FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

People are asking questions about Haskins. Reporters aren’t asking much about the other guys. It’s part of the quarterback position.

Right.

 

Nobody is saying that everyone else on the team is playing lights out or deserves to retain their starting spot or whatever else.  That's just deflection to make it about everyone else, when we all know that QB is and forever will be the most talked about position with the most pressure to perform as they touch the ball every offensive snap.  

 

Folks can point out stats and make this about <insert other QBs on bad teams> and all that, but this isn't just about stats.  Dwayne misses pedestrian throws every single week, lacks awareness and doesn't have the greatest attitude to boot.  It's not just about the stat sheet.  Ron Rivera is not being unfair in his criticism or displaying any lack of patience.  He has an entire team to manage and it's more than fair to put Dwayne on the clock.

[MartinC]

9 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

Aside from good arm strength, What is Haskins actual talent at the QB position? What is he going to improve on that can make him an elite QB?  I’ve seen none of that in this thread. 

Accuracy number one - which stems from being much more consistent in his mechanics. We have talked about that a ton in this thread. Then it’s the same things that make or break every NFL QB, processing information and decision making.

 

And having the system and talent around him to make all the above worth a damn. 
 

Of some relevance ...

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

I miss Sean McVay

[KDawg]

@MartinC

 

I think he’s asking what traits Haskins possesses rather than the skills we need him to...

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

I have no problem admitting I don't know but none of us know what goals were set for Dwayne and if he's meeting them, these could be small goals that eventually lead into bigger ones but if he's not hitting those it may be a red flag to the coaches.

 

 

This has to be true.  It would make sense.  And they obviously would know and we wouldn't.  As an example, we are judging Rivera for judging Haskins on that 4th down play.  But Rivera has context on this that we don't.  Maybe they have simulated that same play in practice or specifically coached him to do such and such.  There is context in my job that only I and my co-workers know about, people from the outside would have no clue.  Makes sense for the same to be the case in football. 

 

20 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

You need a baseline level of talent and awareness to develop into a good solid NFL QB IMO, its possible we drafted a QB who does not meet that baseline level of talent and will need 2 seasons just to become average.

 

 

It's possible.  That's why i don't think every Qb drafted deserves an automatic pass with years of patience.  Up for the coaches to gauge

 

20 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Its all guessing but acting as if Ron, Turner, and Zampese have all the sudden lost their mind and are out to get this kid makes no sense, if they want to move on from Dwayne this fast that should tell you something.

 

Agree.  And they have much more data about Haskins than we do. 

 

20 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Its also possible this is just tough love from Ron, something he is doing to motivate Dwane based on what he was told by Meyer.

 

Could be true, too.  Tough love. 

[MartinC]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

@MartinC

 

I think he’s asking what traits Haskins possesses rather than the skills we need him to...

We’ve talked about that stuff a bunch in this thread as well. Leadership for example is something that’s done in different ways but is an essential part of being a successful QB - and it’s not been a strength of Haskins. But it’s something Meyer said he grew into at Ohio.
 

Intelligence to not only grasp a system’s verbiage but really understand conceptually how it fits together, and this is a new system to Haskins with an awful offseason situation to pick it up. I don’t think Haskins lacks intelligence or football IQ but he’s also not shown yet it’s a strength.

 

Pocket presence/awareness - I don’t think Haskins is awful in this regard but he’s not good either (see the 18 yard sack when we are on their 10 yard line). 
 

Haskins is a pocket QB with average at best mobility. If he’s going to become an ‘elite QB’ them he has to excel in the football IQ, pocket presence awareness areas. He can’t get out of jail with his legs like a Jackson, Wilson, Rogers or Mahomes.

 

And then of course it helps if you can consistently hit who you are throwing at.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

But this is the hand we've been dealt. I had hopes for Zampese and Turner (namely because of his dad) and still do. Maybe they can overcome Ron's behavior and continue to work to develop Haskins. 

 

Missed this part in your initial post.   So you are worried that Rivera is going to screw it up?   Rivera flat out said he was told by Urban Meyer that Haskins is motivated by openly challenging him.  So that's what he's perhaps doing.

 

Rivera seems to delegate on offense.  So i do think he'd be trusting Zampese in particular.  Rivera isn't stupid.  So if Zampese is whispering in Rivera's ear that Haskins is special just give him time, I'd think he'd heed his advice.

 

That tweet below has been posted before.  Banner is no clown, he used to be the Pres of the Eagles.  Keim is no clown.  He said recently he's not sure if Haskins wouldn't have fallen to the 2nd round if the WFT didn't take him at 15. That all could be wrong but I've read enough to be convinced that Haskins wasn't universally loved before the draft.  That doesn't mean he can't be the guy but my point is he's not considered by most as some through the roof talent. 

 

IMO we didn't draft some ballyhooed Andrew Luck level college prospect.  Some liked Haskins, some not as much.  Haskins may turn out to be the goods or may not.  I trust Rivera and company will figure it out one way or another.  In your shoes, I wouldn't worry about it.  it would play out the way it likely should play out for better or worse for Dwyane. 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My point is we didn't draft some ballyhooed Andrew Luck level college prospect.  Some liked Haskins, some not as much.  Haskins may turn out to be the goods or may not.  I trust Rivera and company will figure it out one way or another.  In your shoes, I wouldn't worry about it.  it would play out the way it likely should play out for better or worse for Dwyane. 

 

Why do you (and others) keep bringing this up? Several QBs and other players drafted in a low round have been good. Its not a projection of his talent at all. He was a highly scouted player because of what he did in his 1 year of starting and his abilities. He was marked lower because of his style of offense and the passes he threw and and his only having 1 year of production. 

 

But nobody knows how to draft QBs because otherwise we wouldn't have so many first round busts or Wilson would have been a first rounder, same with Cousins, same with Minshew. Its an inexact science and Haskins career projection is not determined by what half the league had him listed as. Heck Shanny had Wilson as a 4th. Don't we wish we "overdrafted" him in the second, or even the first now (and not made the RG3 trade)? 

 

This means nothing. 

[MartinC]

I don’t fully subscribe to this - but I would say the QB is only part of the problem.

 

 

[SoCalSkins]

5 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

When you remove peoples bias, it is not surprising to see 92% of people choose to want Haskins as their QB in that blind study.

When the choices are crap, diarrhea and vomit. Do you actually think those critical of Haskins play here would be any less critical of Jones or Darnold if they were our QB? I went to UCLA and I have disliked Darnold for a long time and i would treat him with far more skepticism than I have for Haskins. Daniel Jones is equally worthless and he didn’t  go to a top program like Haskins. He deserves less leeway.
 

You seem to think our disdain for poor QB play would be limited to Haskins. It’s not. I can almost guarantee you the next first round QB who is drafted by us will face similar scrutiny. He’s very likely a bust too. We haven’t drafted a franchise QB who panned out for us since Sammy Baugh. Chances are the next one won’t end that streak of futility either. The dude will have a brief honeymoon period then it’s time to perform. 
 

 

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

The dude will have a brief honeymoon period then it’s time to perform. 

Which is why the bust rate on QBs league wide is so high right now. You’ve either got to be just special (Mahomes) or land in a great situation (also Mahomes ...) to be successful.

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Which is why the bust rate on QBs league wide is so high right now. You’ve either got to be just special (Mahomes) or land in a great situation (also Mahomes ...) to be successful.

But conversely most of those who don’t flash early never end up igniting down the road either. There is absolutely more pressure to perform these days based on the success of Mahommes and others. Marino was an anomaly who had a great rookie campaign  in 1984. Everyone else in that era was expected to sit and learn. Maybe Rodgers doesn’t have the career today if he didn’t sit behind Favre initially. Unfortunately, those are now anomalies of a bygone era.
 

You have to perform and perform fast. If you do, you get 30 mil a year on the second contract. It’s the give and take of the evolution of the position. 

[Skinsinparadise]

53 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Why do you (and others) keep bringing this up? Several QBs and other players drafted in a low round have been good. Its not a projection of his talent at all. He was a highly scouted player because of what he did in his 1 year of starting and his abilities. He was marked lower because of his style of offense and the passes he threw and and his only having 1 year of production. 

 

But nobody knows how to draft QBs because otherwise we wouldn't have so many first round busts or Wilson would have been a first rounder, same with Cousins, same with Minshew. Its an inexact science and Haskins career projection is not determined by what half the league had him listed as. Heck Shanny had Wilson as a 4th. Don't we wish we "overdrafted" him in the second, or even the first now (and not made the RG3 trade)? 

 

This means nothing. 

 

Maybe later I'll try to dig it up but yes there is a stronger correlation for how high you are picked including the QB spot and your likelihood of success.  It's playing the odds.  The outliers are outliers not the rule.   Exceptions exist for everything.  I recall us debating this same point about other players.

 

I explained to you why I bring this up and that is some dudes are raw with insane talent.  Josh Allen and Mahomes would be good examples of that.  Their raw skils were ballyhooed before the draft.  They were seen as the types that demanded patience because if they worked out (which was far from a given) the payoff would be big. 

 

I recall Dan Orlovsky, Bucky Brooks, Louis Reddick really loved Haskins.  But by and large he had people that dug him, not so much, and some in between.   A draft geek (forgetting whom) wrote an article i recall during that draft season that Haskins was loved more by media talking heads than personnel people he spoke to and there was a difference between those two camps.   I agree with you that the sentiment about Haskins before the draft didn't matter as for the likelihood of his success.  My point is if it so happens that Rivera or Zampese aren't in love with Haskins it wouldn't come off as absurd.  It's not like we drafted John Elway level of talent or a raw QB who is a super athlete, etc.  Similar story IMO with Daniel Jones with the Giants.  Jones had his select fans like Haskins did among them Rex Ryan.  But by and large he wasn't touted as a borderline can't miss prospect.

 

And for me personally, I spent hours studying Haskins, and I myself wasn't blown away by him.  Now that should mean nothing to everyone else.  But it means something to me.  I got opinions on some prospects who I have studied.  And usually they are positive in the context of this team.  I put for example Antonio Gibson on my short list of players i wanted before the draft.  I argued on draft day for Terry Mclaurin and why we should take him among other prospects i liked in the third.  I talked up Ioannidis as a player I'd like right before we took him.  And then I got some bad ones, loved Guice, loved Doctson.  But heck its a fun hobby for me.  So yeah i didn't love Haskins before the draft.  Nope that doesn't mean i am rooting against him.  i'd love to see him kill it.  But its hard to just throw my opinion out the window and forget what i thought about him in college and training camp.

 

Having said that, I'd throw my opinion out the window in 2 seconds if Rivera said look we got Cam Netwon round 2 on our hands and the sky is the limit for the dude or name that superlative.  I trust wherever Rivera lands on this.  He knows miles more both about Haskins and football than i do to say the least.  It doesn't seem like you likewise trust Rivera the same way and are riding some on your opinion over his as to how this shoud go down unless i am misreading you? 

 

 

 

[heyholetsgogrant]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

We’ve talked about that stuff a bunch in this thread as well. Leadership for example is something that’s done in different ways but is an essential part of being a successful QB - and it’s not been a strength of Haskins. But it’s something Meyer said he grew into at Ohio.
 

Intelligence to not only grasp a system’s verbiage but really understand conceptually how it fits together, and this is a new system to Haskins with an awful offseason situation to pick it up. I don’t think Haskins lacks intelligence or football IQ but he’s also not shown yet it’s a strength.

 

Pocket presence/awareness - I don’t think Haskins is awful in this regard but he’s not good either (see the 18 yard sack when we are on their 10 yard line). 
 

Haskins is a pocket QB with average at best mobility. If he’s going to become an ‘elite QB’ them he has to excel in the football IQ, pocket presence awareness areas. He can’t get out of jail with his legs like a Jackson, Wilson, Rogers or Mahomes.

 

And then of course it helps if you can consistently hit who you are throwing at.

This kind of proves the point I was trying to make,with the amount of attributes you list he needs to get better at, he’s not very good at anything. If that’s the case, he shouldn’t be starting. It feels like we’re taking someone who’s good at virtually nothing and hoping he gets better at everything. All of the elite QB’s in the league had some some things they were good at coming into the league.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Why do you (and others) keep bringing this up? Several QBs and other players drafted in a low round have been good. Its not a projection of his talent at all. He was a highly scouted player because of what he did in his 1 year of starting and his abilities. He was marked lower because of his style of offense and the passes he threw and and his only having 1 year of production. 

 

But nobody knows how to draft QBs because otherwise we wouldn't have so many first round busts or Wilson would have been a first rounder, same with Cousins, same with Minshew. Its an inexact science and Haskins career projection is not determined by what half the league had him listed as. Heck Shanny had Wilson as a 4th. Don't we wish we "overdrafted" him in the second, or even the first now (and not made the RG3 trade)? 

 

This means nothing. 

 

This is interesting. 

[MartinC]

14 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

But conversely most of those who don’t flash early never end up igniting down the road either.

 

That wasn't always the case by any means back in the day. Lots of examples of QBs who struggled, sometimes badly early, and turned it around it around to be very successful. Of course there are lots more examples of guys who just sucked period.

 

14 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

There is absolutely more pressure to perform these days based on the success of Mahommes and others. Marino was an anomaly who had a great rookie campaign  in 1984. Everyone else in that era was expected to sit and learn. Maybe Rodgers doesn’t have the career today if he didn’t sit behind Favre initially. Unfortunately, those are now anomalies of a bygone era.

 

Yep. It's a different era with a different set of realities.  Not sure its necessarily better from a player development and quality of play perspective but it is what it is.

[MartinC]

29 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

 All of the elite QB’s in the league had some some things they were good at coming into the league.

 

Did they? I beg to differ.

 

I recall watching Arron Rogers play as a rookie in pre season. He was flat awful - could not get in and out of the huddle, get a snap off or hit anything he was throwing at. If he had been in a situation he was forced to play early I don't know he sees a second contract. I guess you could say he always had the physical skills  - arm talent and  mobility, but the other stuff? Not so much. Haskins has physical skills.

 

Of course now with only a 4 year window on a rookie QB before you have to make a decision I don't know that you can afford to sit a rookie for more than one year. After that he pretty much has to play so you can see what you have.

 

 

[DJHJR86]

 

Seems prophetic at this point.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm inclined to disagree with Orlovsky and agree with the other analysis.  Haskins may not have been the whole problem, but he was part of the greater problem.  Orlovsky paints a rosy picture of Haskins level of play.

[SoCalSkins]

45 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

That wasn't always the case by any means back in the day. Lots of examples of QBs who struggled, sometimes badly early, and turned it around it around to be very successful. Of course there are lots more examples of guys who just sucked period.

 

Agreed. I was speaking to the modern era. Once you put a guy out in the fire and if he doesn’t perform he’s pretty much ruined. The expectations, media scrutiny, social media onslaught bury most guys. In the old days they had much lower expectations. 
 

The most valuable competitive asset in the NFL now is a QB performing well on a rookie deal. The flexibility that affords a team from a salary cap standpoint is unmatched. Highest return on invest when you hit in the draft on one.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

 

I'm inclined to disagree with Orlovsky and agree with the other analysis.  Haskins may not have been the whole problem, but he was part of the greater problem.  Orlovsky paints a rosy picture of Haskins level of play.

 

I haven't rewatched the game yet so i don't have a super strong opinion on Haskins' performance on Sunday.  But its hard for me to take Orlovsky without a grain of salt, since he massively pushed Haskins before the draft.

 

I respect the anaylists who aren't so tied to their initial opinion.  As an example I like Mark Bullock's take on things, I don't always agree with him but I often do.  Bullock was a big Haskins guy before the draft yet i notice him questioning Haskins some this season.  I respect that he's not so tied to his opinion that he's forcing it moving forward.  I am not saying Orlovsky is but it is tough for me to forget that he was among the select talking heads that just loved Haskins before the draft so am wondering if he has a hard time overcoming that presdisposition. 

[method man]

8 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Agreed. I was speaking to the modern era. Once you put a guy out in the fire and if he doesn’t perform he’s pretty much ruined. The expectations, media scrutiny, social media onslaught bury most guys. In the old days they had much lower expectations. 
 

The most valuable competitive asset in the NFL now is a QB performing well on a rookie deal. The flexibility that affords a team from a salary cap standpoint is unmatched. Highest return on invest when you hit in the draft on one.

In my opinion, the bust rate of first round QBs in recent years is lower than it has ever been. OCs have brought more college concepts to the table, making the transition easier. 
 

You don’t have as many all out busts at the position anymore. Even Mariota and Trubisky have shown they can take teams to the playoffs as starters 

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Which is why the bust rate on QBs league wide is so high right now. You’ve either got to be just special (Mahomes) or land in a great situation (also Mahomes ...) to be successful.

To be fair to DH, and all of the offense, they are learning a brand new system together with no mini camp or preseason games. DH is still learning the league and now a new offense. I was read where Joe Gibbs would base the season in 4 game sets and try to win each 4 game block. If we do this we now move on to the next set after going 1-3 to start. Lets see if DH can make strides and get us a couple of wins in the next 4 game block? Personally I don't see him as the starter next year but lets see if he can prove us wrong. He looks like a QB who hasn't played 4 years of college ball and was thrown into the NFL to learn on the fly. If RR can be patient then I guess I have to be too.

[dyst]

Some of these tweets always come up with an obscure stat to support the argument that Haskins isn't that bad, meanwhile the tape and eye test always say otherwise. That Dan Orlovsky tweet is another example. There is a reason why Tampa is 3-1 right now and it has a lot to do with Tom Brady. Put Tom Brady on this team and we are very possibly 3-1 also, even at his age.