FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[GOATFrerotte]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It literally was.  I'll repeat this again I guess: the designed timing of the throw is for the ball to come out when the QB completes the drop.  Now that we've got the full view of the field and it's super slowed down, I can see what Terry and the other two vert options were doing.  Guarantee that Terry running that corner route was the first option as the "high read" and Wright was the second option as the "low read."  That kind of high-low structure to the design is typical in the china concept.  What is less typical and doesn't make sense is lining the other receiver up in between them and having him jam up the spacing on the corner route by making the decision of that shallow flat zone defender to carry the receivers up field so easy to make.

 

Terry made his break at the four yard line and that coincided with the end of the drop.  That's the window for the throw to Terry.  But it never opened because the flat defender never bit on Wright.

 

BTW, you all are talking about wanting to give the WR a chance to make a play on the ball and how the throw must go to the sticks, if Wright stems inside and pushes upfield before running a corner route instead of a china then he's got a far better chance of making something happen in that situation than forcing a throw into an eight man coverage would.

There is nothing in that video that proves your point that it was meant to be thrown when he completes his drop. It looks more obvious it was meant for him to wait for an opening in the zone to throw. The one deep crosser hasn’t even turned his head and Haskins had already thrown the ball. Are you saying Haskins is so incapable of extending and making plays that he has to throw the check down there. If it is, we need a new qb that’s a little more advanced than that.

[wit33]

Where are these leaks coming from? Unfortunate, was hopeful these type of stories would be gone, but probably unavoidable in a city with a QB issue?

[GOATFrerotte]

29 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Haskins’ agent putting out the statement on Twitter questioning Ron Rivera’s decision making and throwing his teammates under the bus probably sealed it. If Haskins did not feel the same, the tweet would have been deleted by now. It’s still up. It’s Haskins passive aggressive way of making a statement.
 

Same with his Instagram post he deleted the day after the Browns game. He doesn’t carry himself as a professional. Has no business being a starting QB and has no business being a team captain. He’s better off trying to be a social media influencer than an NFL QB at this point.

I had no reason to really dislike Haskins before that, I just don’t like his on field performance but the agent makes me start disliking him. Those situations rarely end well and usually end up being more problems than they’re worth. Not a good sign.

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

There is nothing in that video that proves your point that it was meant to be thrown when he completes his drop. It looks more obvious it was meant for him to wait for an opening in the zone to throw. The one deep crosser hasn’t even turned his head and Haskins had already thrown the ball. Are you saying Haskins is so incapable of extending and making plays that he has to throw the check down there. If it is, we need a new qb that’s a little more advanced than that.

 

All throws in the West Coast Offensive philosophy are designed to be completed at the end of the drop.  The release is actually supposed to come before the WR fully finishes their break.  When you hold onto the ball instead of throwing it after your drop, that means the play is now off schedule and you are playing outside of the design of the play.  In high-lows like that concept, the QB reads high to low, so basically he's reading one part of the field.  On this play, he's reading the flat defender and making his decision based off of what that guy decides to do.  The flat defender bailed and dropped super deep to carry that slot receiver down the field, which meant the intended window of the throw to Terry never materialized.  That's why Haskins moved off of him to the low read.

 

Let's say Haskins abandons the playcall after the window to Terry failed to develop and takes it off schedule.  It's a scramble drill and Haskins has three vertical options to beat an eight man zone, and none of them are jump ball guys.  That is not going to get it done.  If you think there was a chance for something to happen in that scenario, then I'd say you have unrealistic expectations about the quality of NFL secondaries, especially a good one like theirs.  Maybe if we had a Calvin Johnson type guy who can just physically dominate good coverage you can hope for a 50/50 play, but we don't.

 

That play's only chance of success was for a throw to come out on time before the WR reached the level of that back zone coverage.  And for that to happen, we needed a better play design and call.

[GOATFrerotte]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

All throws in the West Coast Offensive philosophy are designed to be completed at the end of the drop.  The release is actually supposed to come before the WR fully finishes their break.  When you hold onto the ball instead of throwing it after your drop, that means the play is now off schedule and you are playing outside of the design of the play.  In high-lows like that concept, the QB reads high to low, so basically he's reading one part of the field.  On this play, he's reading the flat defender and making his decision based off of what that guy decides to do.  The flat defender bailed and dropped super deep to carry that slot receiver down the field, which meant the intended window of the throw to Terry never materialized.  That's why Haskins moved off of him to the low read.

 

Let's say Haskins abandons the playcall after the window to Terry failed to develop and takes it off schedule.  It's a scramble drill and Haskins has three vertical options to beat an eight man zone, and none of them are jump ball guys.  That is not going to get it done.  If you think there was a chance for something to happen in that scenario, then I'd say you have unrealistic expectations about the quality of NFL secondaries, especially a good one like theirs.  Maybe if we had a Calvin Johnson type guy who can just physically dominate good coverage you can hope for a 50/50 play, but we don't.

 

That play's only chance of success was for a throw to come out on time before the WR reached the level of that back zone coverage.  And for that to happen, we needed a better play design and call.

None of those guys are running verticals. They’re working their way across trying to find a soft spot in the zone. There is no written rule that in the west coast offense and 4th and long that you have to throw at the end of your drop. That’s you just making something up. The play has multiple layers and reads to it and requires a qb who can buy enough time to let it develop. 
 

You’re even making up what would happen if the play broke down and went to scramble drill, lmao. I can’t handle that level of Haskins homerism. You have zero clue what would have happened if Haskins let the play developed or tried to make a play if it broke down. The last thing he should have done is what he did and you’re here defending that. Ha

[Conn]

Maybe this is ignorant, but why does it matter what the design of the play is if he’s told to throw into the end zone and give a guy a chance at the ball? In no scenario is the choice he made the right one regardless of the design of the play in a vacuum. Throwing a checkdown there does nothing at all. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

All throws in the West Coast Offensive philosophy are designed to be completed at the end of the drop.  The release is actually supposed to come before the WR fully finishes their break.  When you hold onto the ball instead of throwing it after your drop, that means the play is now off schedule and you are playing outside of the design of the play.  In high-lows like that concept, the QB reads high to low, so basically he's reading one part of the field.  On this play, he's reading the flat defender and making his decision based off of what that guy decides to do.  The flat defender bailed and dropped super deep to carry that slot receiver down the field, which meant the intended window of the throw to Terry never materialized.  That's why Haskins moved off of him to the low read.

 

Let's say Haskins abandons the playcall after the window to Terry failed to develop and takes it off schedule.  It's a scramble drill and Haskins has three vertical options to beat an eight man zone, and none of them are jump ball guys.  That is not going to get it done.  If you think there was a chance for something to happen in that scenario, then I'd say you have unrealistic expectations about the quality of NFL secondaries, especially a good one like theirs.  Maybe if we had a Calvin Johnson type guy who can just physically dominate good coverage you can hope for a 50/50 play, but we don't.

 

That play's only chance of success was for a throw to come out on time before the WR reached the level of that back zone coverage.  And for that to happen, we needed a better play design and call.

It was 4th and forever dude. There is no realistic read that’ll result in a TD. You’re thinking about this like Kirk cousins. The play might call for something but context is King. In context of that play, it’s a Hail Mary heave to the end zone. All other mechanisms are irrelevant. Throw the ball in the end zone and hope for a good play. No one would look at him crazy for throwing a pick. 

[SoCalSkins]

6 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Maybe this is ignorant, but why does it matter what the design of the play is if he’s told to throw into the end zone and give a guy a chance at the ball? In no scenario is the choice he made the right one regardless of the design of the play in a vacuum. Throwing a checkdown there does nothing at all. 

That’s the reasonable explanation and chalk it up as a bad play. However, when a player is in danger of being benched, his supporters usually twist themselves into knots to defend even egregious mistakes and blame someone else. It happens as each QB era starts coming to an end. The more absurd the defense, the closer you are to the end. We’ve pretty much reached critical mass on this one. The end is nigh...

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Maybe this is ignorant, but why does it matter what the design of the play is if he’s told to throw into the end zone and give a guy a chance at the ball? In no scenario is the choice he made the right one regardless of the design of the play in a vacuum. Throwing a checkdown there does nothing at all. 

 

The design of the playcall matters because a good playcall has a design that actually gives your players a chance for success.  This was a bad playcall because it didn't do that.  This isn't a MMQB revelation either, we knew what defense the Ravens were going to run because there is really only one defense that makes sense to run in that situation.  There wasn't even any decent off schedule contingency built into it, i.e. Wright is driving to the sideline and not the goal line, McKissick isn't useful personnel in the situation and he's running a useless protection and delayed route to the flat, McLauren is our only good receiver and he was crowded boundary side with another slot receiver meshing with him in the end zone, etc.

 

Do we really have to argue about which is the best of a suite of bad options in a bad playcall?  That a Hail Mary throw to one of three guys running through an eight man zone is a 3% probability of success vs a low option checkdown having a 2% chance vs Dwayne scrambling the ball in himself having a 3%?  The problem is the playcall and it was a consistent problem yesterday.

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is what we have been trying to explain to @stevemcqueen1.  As I said he looked away from the receivers and zeroed in on the check down before the receivers even got to the goal line.  The corner to Terry was there, he chose to check down on 4th and goal.  I have no idea why he can't just admit that throw was a terrible decision.

[Conn]

@stevemcqueen1I get it everything you’re saying, in a vacuum. But he was told to ignore the normal design of the play obviously, because he was told to chuck it into the end zone. And didn’t. Checking down there makes no sense. 

[SoCalSkins]

38 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

I had no reason to really dislike Haskins before that, I just don’t like his on field performance but the agent makes me start disliking him. Those situations rarely end well and usually end up being more problems than they’re worth. Not a good sign.

Players who tell fans how to be fans are always trouble. If a player says don’t be a fan later, that’s a flashing red flag. The fans were here long before you and will be here long after you’re gone. Starting out with an antagonistic attitude with the fan base is almost always guaranteed failure. They see themselves as bigger than they are.  

You add immaturity to that and an interfering parent or agent then it’s guaranteed failure. A man who is a starting NFL QB and captain on an NFL team shouldn’t need his agent to defend him like he’s looking for his helicopter parents to parachute in and save the day. It’s a pathetic look and the opposite of leadership and accountability. I’m fairly certain Ron is disgusted by it.

 

 

[Going Commando]

  

20 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

None of those guys are running verticals. They’re working their way across trying to find a soft spot in the zone. There is no written rule that in the west coast offense and 4th and long that you have to throw at the end of your drop. That’s you just making something up.

 

Tell that to Bill Walsh.  Good Lord man, I'm trying to be nice here and break it down as simple as possible but it's not getting through.  Can someone else step in and explain the fundamentals for quarterbacking here?

 

24 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

You’re even making up what would happen if the play broke down and went to scramble drill, lmao. I can’t handle that level of Haskins homerism. You have zero clue what would have happened if Haskins let the play developed or tried to make a play if it broke down. The last thing he should have done is what he did and you’re here defending that. Ha

 

Nah man.  Knowing that three WRs, none of whom are jump ball specialists, aren't going to beat an NFL caliber eight man zone isn't some sort of crystal ball guesswork.  It should be obvious to any fan really.

[GOATFrerotte]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

  

 

Tell that to Bill Walsh.  Good Lord man, I'm trying to be nice here and break it down as simple as possible but it's not getting through.  Can someone else step in and explain the fundamentals for quarterbacking here?

 

 

Nah man.  Knowing that three WRs, none of whom are jump ball specialists, aren't going to beat an NFL caliber eight man zone isn't some sort of crystal ball guesswork.  It should be obvious to any fan really.

Lmao, so you’re saying under no situation is a qb allowed to extend a play or make a play in the west coast offense because Bill Walsh apparently made that a rule? Is that what you’re teaching me. Good lord, it’s obvious to every single person but you that he should not have thrown that pass. Not sure what else needs to be said, but good luck continuing to defend it and pretending to “know” football even more than Ron Rivera himself.

[Skin'emAlive]

You are wasting your time, Steve. Dude made up his mind and has been saying this stuff since the day he was drafted. The realistic thing to do is build up Dwaynes confidence this year, and see what we have by the end of it. If he doesn’t flash anything by the end of the year, then we can start having the conversation of replacement. For now, it’s best to give a young qb the opportunity to grow ( a 4th and forever into a prevent defense is not a good opportunity however). 

[Going Commando]

7 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

@stevemcqueen1I get it everything you’re saying, in a vacuum. But he was told to ignore the normal design of the play obviously, because he was told to chuck it into the end zone. And didn’t. Checking down there makes no sense. 

 

Let's assess the separate failures here.  What do you think is the bigger issue?  That Haskins failed to execute something off schedule after a lousy playcall, or that Turner made what was essentially a non-competitive playcall in that situation?  And that wasn't the only one, it came in a sequence of many preseason type playcalls that suggest the coaches did not honestly compete that game.

 

The situation being what it is, why is Haskins the only member of the team not getting the benefit of the doubt?

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Let's assess the separate failures here.  What do you think is the bigger issue?  That Haskins failed to execute something off schedule after a lousy playcall, or that Turner made what was essentially a non-competitive playcall in that situation?  And that wasn't the only one, it came in a sequence of many preseason type playcalls that suggest the coaches did not honestly compete that game.

 

The situation being what it is, why is Haskins the only member of the team not getting the benefit of the doubt?

I guess I don’t see where our disconnect is here, I thought I was being clear that I 100% understand what you’re posting about, but you keep ignoring that Haskins was told to throw into the endzone there and despite not being pressured, didn’t do it. That’s what I’m posting about, it seems important on a different level. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Let's assess the separate failures here.  What do you think is the bigger issue?  That Haskins failed to execute something off schedule after a lousy playcall, or that Turner made what was essentially a non-competitive playcall in that situation?  And that wasn't the only one, it came in a sequence of many preseason type playcalls that suggest the coaches did not honestly compete that game.

 

The situation being what it is, why is Haskins the only member of the team not getting the benefit of the doubt?

FWIW, I don't think there's really a play you can draw up in that situation, with down/distance and clock, which will get anybody open initially.

 

If you have a ridiculously talented WR at going up and getting a ball, like Calvin Johnson in his prime, that's one way of doing it.

 

You can scheme up a short throw and line up blockers to try and spring the guy free.

 

But in most instances, the way that is coached is, "here's the play.  Most likely everything will be covered.  If it is, try and run around until you see something you can try and hit."

 

They could have tried a trick play.  A hook and ladder sometimes works in those situations if you have an undisciplined defense.  Throw the ball to a crosser going one way, then have him flip it to a guy going the other way.  

 

But here's the thing, there's just almost nothing you can do to scheme a guy open in this situation, so you call something, and then you ask your players to go figure out how to make a play.

 

And FWIW, I don't really care about the 4th down play.  It was probably a 3% chance under the best of circumstances, with the perfect play call and the perfect execution.  Do I think Dwayne should have checked it down?  No.  Would I like to have seen him have the situational awareness to extend the play and try and make something happen, even if something bad happened?  Yes.  But honestly, I don't think anything good was going to happen so I care less.

 

The egregious play was the sack for -18.  I will repeat my exact post from the game day thread:

 

You can't do that.

You can't do that.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

 

Free blitzer, bad protection, whatever, you can't run backwards 18 yards and get tackled.  Even a sack for 10 yards isn't the end of the world.  But 18?  Man, you just can't do that.  

 

That's the play that really bothers me.  I don't know how it all broke down, but as a QB, it doesn't matter, in that situation, you can't let that happen.  

[SoCalSkins]

40 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

You are wasting your time, Steve. Dude made up his mind and has been saying this stuff since the day he was drafted. The realistic thing to do is build up Dwaynes confidence this year, and see what we have by the end of it. If he doesn’t flash anything by the end of the year, then we can start having the conversation of replacement. For now, it’s best to give a young qb the opportunity to grow ( a 4th and forever into a prevent defense is not a good opportunity however). 

So why do you get to dictate how long of an opportunity he should get? Do you have examples of similarly situated QBs bouncing back with their team? Why does a professional athlete drafted in the first round and is voted a captain of his team need to have his confidence built up? Isn’t it a leader’s job to build the confidence of those around him

instead?
 

As far as who made up their mind when. Given the results so far it’s fairly obvious those who weren’t sold early have been vindicated. It’s those who claimed he would be a franchise QB who are left grasping at straws at this point no?

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Where are these leaks coming from? Unfortunate, was hopeful these type of stories would be gone, but probably unavoidable in a city with a QB issue?

 

[KDawg]

By leaks do you mean Haskins’ agent?

[Conn]

Just now, KDawg said:

By leaks do you mean Haskins’ agent?

Guessing he means the article his agent quote tweeted, but that seems more like speculation than leaks.

[KDawg]

Just now, ConnSKINS26 said:

Guessing he means the article his agent quote tweeted, but that seems more like speculation than leaks.

Rivera said Haskins would be accountable for his play outright. I’m confused why that is considered a leak.

[SoCalSkins]

11 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Guessing he means the article his agent quote tweeted, but that seems more like speculation than leaks.

It wasn’t an article it was Haskins’ attorney and agent issuing a statement via Twitter on behalf of his client to the report Ian Rappaport issued. It was a passive aggressive way for Haskins to respond without using his own social media. The effect is actually far worse because he needs a paid defender to stand up for him instead of responding on the field with his play. A resounding failure on so many levels. 
 

 

[Conn]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

It wasn’t an article it was Haskins’ attorney and agent issuing a statement via Twitter on behalf of his client to the report Ian Rappaport issued. It was a passive aggressive way for Haskins to respond without using his own social media. The effect is actually far worse because he needs a paid defender to stand up for him instead of responding on the field with his play. A resounding failure on so many levels. 
 

 

Right but how’s that a leak problem? That’s what’s being discussed, someone said they thought our days of leaks were done. Don’t see that in his agents tweet so I assumed it must be a commentary on the article the agent quote tweeted. Doesn’t really fit either way