quarterbacks and running backs are going to have to do a lot of playmaking to compensate for the offensive line and that is a really tough thing to ask of them given where each of them are in their careers. To paraphrase a great movie, they've either seen too many winters or too few.  Dwayne has his work cut out for him, and I think Gibson and Love are likely to struggle with the looks they're going to get in pass pro.  We're going to be seeing a lot of blitzes and stunts to that blindside...

 

I'm sold on Dwayne and hopeful about the QBs behind him on the depth chart, but if Dwayne gets hurt or knocked out of the line up, it could easily unravel our season.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Ouch.  That's a brutal pill to swallow.  Cause the team put up almost no points last year.

 

Means he thinks Haskins development to end the season was a mirage, the work he's done this off-season hasn't helped.  Steve Sims hasn't improved much.  Gibson/McKissic don't really add a new element.  Our TE's have different names but are still Sprinkle levels of inconsistent.  Scott Turner continues the run-run-pass on 3rd and long strategy.

 

For the record, the last time this team put up this few points was Jim Zorn.  So just a bit more than that is still damn awful.

 

Les Carpenter has us going for Trevor Lawrence in 2021 then?

 

Les Carpenter isn't on an island, from what I recall everyone watching practice or close enough have said the offense has struggled to move the ball.  It wasn't put on Haskins.  It was put on the whole offense.  I gather from how you articulated your point you think they are off to think this because of all the elements that you think have likely improved.  But in their defense they were just commenting on whether the offense is moving the ball in practice and they said they have distinctly struggled to do so. 

 

Carpenter like the others who watched the practice are high on the defense.  Seems like their consensus is its a 6 win team more or less because of the defense.

 

But they are just guessing like all of us are.  Will see. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Haskins literally jumps up and then lifts both legs one after the other into the air. (I was only half kidding when I said it looked like he was doing the "Gangnam Style" dance). It's ludicrous and inefficient and IMO could point to him still not having that true consistent and solid base.

 

But who knows, I could also be wrong. I've liked most of what little I've seen of his footwork improvement so far in clips. 

 

I mean, no QB is going to have a solid base while throwing on the run.  It's how they can get everything pointed in the right direction.

 

I have no idea if there's a better way for Haskins to operate on the run that works for his body and his arm.

 

I doubt he's ever going to develop into the type of keep the play alive threat that guys like Wilson, Romo, Rodgers, Mahomes, Watson etc are/were.

 

But I do like that he's trying, and at least looks consistent when he's doing it.  We'll find out if this method of his sucks or not.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I dont think he “jumps” during that throw. He’s in a full sprint out and it looks like a big step trying to generate the torque to get the ball where it needs to go. I dont think it’s a huge issue, at least not on that throw. Jmo.

[JoggingGod]

7 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I doubt he's ever going to develop into the type of keep the play alive threat that guys like Wilson, Romo, Rodgers, Mahomes, Watson etc are/were.

Wilson Rodgers Watson no, but Romo and Mahomes aren’t actually that fast. They just mostly have excellent awareness and are able to make their feet lighter. I don’t think that’s really that out of reach for Haskins considering he slimmed down.

[Vanguard]

Defense is usually better than the offense to start every year for any team.  I also think there’s some amount of loafing for offensive players, because it’s only practice, and because there was no preseason.  I watched every game last year.  We have players that play better when the lights are on.  I don’t know who Les Carpenter is?  I wouldn’t be able to draw many large conclusions from anybody who hasn’t at least scrimmaged another team.

[HTTRDynasty]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Les Carpenter isn't on an island, from what I recall everyone watching practice or close enough have said the offense has struggled to move the ball.  It wasn't put on Haskins.  It was put on the whole offense.  I gather from how you articulated your point you think they are off to think this because of all the elements that you think have likely improved.  But in their defense they were just commenting on whether the offense is moving the ball in practice and they said they have distinctly struggled to do so. 

 

Carpenter like the others who watched the practice are high on the defense.  Seems like their consensus is its a 6 win team more or less because of the defense.

 

But they are just guessing like all of us are.  Will see. 

 

Them being high on the defense and the offense struggling to move the ball doesn't necessarily mean the offense will be bad.  The fact that we have a possible top 10 defense, the fact that defenses usually look better in camp than offenses in general, and the fact that the offense is learning a completely new scheme means it's not a surprise the offense has struggled to move the ball.  It's not like we haven't seen/heard updates of Haskins throwing touchdowns and making big conversions, so we know the offense has shown flashes at least.

 

I guess we'll see in 13 days.

[JoggingGod]

Seems like we’re able to put up a few TDs each day. Not sure how that shows we can’t move the ball.

[mistertim]

21 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I dont think he “jumps” during that throw. He’s in a full sprint out and it looks like a big step trying to generate the torque to get the ball where it needs to go. I dont think it’s a huge issue, at least not on that throw. Jmo.

 

It may be slightly less pronounced than last year but he definitely is doing the same thing where he lifts up one leg then the other while throwing. I even had a screencap from a play last season because it was so goofy looking. 

 

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

12 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

There's basically 5 games of the Panthers last season that Turner got to run the team and call plays. We have a suspect offense and if there is one advantage we have it's that nobody knows what's coming. Makes perfect sense.

 

I'm cool with that, just dont advertise it as a scrimmage that the fans will be able to watch.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

I'm cool with that, just dont advertise it as a scrimmage that the fans will be able to watch.

Don't yell at me dude, I was bummed too, but that broadcast booth definitely needed some practice.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

@mistertim right I’ve seen what you are saying. Wasn’t that the throw for like 60+ yards to Terry? That’s was again a torque move, imo. I’ve seen him do it on others where it looks like it can be a problem, tho, so I’m not dismissing your point. On the one in The clip vs. chase and that bomb to Terry it worked for what he was trying to do given the situation. So I’m totally fine with those.  I’d leave him a little room to do it how he wants in certain situations. There is one I remember last year where it was bad, it wasn’t a long or difficult throw and he hopped up to throw it and it sailed on him, I was like wth you doing bro?! Lol. Easy for me from my couch. I don’t think it’s too huge an issue. Hoping to see better mechanics from him overall this year. I think we will.

[Malapropismic Depository]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

but that broadcast booth definitely needed some practice.

 

They showed Julie reading from a card, at each break, to say "This is the Washington Football Team"

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Don't yell at me dude, I was bummed too, but that broadcast booth definitely needed some practice.

 

 Bruh, who's yelling? Did I type in all caps with a bunch of exclamation points?? I agreed with you. My beef was with whoever sold this as a scrimmage that the fans would be able to watch. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

They showed Julie reading from a card, at each break, to say "This is the Washington Football Team"

DHall looked like he was about to drop his face in his hand the entire time. 

2 minutes ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

 Bruh, who's yelling? Did I type in all caps with a bunch of exclamation points?? I agreed with you. My beef was with whoever sold this a scrimmage that the fans would be able to watch. 

It was @Cooleyfan93

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

@mistertim right I’ve seen what you are saying. Wasn’t that the throw for like 60+ yards to Terry? That’s was again a torque move, imo. I’ve seen him do it on others where it looks like it can be a problem, tho, so I’m not dismissing your point. On the one in The clip vs. chase and that bomb to Terry it worked for what he was trying to do given the situation. So I’m totally fine with those.  I’d leave him a little room to do it how he wants in certain situations. There is one I remember last year where it was bad, it wasn’t a long or difficult throw and he hopped up to throw it and it sailed on him, I was like wth you doing bro?! Lol. Easy for me from my couch. I don’t think it’s too huge an issue. Hoping to see better mechanics from him overall this year. I think we will.

 

Yeah I don't want to make it out as some enormous issue. Because, as you noted, that pass was a completed bomb to Terry and the pass in the TC clip from yesterday was a completed pinpoint pass. If his general footwork and consistency has improved this season then I'm fine with it.

 

I'm mostly just giving him a hard time because, damn is that goofy looking. 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I have finally found the iconic image that I will use to replace my Riggo Super Bowl run poster.  

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I dont think he “jumps” during that throw. He’s in a full sprint out and it looks like a big step trying to generate the torque to get the ball where it needs to go. I dont think it’s a huge issue, at least not on that throw. Jmo.

 

I say as long as it works it's fine with me but he definitely jumps. 

 

Here's a pic from yesterday's "scrimmage" with Chase99 closing in just before an airborne Simba throws a perfect laser shot for a first down.

 

 

Washington quarterback Dwayne Haskins throws as he is pressured by defensive end Chase Young during practice Monday at FedEx Field. (Toni L. Sandys/The Washington Post)

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Yeah I feel like mechanics get thrown out the window when you're running for your life, at the point you just get the ball out in whatever way works best for you. 

So, the absolute best, hands down, without a doubt, QB education series ever made was YEARS ago by Bill Walsh on the QB mechanics in the west coast offense.  He had this guy who was helping him demonstrate the mechanics named Joe Montana. 

 

It's called "Quarterbacking by Bill Walsh."  Sadly, it's been cut up a million ways and now most of it is embedded in other NFL Films stuff. I'm going to link it at the bottom of this section.  

 

Regardless, 2 things to point out:

 

1. He goes through exactly the mechanics of where your shoulder, feet and arm should be if you're throwing on the move.  And there IS a hop involved if your're moving  left.  (Look at 3:20 in the clip below).  They even put a clip of real-game Montana doing it.  It is so textbook. 

 

2. He also goes through the technique of how to escape, and says, "this is to be practiced and drilled until the movement of the QB is natural" (I paraphrased.) 

 

So, I actually disagree with you.  I think technique is absolutely critical (as did Walsh, and since I know nothing and he knew everything, I'm just going to believe him) when the QB is on the move.  There are "right ways" and "wrong ways" to get your body in position to deliver the football accurately.

 

Now, I'll allow for the fact there are times when you just have to do whatever is available to you.  If you've got to lower your arm angle, or you physically can't get your shoulder around because somebody is hanging off of you fine.

 

But if you're evading, and running and then you have to throw, there IS actually technique to that, which Walsh used to teach.  And that's why guys like Montana and Young were SO good at it.

 

Also, for knowing, Reid and McCarthy (through others) are both off the Walsh tree. (As an interesting aside, Ron Rivera is off of the Walsh tree through Reid, even though he's not an offensive coach)  So it's no doubt Mahomes and Rodgers, who both have unbelievable physical skills, both throw somewhat the same way on the run, because I bet dollars to doughnuts they are running some of the same drills Montana did in 1981.  

 

Here's the link to part of the video.  I saw the full thing years ago, I can't find it anymore.

 

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Listening to the takes of those who watched practices, its tough for to make out this offense.  They seem to have tow running themes.

...

A couple thoughts:

1. The beat reporters have to say something, but they are guessing.  And they don't see the whole picture.  

2. I think it's going to be very interesting to see what the offense looks like with a game plan.  Right now, it's all base/vanilla stuff.  Sure, there's motion and formations and stuff.  But they haven't actually PLANNED for anybody yet.

3. Play calling is going to be absolutely critical.  I actually like the term play sequencing.  One thing Norv was really good at, which I don't think the last crew was, was sequencing plays to keep a defense off-balance, but also use one thing to set up another. I have no idea if Scott picked that up from his dad or not.  But especially this year when they're going to have to manufacture offense, it's critically important.  And we haven't seen ANY of that (relates to the plan also) yet.   

 

I agree, it's very intriguing.  

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Defense is usually better than the offense to start every year for any team.  I also think there’s some amount of loafing for offensive players, because it’s only practice, and because there was no preseason.  I watched every game last year.  We have players that play better when the lights are on.  I don’t know who Les Carpenter is?  I wouldn’t be able to draw many large conclusions from anybody who hasn’t at least scrimmaged another team.

Our defense also has more talent than the offense.  That's just the way it is.  So, I'd hope the defense is better than the offense.  

 

My hope is the defense has more talent than most defenses.  So when the offense is playing against other units, it's a little more of a fair fight.  

 

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

that broadcast booth definitely needed some practice.

I didn't hear it.  I like Bram and Julie.  I am eh on Deangelo.  I did hear Bram on the radio that he thought for a first time it was ok, but it was just a talk show since there weren't really plays to call. 

 

It's going to take some time for them to figure this out.  It's new for everybody. But I think they'll get there.

 

Honestly, it won't be hard to move on from Larry Michael.  Moving on from Cooley will be somewhat more difficult.  I am not a Doc fan. So, for me, the only one of the three folks in the booth I will miss is Cooley.  I'm interested to see how they do.  But I'm going to give them some time to figure it out.  

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Full video:

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

Chase's burst is otherworldly! 

 

A whole mess of QBs are going to be forced to choose between making a business decision or getting wrecked this year.

[Burgold]

34 minutes ago, TrancesWithWolves said:

 

I say as long as it works it's fine with me but he definitely jumps. 

 

Here's a pic from yesterday's "scrimmage" with Chase99 closing in just before an airborne Simba throws a perfect laser shot for a first down.

 

 

Washington quarterback Dwayne Haskins throws as he is pressured by defensive end Chase Young during practice Monday at FedEx Field. (Toni L. Sandys/The Washington Post)

That's not jumping, it's just controlled flight. Now, if he could really get the levitation thing going and get say about sixty feet up in the air he could just walk for every a touchdown on every offensive play.