The "Re-Opening" the Economy Thread

[tshile]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

All good questions.  Setting aside the "taking away of rights" and if that should be allowed, who should that power rest with?  Should Trump be able to overrule a mayor and forcing them to open?  What about forcing them to close?  How about letting them stay shutdown but witholding funds from them?  Etc............

I think we’re back at case by case

right now I would say trump is an idiot who’s priorities are other than “what’s best for the nation as a whole”

 

but it’s really not hard to imagine, or just recall, a situation where a president does have that priority but it’s a mayor/governor who’s got other priorities 

 

I’m not trying to be a pain in the ass about it I just can’t come up with a line to draw on the issue that doesn’t have obvious pitfalls. So I keep falling back on case by case analysis...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

And that's what I didn't say clearly: we are all vulnerable.

 

But that's true of anything, hence the need to define most vulnerable. 

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

@Renegade7

Isn't his DoJ planning on going after states that extend their shutdown?  I'd throw that under my umbrella of concern.

 

He is, the hypocrisy in the states rights conversation will be front and center if it makes it to Supreme Court, which it will if he does go all in in this. I hope they do try, I saw him use DPA on meat plants, he gonna use that on schools and Starbucks, too?

 

Quote

Not for the judges who would be answering these questions.

 

@tshile

 

 

They are elected in Wisconsin, as are the folks in Executive and Legislative branch that pick them at Federal Level.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Renegade7

[gbear]

6 hours ago, twa said:

 

one thing you could do is seek screened volunteers willing to isolate themselves  from society to care for the at risk, then the only outside contact is deliveries....which can be done safely

 

not much of a life for either though

I don't find it a particularly bad life. It has its rewards.  Though I have to admit sometimes it is a bit stressful.😉

Edited April 28, 2020 by gbear

[China]

We Asked All 50 States About Their Contact Tracing Capacity. Here's What We Learned

 

States are eager to open up and get people back to work, but how do they do that without risking new coronavirus flare-ups? Public health leaders widely agree that communities need to ramp up capacity to test, trace and isolate. The idea behind this public health mantra is simple: Keep the virus in check by having teams of public health workers — epidemiologists, nurses, trained citizens — identify new positive cases, track down their contacts and help both the sick person and those who were exposed isolate themselves.

 

This is the strategy that has been proven to work in other countries, including China, South Korea and Germany. For it to work in the U.S., states and local communities will need ample testing and they'll need to expand their public health workforce. By a lot.

 

An influential group of former government officials released a letter Monday calling for a contact tracing workforce of 180,000. Other estimates of how many contact tracers are needed range from 100,000 to 300,000.

 

NPR surveyed all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia to ask them how many contact tracers they currently have — and how many they were planning to add, if any. We got data for 41 states and the District of Columbia and found they have in total approximately 7,602 workers who do contact tracing on staff now, with plans to surge to a total of 36,587.

 

Click on the link for more

[No Excuses]

The economy can be reopened but it just won’t make much of a difference if people are still sheltering in place.

 

 

Just like there are essential workers, most people will treat outside activities on an “essential” basis too. This is a long-term event that isn’t improving until the pandemic is brought under control, which is likely to happen only when a vaccine is available. 
 

Way too much emphasis in general by gov officials on empty platitudes and moral victories, very little foresight on how you help industries and workers who may not have work even if you “reopen”.

[LD0506]

Quote

As states begin to reopen their economies after weeks of stay-at-home orders, some are warning employees that they will lose unemployment benefits if they refuse to return to their jobs, according to The Hill — even if they fear contracting the coronavirus.

In Iowa, Governor Kim Reynolds (R) said failing to return to work would be considered a “voluntary quit,” which would terminate an employee’s benefits.

 

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintellectualist/news/states-warn-that-workers-will-lose-unemployment-if-they-refuse-to-return-to-jobs-vbq1clsQ6USCAmgeoeym4w?fbclid=IwAR2GND3gfgb7gAcbcpGRMEgD9tNEEw4pk_fN_4Xn15R60I2k6OgEzHo-BsQ

[Larry]

And that's why the huge push to "reopen the economy", whether businesses want to open, whether they have customers or supplies, or frankly, whether it's safe. 

 

It's about cancelling unemployment. About not actually helping with the economic consequences of this disaster.  

[No Excuses]

22 minutes ago, Larry said:

And that's why the huge push to "reopen the economy", whether businesses want to open, whether they have customers or supplies, or frankly, whether it's safe. 

 

It's about cancelling unemployment. About not actually helping with the economic consequences of this disaster.  

 

It's just bad politics all around. It's very likely that businesses are given permission to reopen, and then people still keep losing their jobs when revenue isn't coming in and businesses have to close doors or layoff most employees. The fallback is that you use the PPP loans to keep businesses afloat, except the amount of money distributed through it isn't even remotely enough, nor will an additional $300 billion meet the challenge fast enough.

 

You would think that the business friendly party would actually have serious thinkers on business policy issues, but it's just the usual buffoonery and clown car of bad ideas and even worse implementation.

Edited April 29, 2020 by No Excuses

[Koala]

46 minutes ago, Larry said:

And that's why the huge push to "reopen the economy", whether businesses want to open, whether they have customers or supplies, or frankly, whether it's safe. 

 

It's about cancelling unemployment. About not actually helping with the economic consequences of this disaster.  

 

 

I think thats one reason.  I think the biggest reasons all have to do with the november elections.  Obviously all the incumbent republicans want the economic recovery to begin ASAP, more than they care about the actual recovery of peoples health from COVID19.

 

Besides that, I cant figure out too many reasons why the country hit hardest and latest by COVID19 wants to be the one of the first to reopen things.  One possibilty is that we are that dumb.  BUT Ive also developed a bit of a conspiracy theory here, tell me if Im crazy.  I think its possible that some republicans (i.e. Trump) are so worried about the november elections that they are purposefully pushing to reopen too early, in the hopes of causing a COVID 19 resurgence that will be perfectly timed to disrupt the elections.  

 

Why?  In order to ensure a low turnout -- they will simultaneously work to ensure that voting rules are unchanged  and therefore unable to cope with a locked down populace.

 

Also, the unusual circumstances would give Trump a reason to contest the election results, with the hope that he has enough of a case to got to the SC, which he already has in his pocket.  Or he could just outright delay the elections.

 

Think about ithow would you go about ensuring a COVID19 resurgence in the fall?

1. 1)  Open things a little too early, like May for example.
2. 2) Then let things "marinate" throughout the summer.  Pounce on any drop of infectivity that may occur due to higher temperatures as proof that worst is over, so full normal life should resume.
3. 3) As soon as the temperatures cool a bit (as they tend to do around October) -- BOOM the virus comes roaring back just in time to wreak havoc on election day.

 

Or we're just that dumb.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Koala

[Hersh]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

The economy can be reopened but it just won’t make much of a difference if people are still sheltering in place.

 

Just like there are essential workers, most people will treat outside activities on an “essential” basis too. This is a long-term event that isn’t improving until the pandemic is brought under control, which is likely to happen only when a vaccine is available. 
 

Way too much emphasis in general by gov officials on empty platitudes and moral victories, very little foresight on how you help industries and workers who may not have work even if you “reopen”.

 

Those poll numbers should scare the hell out of the GOP. They are playing politics by pushing to reopen and it's going to blow up in their face. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

And that's why the huge push to "reopen the economy", whether businesses want to open, whether they have customers or supplies, or frankly, whether it's safe. 

 

It's about cancelling unemployment. About not actually helping with the economic consequences of this disaster.  

 

What if their mayor ordered them to remain closed?  That is why one of the questions I was pushing was who has the authority to do what?  Best answer I got was “depends on the situation.”  Seems pretty damn important now.

[Simmsy]

34 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Those poll numbers should scare the hell out of the GOP. They are playing politics by pushing to reopen and it's going to blow up in their face. 

It does, but McConnell wants to get back to work so he can shove through some more judges before the floor drops out from under him.

[twa]

6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

What if their mayor ordered them to remain closed?  That is why one of the questions I was pushing was who has the authority to do what?  Best answer I got was “depends on the situation.”  Seems pretty damn important now.

 

governors overrule any in state

county leaders overrule city

city overrule localities/neighborhoods

 

[LadySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

 

 

I think thats one reason.  I think the biggest reasons all have to do with the november elections.  Obviously all the incumbent republicans want the economic recovery to begin ASAP, more than they care about the actual recovery of peoples health from COVID19.

 

Besides that, I cant figure out too many reasons why the country hit hardest and latest by COVID19 wants to be the one of the first to reopen things.  One possibilty is that we are that dumb.  BUT Ive also developed a bit of a conspiracy theory here, tell me if Im crazy.  I think its possible that some republicans (i.e. Trump) are so worried about the november elections that they are purposefully pushing to reopen too early, in the hopes of causing a COVID 19 resurgence that will be perfectly timed to disrupt the elections.  

 

Why?  In order to ensure a low turnout -- they will simultaneously work to ensure that voting rules are unchanged  and therefore unable to cope with a locked down populace.

 

Also, the unusual circumstances would give Trump a reason to contest the election results, with the hope that he has enough of a case to got to the SC, which he already has in his pocket.  Or he could just outright delay the elections.

 

Think about ithow would you go about ensuring a COVID19 resurgence in the fall?

1. 1)  Open things a little too early, like May for example.
2. 2) Then let things "marinate" throughout the summer.  Pounce on any drop of infectivity that may occur due to higher temperatures as proof that worst is over, so full normal life should resume.
3. 3) As soon as the temperatures cool a bit (as they tend to do around October) -- BOOM the virus comes roaring back just in time to wreak havoc on election day.

 

Or we're just that dumb.

 

All likely floating through fevered Republican minds.

 

Plus, here's a little known fact: Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Standard: 500 employees or less–generally. 50 employees or less. Dependent on individual tax law statutes. Feb 19, 2014

 

There are lots of businesses that are classified as small business whose owners are multimillionaires. These are the businesses that are gobbling up the small business loans and bailouts for Covid-19.  Other small businesses that don't have access to a team of lawyers are last in line while these others take advantage. Just more wealth transfer.

[Renegade7]

@Koala recent Wisconsin election should be a warning to GOP in your conspiracy idea, they got their ass whipped.

 

Nature doesn't play politics.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Renegade7

[China]

Guidelines call for 14-day drop in cases to reopen. No state has met them.

 

As a handful of states begin to ease stay-at-home restrictions, no state that has opted to reopen has come close to the federally recommended 14 consecutive days of declining cases.

 

Even as the U.S. hit the grim milestone of more than 1 million cases Tuesday — one-third of the world's total — Georgia, Minnesota and other states are pushing to reopen businesses, even though new infection rates are still rising.

 

Some states, such as Colorado and Kentucky, have reported fewer new cases in the past week. But no single state has had 14 days of decline.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[twa]

most prefer the hospitalization and death rate metrics due to both testing and indication issues of earlier spread

[China]

Three female re-open America protest ringleaders are arrested after clashing with healthcare workers at anti-lockdown protest in North Carolina

 

Three women ringleaders have been arrested after clashing with healthcare workers at a controversial anti-lockdown rally. 

 

Lisa Marks Todd (55), Wendy Kath Macasieb (53) and Ashley Elaina Smith (33) were charged by cops with violating an executive order and resisting a public officer.

 

They arrests were made as hundreds of protesters attended the 'Reopen North Carolina' rally on Tuesday despite the group's leader testing positive for the coronavirus.  

 

'Our protests will continue. Our civil disobedience will accelerate. Our faith in the police has diminished. We will open North Carolina.'  

 

Click on the link for the full article

[PleaseBlitz]

#Patriots

[Larry]

8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

#Patriots

 

Meaning, they aren't fully inflated?  

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, twa said:

 

governors overrule any in state

county leaders overrule city

city overrule localities/neighborhoods

 

Source?

[twa]

41 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Source?

 

civics class

 

I can give you the example of the county placing a fine for not wearing a mask and the Gov overruling it or the coming order to open beaches despite city bans.

 

bôth have complied or indicated they will comply

 

add

 if you or others are interested this explains it 

 

https://www.alec.org/app/uploads/2016/01/2016-ACCE-White-Paper-Dillon-House-Rule-Final.pdf

Edited April 29, 2020 by twa

[TheGreatBuzz]

41 minutes ago, twa said:

 

civics class

 

I can give you the example of the county placing a fine for not wearing a mask and the Gov overruling it or the coming order to open beaches despite city bans.

 

bôth have complied or indicated they will comply

 

add

 if you or others are interested this explains it 

 

https://www.alec.org/app/uploads/2016/01/2016-ACCE-White-Paper-Dillon-House-Rule-Final.pdf

Thanks.  From what I had been hearing, it sounded like it varied by state and in many locations, it wasn't settled law on who could order shutdown and who could overturn.

[twa]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Thanks.  From what I had been hearing, it sounded like it varied by state and in many locations, it wasn't settled law on who could order shutdown and who could overturn.

 

nothing is ever settled law, but most is generally accepted till it is changed.

 

the preemption doctrine is pretty settled, of course states having a bigger stick to whack the county and cities with probably helps