FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

I think Haskins' 4th down play is bit overly dissected.  I take Rivera at his word that he failed at this specific test.  If he thought he made the right throw, I'd think he'd say so -- Rivera doesn't seem the type to beat a player up for no reason.  Regardless, though its just one play.  

 

I pulled the coaches tape myself.  It looks like Haskins initially looks at McLaurin.  but decides ultimately to go to Wright. 

 

 

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Right but how’s that a leak problem? That’s what’s being discussed, someone said they thought our days of leaks were done. Don’t see that in his agents tweet so I assumed it must be a commentary on the article the agent quote tweeted. Doesn’t really fit either way 

It’s not a leak. It was such an egregious violation of standard protocol that it probably confused the poster that a player’s representative with the player’s consent would publicly issue that statement. Normally you would leak that as an unnamed source. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

You know what...I think this play might have worked (...might have...) if Wright had got off the ball at the same time as the others, or had gone one more step vertical.  That underneath defender was this close to completely turning his hips away from McLaurin.

 

There could have been a tiny window to throw for Haskins.  Maybe there was to McLaurin...but we're talking small enough it's easy to see why Haskins bailed.  Inman was basically doubled.  The deep guys are keying him and move in relation to how Inman is moving into the endzone.  McLaurin did a nice job, his underzone defender was stuck on the hashmarks and didn't feel comfortable closing space laterally.  All that's left is to figure out how to get the underzone defender responsible for Wright to commit more to Wright.  Cause if Haskins rockets it in there, the underzone defender over Wright can make a play on the ball, but that's it.  Haskins would also need to make the decision to throw that right after McLaurin plants his foot for the break on about the 3 yard line.

 

All that said, the window for the throw even if the underzone defender over Wright stuck on him a step longer would still be tiny.  

[skinbuck]

[wit33]

 

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Right but how’s that a leak problem? That’s what’s being discussed, someone said they thought our days of leaks were done. Don’t see that in his agents tweet so I assumed it must be a commentary on the article the agent quote tweeted. Doesn’t really fit either way

 

 

Who are the sources Ian Rapp is referring to about pressure if Haskins doesn’t play well?There were also reports coming into this weeks game. 

I could be missing something though, I catch most of the news in this thread. 

[SoCalSkins]

22 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

 

Who are the sources Ian Rapp is referring to about pressure if Haskins doesn’t play well?There were also reports coming into this weeks game. 

I could be missing something though, I catch most of the news in this thread. 

The source was Ron Rivera on the record. The only thing with an anonymous source that was reported was by JP Finley Friday that Ron had met with Haskins and basically told him the same comments in a private meeting. That’s not really a leak it’s the coach reiterating to the player what the coach said to the media.

 

 

 

[wit33]

12 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The source was Ron Rivera on the record. The only thing with an anonymous source that was reported was by JP Finley Friday that Ron had met with Haskins and basically told him the same comments in a private meeting. That’s not really a leak it’s the coach reiterating to the player what the coach said to the media.

 

 

 

What’s the point in letting anyone know about the meeting with Haskins. Why leak it? It serves no purpose. 
 

If Rivera made or received a call from Rapp and shared this then he’s a whole another type of dude than I thought he was. 

[Dark Acre]

The correct call in that 4th down situation is Haskins takes off and his WRs block their man.  He doesn't have to be super fast; he just needs to have super heart.

[FootballZombie]

5 hours ago, skinbuck said:

 

 

When you remove peoples bias, it is not surprising to see 92% of people choose to want Haskins as their QB in that blind study.

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

When you remove peoples bias, it is not surprising to see 92% of people choose to want Haskins as their QB in that blind study.

So the argument is that people would choose Haskins, based solely off of statistics over Daniel Jones and Sam Darnold?

 

Gentlemen and ladies... this is what we call a low bar.

[Thinking Skins]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So the argument is that people would choose Haskins, based solely off of statistics over Daniel Jones and Sam Darnold?

 

Gentlemen and ladies... this is what we call a low bar.

Nah, the argument is the question of why of the three QBs, the national narrative (and in some markets local as well) is only calling for one of them to be benched, like right now. NY is calling for firing of their coach because he's stunting Eli, I mean Jones's development. And we've seen the stories about how bad Gase is as a coach. But the stories are not questioning Rivera's timeouts and his plan for Haskins. Maybe Haskins is not the guy (and I don't think that him not having a career arc of a top 5 QB is a reason to bench him), but because he didn't throw it into double coverage to what could have been a pic-6 isn't a reason to downgrade his game. The Wright decision was a bad one (not worse than the sack a few plays earlier) but we've seen shifty backs and WRs make something out of nothing all the time, heck look at what OBJ did against dallas on the last play of the game. Look at the Baltimore 4th and forever that Flacco threw to the running back on a draw play and he just made guys miss and got the conversion (happened years ago but it was a famous play because how uniikely it was). 4th and 13 has like 1% of succeeding no matter what. If the split between coach and QB is because they had different ways of getting to that 1%, I don't know what to say. 

[KDawg]

Huh?

 

So, the new HC with a very positive track record who has stated it’s an evaluation season NOT being the story over Adam Gase, the Jets, Daniel Jones, etc., LOCALLY is the problem?

 

I live in the Buffalo market. I assure you, other than a quick blurb, no one remotely cares about Haskins. They aren’t talking about Haskins. When I talk about WFT they say, “Yeah, you guys got that one receiver”.

 

They don’t know or care about Haskins. 
 

Listening to the Ringer NFL show, Bill Simmons podcast, Ross Tucker’s podcast, etc., Washington is barely mentioned.

 

And being from NY, I have yet to hear most Giant fans talk about firing Judge. So I have to be honest, I think we’re so sensitive to everything that we see a story, think it’s a national big deal and wonder why we’re so different. 
 

Haskins isn’t good. Why do we shift the narrative around here? I don’t get it. The comparison between Haskins, Jones and Darnold is poor. I’d rather not have any of them, personally speaking. None were guys I was high on out of college, I thought Darnold had the most potential of them... but he’s pretty much ruined at this point. Much like Haskins given his circumstance. 
 

If you think the problem with Haskins play has been based off of one play, you’re purposely nit picking to defend poor play. I notice you said nothing about the sack, the poor mechanics, the commentary, the lack of pocket presence, his unawareness or blitz situations and his protection sets, his inaccuracy... and to top it off directly defying what the coach told him when they wanted him to take a shot in the end zone. 
 

Despite some here, Haskins isn’t the worst QB ever. He’s probably not even the worst in the league, though he’s currently in that lower tier. 
 

But the fact that you’re saying, “not being a top 5 QB isn’t grounds for benching” is absolutely jaw dropping. Top 5? He’s not top 25.

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I live in the Buffalo market. I assure you, other than a quick blurb, no one remotely cares about Haskins. They aren’t talking about Haskins. When I talk about WFT they say, “Yeah, you guys got that one receiver”.

 

They don’t know or care about Haskins. 
 

Listening to the Ringer NFL show, Bill Simmons podcast, Ross Tucker’s podcast, etc., Washington is barely mentioned.

 

And being from NY, I have yet to hear most Giant fans talk about firing Judge. So I have to be honest, I think we’re so sensitive to everything that we see a story, think it’s a national big deal and wonder why we’re so different. 

There have been articles on the ringer, espn, etc calling for Haskins to be benched. These same publications have put out stories about how bad a coach Gase is and how Judge is harming Jones. Its national reporting that's acting like Haskins is the clear and obvious worse selection of the three. In terms of local stories, the twitter conversation is about how the fans of those teams are supporting their young QBs more than RedWolves fans are supporting Haskins. 

[Thinking Skins]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

But the fact that you’re saying, “not being a top 5 QB isn’t grounds for benching” is absolutely jaw dropping. Top 5? He’s not top 25.

Go back and re-read that. i said career arc of a top 5 QB. If you're saying that his career arc is not top 25 then there is nothing to talk about here. I see that he can clearly execute an Alex Smith type offense as that's what he did most of the games last year (minus the 2nd Giants and 2nd Eagles game where he showed more). Then he showed the Alex Smith style of play against Philly, Arizona and Baltimore. The only game he didn't do the Alex Smith style play was against Cleveland.

 

We can win with that style of play. Its not top-5 style but its not bottom 5 either. I'd say that its the style of play that's somewhere in the middle of the pack, and its the same style of play that made fans hate Alex Smith and hate early Cousins. The question is can he rise above that and do more. That deep ball to TMac was him doing more. How much more can he do? That's what I'm eager to find out. 

[MartinC]

11 hours ago, httr2020dynasty said:

There is nothing in that video that proves your point that it was meant to be thrown when he completes his drop.

That’s literally how pass plays are designed. Now sometimes the intended play is taken away and the QB tries to extend the play and create something outside the design (which might be what Haskins should have attempted here) - but pass play design is for the ball to come out on time at the top of the drop.

[KDawg]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

There have been articles on the ringer, espn, etc calling for Haskins to be benched. These same publications have put out stories about how bad a coach Gase is and how Judge is harming Jones. Its national reporting that's acting like Haskins is the clear and obvious worse selection of the three. In terms of local stories, the twitter conversation is about how the fans of those teams are supporting their young QBs more than RedWolves fans are supporting Haskins. 

Okay, and? Haskins has played poorly. Why wouldn’t there be articles about it? That doesn’t mean he’s a big national story.

 

Do you honestly think the Jets firing Gase isn’t a much larger national conversation? He’s pretty much maligned by absolutely every talking head. Even guys who are friends with him on some of these podcasts have said he’s got to go. 
 

Haskins has the unfortunate problem that he was picked by Dan Snyder. Washington fans don’t like Dan Snyder. 
 

But making the conversation about Haskins vs. Jones vs. Darnold is like comparing teams 5th receivers against each other. 
 

If you want my honest long term opinion on Haskins vs. Darnold vs. Jones, and I have to pick one, it’s Haskins. Darnold is second. And it’s close. Jones is the third guy for me. I think Haskins can mature and go to another team and become a good QB. I think Haskins had a chance here if he was drafted into a team with a steady HC and was drafted to sit on the bench for a few years. We know that didn’t happen and he got absolutely thrown into a bad spot. 
 

Darnold is similar. In a different situation he can turn it around.

 

I don’t think Jones is more than a backup in the NFL in almost any situation.

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Go back and re-read that. i said career arc of a top 5 QB. If you're saying that his career arc is not top 25 then there is nothing to talk about here. I see that he can clearly execute an Alex Smith type offense as that's what he did most of the games last year (minus the 2nd Giants and 2nd Eagles game where he showed more). Then he showed the Alex Smith style of play against Philly, Arizona and Baltimore. The only game he didn't do the Alex Smith style play was against Cleveland.

 

We can win with that style of play. Its not top-5 style but its not bottom 5 either. I'd say that its the style of play that's somewhere in the middle of the pack, and its the same style of play that made fans hate Alex Smith and hate early Cousins. The question is can he rise above that and do more. That deep ball to TMac was him doing more. How much more can he do? That's what I'm eager to find out. 

Do you think his career arc is anything close to top 15 given what we’ve seen? Even top 20? We can only project based on the things we’ve seen, not what we haven’t. 
 

If we’re talking projections I think he’s a Derek Carr ceiling from what we’ve seen thus far. 

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

That’s literally how pass plays are designed. Now sometimes the intended play is taken away and the QB tries to extend the play and create something outside the design (which might be what Haskins should have attempted here) - but pass play design is for the ball to come out on time at the top of the drop.

This is robotic thought processing and doesn’t at all account for situational football.

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This is robotic thought processing and doesn’t at all account for situational football.

The unrobotic bit would be ... (which is where you want your QB to be aware of the situation).

 

7 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Now sometimes the intended play is taken away and the QB tries to extend the play and create something outside the design

But in that sequence of plays IMO the really bad play by Haskins was taking the 18 yard sack a few snaps previously. That’s the play I was even more frustrated with than the dump off on 4th down - and I was frustrated with that as well by the way.

[DJHJR86]

Daniel Jones struggling does not mean Haskins is better.  Jones has thrown over 25 touchdowns in his rookie season.  Something Alex Smith only ever did one time in his entire career.  

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

If you want my honest long term opinion on Haskins vs. Darnold vs. Jones, and I have to pick one, it’s Haskins. Darnold is second. And it’s close. Jones is the third guy for me. I think Haskins can mature and go to another team and become a good QB. I think Haskins had a chance here if he was drafted into a team with a steady HC and was drafted to sit on the bench for a few years. We know that didn’t happen and he got absolutely thrown into a bad spot. 
 

Darnold is similar. In a different situation he can turn it around.

But that's just the thing. They're all young and all were drafted with the hopes of being franchise QBs. None are making such critical mistakes to look like they don't belong in the league. So why not give them a chance to grow. This is the conversation in the NY markets about fans and their growing QB. But its not the conversation here because we love to get rid of a QB. 

 

What I think is sad that both the Jets and Washington markets are horrible for QBs because we ALWAYS want a new QB. The Giants stuck with Eli and now will probably stick with Jones because that's what they do. And even though I don't think either is, was or will be an elite QB, Eli took them to two SB championships and it wouldn't surprise me if Jones did the same. They just have more patience there, and because they've had success as a franchise they can ignore the media and their fans aren't screaming "aaaarg its been 30 years, I haven't had a team to root for since blah, all I want to do is see a playoff game, etc" and they are more patient. Its funny even writing that. NYG fans are more patient than DC fans. I never thought Phil Simms was that good of a QB but they did and he took them to SBs. Same with Eli and we'll see with Jones. Meanwhile Cousins will build his resume in Minnesota. Trent Green built his career in STL and KC. Brad Johnson won the SB in Tampa Bay.

 

We said we'd rather play an aged Brunell (and chase that winning season) than develop Ramsey. We said we'd rather play an aged McNabb than develop Campbell. We said we'd rather play an aged Smith than pay a Cousins who we developed. And its like a chorus of a song. We're going to say we'd rather play an aged Cam/Smith/Rivers whoever than develop Haskins. 

 

Its OK. I love my team and I love my city, but eventually we'll learn to develop players. 

[KDawg]

Maybe we just haven’t found a quarterback. 

[Llevron]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Maybe we just haven’t found a quarterback. 

Probably 

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Maybe we just haven’t found a quarterback. 

Most QBs ‘fail’. It’s a safe bet to project any QB drafted to be a bust - and how you define ‘fail’ and ‘bust’ is subjective of course and there is a scale from say JaMarcus Russell to say Kirk Cousins (if you define fail as not taking a talented roster to a Super Bowl).

 

Next draft there will likely be 3 QBs taken high first round - let’s say in the first 10 or 12 picks. One of them is already being put into Canton by most fans the other two are more subjective in terms of how you grade and project them. For all 3 where they end up and the situation will have as much to do with how they develop as their own ability and attitude. Odds are high at least two will fail and maybe all 3, and that the guy who is the consensus to go first overall could very well fail as well.

 

It would be interesting to see some analysis on the hit rate of QBs over say the last 10 years and previous eras. I would think the hit rate is declining simply because free agency and the salary cap (and social media/expectation) shorten time frames for making decisions on QBs ... and GM’s and HC’s. In today’s NFL Terry Bradshaw doesn’t see a second contract let alone a Super Bowl ring.

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Maybe we just haven’t found a quarterback. 

But why have some of these QBs worked in other places? We can go back to Gus. Maybe he was set to be a backup QB. After the head butt he was never the same, but he was showing us that he had potential. We re-sign him and he gets hurt. In comes Trent Green. 

 

Ok, Trent Green has a great year but can't re-sign because of the ownership stuff. So we've found one potential franchise QB that we have to let go. Trent goes on to have a good not great career. Could have been great if he could have been a part of what was going on in STL, but whatever. 

 

Next we sign Brad Johnson. He's Mr. Nobody in terms of QBs, but he comes here and with Turner looks like an elite QB. I mean 4000 yards passing, two 1000 yard WRs, a 1000 yard rusher and we're looking like we're set to go. What do we do with him? We let him go because he's not a franchise guy. 

 

So on to Jeff George - Leadership is overrated. So bad that we have to play Mr I'm Not a QB - Tony Banks. Banks plays so well that we let him go for Shane Matthews and Danny Woefull. But there's hope in Patrick Ramsey. 

 

Will Ol Ball Coach develop Ramsey? Will Gibbs? Nope. Lets just sign Brunell. Brunell gets old lets draft Campbell. Oh, Shanny didn't want Campbell, lets trade him for nothing and sign McNabb. Oh, McNabb is old, lets draft RG3. Oh, Gruden didn't want RG3, lets play McCoy, but Cousins wins out. But nobody wants Cousins even though he's the best QB this franchise has had in decades, so we let him walk and sign an old man in Smith. Smith gets hurt and we are forced to sign street FAs to come in and play. Johnson actually wins a game. But we don't want him back. We go and sign Haskins. But the coach doesn't want Haskins so we fire the coach and hire a new coach who ... guess what ... doesn't want Haskins. 

 

This is not just about us not finding a QB. This is a pattern about the instability of this franchise. We have a bunch of egos and guys who want to win their way with their guys. We saw freakin Blake Bortels take a team to a championship game. We saw Mark Sanches take the Jets to the playoffs twice. 

 

If this were JUST about Haskins I could get behind him not being the guy. But when we have a history as a franchise over the last 22 years (from 98 on) of not giving young guys a chance to grow and develop, then its not a Haskins problem, its a Haskins/Cousins/Campbell/Ramsey/Johnson/Green/Ferotte problem. No they're not all pros but they are young QBs who we invested in and could have done more to keep once they showed they could stay afloat as the team was built, but instead we always go for the shiny toy. 

 

Look at how Rivera's language is changing. This was a development year and he was all about learning what we have. its why we didn't sign any FAs, its why we are playing guys like Christian and Apke and Haskins and Wright and cut AP. But now this is no longer a development year and we're all in on winning the division because Dallas and Philly and NY suck? 

 

Its whatever. I'm getting too excited about this. This is my team and my city but sometimes they're just boneheaded. I'll just go back to playing Madden

[DJHJR86]

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

If this were JUST about Haskins I could get behind him not being the guy. But when we have a history as a franchise over the last 22 years (from 98 on) of not giving young guys a chance to grow and develop, then its not a Haskins problem, its a Haskins/Cousins/Campbell/Ramsey/Johnson/Green/Ferotte problem.

 

If only there was one constant during that 20+ year stretch...

 

[Skinsinparadise]

As a dude who reads the NY sports pages regularly and who didn't like either Haskins or Daniel Jones before the draft albeit I was much more critical of Jones -- yep Jones has gotten his share of flak, and is going through a similar ride too.  I don't see why it matters though?

 

I think the one thing that slightly helps Jones is he was considered on the aggregate by most of the media as having a decent rookie campaign.   But nonethless, he is having a tough time.  Darnold, too.  But to me one person's struggles doesn't mean anything to the other ones.  It's irrelevant.

 

To me Jones and Haskins have some in common.  They both IMO have upside but not special upside.  They both can make it in this league.  I wouldn't bet on either one to ever become a top 10 QB but wouldn't shock me if either evolves into an Andy Dalton type.  Streaky types but without ever killing it.  I have more faith in Haskins over Jones.  But I'd say coming off of season 1 the national media has more faith in Jones versus Haskins.  I think that's leveling off.  But to me I don't see why it would matter. 

 

https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2020/09/27/ny-giants-more-daniel-jones-struggles-more-uncertainty-there/3532119001/

If Daniel Jones and NY Giants keep playing like this, questions about his future will persist

Art Stapleton

NFL writer

 

 

https://nypost.com/2020/10/05/giants-still-have-faith-in-struggling-daniel-jones/

Asked a blanket question Monday about how long it takes to be sure that a young quarterback is right for the job, the Giants’ first-year head coach saw through the generality and offered a vote of confidence for his struggling second-year starter.

“If you are asking if Daniel is our quarterback, Daniel is our quarterback,” Judge said. “That’s who we are playing with, and we support him. We have a lot of confidence in him. We have faith in him.”

Jones has committed seven turnovers during the Giants’ 0-4 start, which includes back-to-back games without a touchdown for the first time since 1998. Only the Eagles’ Carson Wentz has a lower quarterback rating than Jones (68.3) among full-time starters.