FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[wit33]

36 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Not that it matters at ALL, but what's getting lost in this 4th down bad decision is that he essentially made the same decision on 3rd down too.  Take 2 damn shots to the end zone. 

 

He has zero situational awareness. 
 

 

Against the Browns he was criticized by many on this board for being to aggressive and not taking the check downs. 
 

Sure, is he young and some situations eat him up at times, but overall his situational awareness and poise are solid (whatever that means lol)

 

32 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

None of this jives with his decision on 4th down yesterday to throw the checkdown without pressure. I don’t care how poorly it was drawn up, that decision from Haskins makes no sense. Especially given he was told to go to the end zone and give someone a chance. He didn’t. How is that “unique wiring” or “refusing to be neutered” (I know you said this about Favre but your implication is obviously that Haskins also has this DGAF attitude and gunslinger nature)?

Must preface that my support for For Haskins has teetered from 65% to in favor to 65% not in favor of him. Have not reached a conclusion, though, should any one ever reach conclusion at all in life

 

I do feel he has/had an aggressive approach to quarterbacking and in his mind is equipped with an arm that can make any throw. Not absolving Haskins or prior quarterbacks, but many coaching staffs fail QBs or lead them to mediocrity, which can lead to making 20-30mil a year for the QB and the coach keeping his job for a year or two longer while winning 7-9 games and not taking any risks.
 

The game plan against the Browns provided Haskins and the team the opportunity to put 40 points on the board, the Ravens game plan was the collectively deciding to play it safe due to fear of getting 50 points hung on them. The Skins had no chance schematically to put 24 points on the board. 
 

To be completely honest, I’m shocked at how Rivera is approaching this season. He has come off as smug, entitled, and one who knows he has full power for years to come. My one fear with him getting all this power was him never managing this type of power and it getting the best of him. I was very much pro Rivera coming and still remain locked in as a fan for the long run. 
 

 

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Mixture of everything, what they are asked to do, what kind of offense they run, what have they accomplished (playoffs)

 

stuff like that.

 

Wilson, Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers score high on metrics like that with players like Jackson, Goff, Big Ben, Carr, Allen and Prescott not getting to the tippy top

 

Mine: 

 

1. Wilson

2. Mahomes

3. Rodgers

4. Jackson

5. Allen

6. Newton

7. Dak

8. Stafford

9. Brees

10. Brady

11. Roethlisberger

12. Murray

13. Goff

14. Ryan

15. Tannehill

16. Watson (I'd normally have him higher, but he has had a rough year. He's likely still a top 10 guy, but I made this list based on my eye test along with some metrics)

17. This is about where I place Derek Carr.

 

There's some wiggle here. Brees could be top 5. But he's in the 5-10 range.

 

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

We as a fan base have been dying for the team to catch up with the rest of the league in terms of the spread attack, quick pass game, RB involvement in the pass game, and screens, now that this has arrived we are dying to get back to old school 5 and 7 step drop backs (hyperbole) lol. 

 

I actually think the game planning and play calling the last two weeks in general has been pretty good. You can always MMQB on specific play designs and calls - but overall Turner has been trying to get the ball to Terry and Gibson as much as he can and get the ball out of Haskins' hands quickly to protect Haskins and the O'line  and getting running backs more targets generally to try to manufacture alternatives to Terry given the lack of quality behind him at WR.

 

I do think we need ti take some more shots downfield though - but I would look for that to be off slant and gos and WR screen looks. We have shown a ton of slants and WR screens lately, defenders are going to start squatting on those.

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Mine: 

 

16. Watson (I'd normally have him higher, but he has had a rough year. He's likely still a top 10 guy, but I made this list based on my eye test along with some metrics)

 

 

Watson could start to climb higher quickly now Bill O'Brien has been fired!

[KDawg]

This may seem off-topic, but I'm trying to get a feel for the positions of several posters in this thread so I can better navigate my conversations:

 

Let's talk Josh Rosen for a second.

 

Did the Cardinals fail to develop him? Was his failure based on the Cardinals system? Himself?

 

Why is Kyler Murray playing better for the Cardinals (or at the very least have their fans trending more positively than Rosen?)

 

I certainly have my thoughts, but I'd like to see yours before I go too much into this...

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Mine: 

 

1. Wilson

2. Mahomes

3. Rodgers

4. Jackson

5. Allen

6. Newton

7. Dak

8. Stafford

9. Brees

10. Brady

11. Roethlisberger

12. Murray

13. Goff

14. Ryan

15. Tannehill

16. Watson (I'd normally have him higher, but he has had a rough year. He's likely still a top 10 guy, but I made this list based on my eye test along with some metrics)

17. This is about where I place Derek Carr.

 

There's some wiggle here. Brees could be top 5. But he's in the 5-10 range.

 

It’s interesting your top 10 has Stafford and Cam as the only top 5 picks in the draft. I think you can easily argue that Stafford belongs a few places lower as well. Making Cam on his second team as the only top 5 pick in the top 10. Seemingly there is top 10 QB talent littered in mid to late first round and a few gems after that.

[KDawg]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

It’s interesting your top 10 has Stafford and Cam as the only top 5 picks in the draft. I think you can easily argue that Stafford belongs a few places lower as well. Making Cam on his second team as the only top 5 pick in the top 10. Seemingly there is top 10 QB talent littered in mid to late first round and a few gems after that.

 

I could see the Stafford argument, and I wouldn't go against it. Talk about a guy who has been dealt bad hands though. You look up "bad hand" in the dictionary and right next to Rod Gardner's picture there's a pic of Stafford. 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You think the development of Haskins was doomed to fail the moment we drafted him because the franchise was too dysfunctional to develop a quarterback.  If you accept that reality, do you think we've changed and developed the capability of developing a franchise QB now, and that what's needed is to bring in a new prospect?

I trust Ron Rivera and Kyle Smith to find and develop their guy or at least give it their best whenever that time comes. 
 

 

[Conn]

For me, I think as fans it’s fair for us to acknowledge that Haskins was drafted too highly and for the wrong reasons,  (Snyder) which was point of failure 1. He was drafted to a coaching staff paired with a FO who mostly did not want him across the board and stunted his development, point of failure 2. He was also raw, and drafted into a bad station with little talent where even if they HAD loved him (again, they didn’t), he’d be set up for failure...point of failure 3. He was actively not developed by the previous coaching staff whose jobs were on the line, point of failure 4. These are all inter-related and commingled but for ease of communication, giving them numbers helps break it up. 

 

Now, all that said:
 

We can acknowledge ALL of these things as true and still reluctantly edge toward the realization that regardless of it all, Haskins may in fact not be a franchise-level QB talent, period, which means he is a sunk cost and needs moving on from (eventually), even if his failure is also evidence of our own organizational failures of the past (or present, for those who believe so!). Maybe with a few years in an ideal situation, sure, maybe things could be different. But I don’t think it’s unfair to say that many other young QBs currently flashing across the league may very well have fared better in this exact same situation. 
 

Selecting Haskins was an organizational failure, then we set Haskins himself up for failure and actively hurt his development, yes to all. But, he may also not be good, and may be worthy of replacing with a more talented option that this new coaching staff can and wants to work with, both those things can be true.
 

Rosen and Murray are a great comparison, @KDawg, and maybe the only one in recent memory that really fits (with the obvious caveat that the season isn’t over and we don’t know for sure that an appealing QB prospect will be staring us in the face wherever we draft—the decision was made easier for the Cardinals because they were naturally at 1, Murray was a unique talent, and Kingsbury loved him).

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This may seem off-topic, but I'm trying to get a feel for the positions of several posters in this thread so I can better navigate my conversations:

 

Let's talk Josh Rosen for a second.

 

Did the Cardinals fail to develop him? Was his failure based on the Cardinals system? Himself?

 

Why is Kyler Murray playing better for the Cardinals (or at the very least have their fans trending more positively than Rosen?)

 

I certainly have my thoughts, but I'd like to see yours before I go too much into this...

Josh Rosen definitely got screwed but he didn’t do enough to warrant the Cardinals from taking what they perceived as a better prospect. This business is hard as **** and it damn sure isn’t fair. 
 

I think there’s certainly a chance the same happens to Dwayne and Daniel Jones 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Josh Rosen definitely got screwed but he didn’t do enough to warrant the Cardinals from taking what they perceived as a better prospect. This business is hard as **** and it damn sure isn’t fair. 
 

I think there’s certainly a chance the same happens to Dwayne and Daniel Jones 

 

Neither 3 of those players IMO were killer prospects.  They were all good prospects and that's different.  I recall putting in some time on Rosen when he was up for grabs in a trade and I watched a bunch of his UCLA games.  His footwork is great, way better than Haskins and i said so on the draft thread.  But Rosen was all over the place as a decision maker. He was bold, took many chances but he was a turnover waiting to happen at least in the games I watched.

 

It was somewhat the point of Monson from PFF about why he'd move on from Haskins if he doesn't improve this year if they can find an elite talented prospect in the upcoming draft.  To him its simple as if you can find a QB who can elevate your whole roster, you don't pass on him for a player like Haskins who he believes doesn't has that kind of talent.  Same drill I'd bet he think of Daniel Jones and Josh Rosen. 

 

Kyle Murray has that kind of talent.  It's not hard to move on from Rosen when you can draft Murray.  That was part of Monson's point.

[SoCalSkins]

7 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Josh Rosen definitely got screwed but he didn’t do enough to warrant the Cardinals from taking what they perceived as a better prospect. This business is hard as **** and it damn sure isn’t fair. 
 

I think there’s certainly a chance the same happens to Dwayne and Daniel Jones 

We are way past the Josh Rosen point for Haskins or Daniel Jones. Literally dumping him a year after he is drafted in the next draft. That’s the Josh Rosen treatment.
 

I really liked him at UCLA my alma mater. I thought he would do good things in the NFL, but I didn’t think he would forever be remembered by all NFL fans going forward after 1 year!  His name has even become a verb! Every draft people will ask “are they going to Rosen him?”. Talk about a legacy!

[FootballZombie]

I’ll start by saying the NFL in general is not fair to young QBs. The best ones end up going to bad teams, with limited support and usually coaches that are on the lower tier of the spectrum. The way the QB position is perceived, they also receive an unproportionate amount of blame for failure, and an unfair amount of credit for success. The NFL is also a business. So it will do what it can to ensure its stability and growth as one. That is simply the reality of the situation.

 

Josh Rosen was both failed by his team and himself. He was surrounded with a god awful supporting cast, poor coaching and play calling. At the end of the day however, he is the one out on the field and he was the one putting poor performances on paper. Rosen’s situation became a perfect storm when he both handed his team the #1 pick and a new coach who was clearly infatuated with an upcoming prospect. The writing was on the wall.

 

Kyler Murray is both a better prospect than Rosen and he is playing in a system that is tailor made for his skillset. He has a better supporting cast as well as it is constructed to play off of him. The moment he was drafted, Murray was placed in a better situation than Rosen ever was.

 

If Rosen was drafted by the Chiefs or Ravens in lue of Jackson or Mahomes would I expect his career arc to be better? Absolutely. If Mahomes or Jackson were drafted in place of Rosen would they look as good as they do now? Absolutely not.

 

While it is unusual for a 1^st year QB, I would say if you clearly lead your team to the #1 overall pick, and there is a good QB prospect coming out, you should expect to see a QB drafted. It is what I believe we will see this year in NY, regardless of which one. If Haskins leads us to a #1 I would expect us to do the same. Double that if the marketing pans out in a way similar to Rosen v Murray.

[mhd24]

I just want to see Haskins show flashes (like the last throw to Terry).  I mean watching Burrow and Herbert has been eye-opening.  Those guys have much better pocket awareness.  Herbert's o-line was was missing Bulaga and Turner yesterday, and he still looked better than Haskins has.  At some, you need to elevate what's around you.  Kevin Sheehan (who didn't like Haskins prior to the draft), but is in his corner, thinks his ceiling is a 15th best qb.  If that's the case, you need to move on IMO, because being 15th best isn't good enough.

 

Burrow and Herbert are showing much more than Haskins has (and Burrow's line is pretty bad (although he's got much more weapons than Haskins has)).

[Llevron]

40 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This may seem off-topic, but I'm trying to get a feel for the positions of several posters in this thread so I can better navigate my conversations:

 

Let's talk Josh Rosen for a second.

 

Did the Cardinals fail to develop him? Was his failure based on the Cardinals system? Himself?

 

I think he was the loser in an unfortunate situation. I think Haskins could be the same if he keeps playing. He didn’t develop fast enough to stop them from moving to a guy with more potential, but I think it was unrealistic to expect him to anyway. 
 

He only got one season, right? I don’t think that’s enough for most guys. Especially ones that have to make plays with their arms and have limited mobility to help them. Guys like him need to master a system to be able to dominate in it. One season is def not enough time for that. 

 

 

 

Quote

Why is Kyler Murray playing better for the Cardinals (or at the very least have their fans trending more positively than Rosen?)

 

better player running a system tailor made for him. Maybe Kyler is more limited as a passer, I don’t know and I have not heard that. But even if he was, overall the legs add something that is  so helpful when you are young and learning that it’s not even a fair battle. Imo. His legs keep him a step ahead of the defense while he is learning. If he can avoid injury, that’s a hell of a benefit. 

 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

35 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I trust Ron Rivera and Kyle Smith to find and develop their guy or at least give it their best whenever that time comes. 

 

To me, that is the optimistic take.  Botching the development of Haskins is not an endorsement of their ability to develop a young player at the position.

 

TBH, I think Rivera is checked out on the season.  I sympathize with the probable reason for why, but if his health is preventing him from the commitment the job demands, then this is a pretty big problem for the team.  He is either going to have to step away during his treatment or we're going to have to accept the general lack of competitiveness of the team in the meantime and hope his condition improves as soon as possible.

[Warhead36]

15 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

I just want to see Haskins show flashes (like the last throw to Terry).  I mean watching Burrow and Herbert has been eye-opening.  Those guys have much better pocket awareness.  Herbert's o-line was was missing Bulaga and Turner yesterday, and he still looked better than Haskins has.  At some, you need to elevate what's around you.  Kevin Sheehan (who didn't like Haskins prior to the draft), but is in his corner, thinks his ceiling is a 15th best qb.  If that's the case, you need to move on IMO, because being 15th best isn't good enough.

 

Burrow and Herbert are showing much more than Haskins has (and Burrow's line is pretty bad (although he's got much more weapons than Haskins has)).

Yeah that's the problem I have too. I don't see Haskins as ever being better than say a Kirk Cousins tier QB(12-15 ish). Is that really worth the time investment? Probably not.

 

But again, we aren't trying to win this year anyway. Might as well keep trotting him out there.

[GOATFrerotte]

One of the reasons I'm fine with the qb carousel, Haskins was drafted by the dysfunctional old regime. We're in a brand new start. Worst in the league qb play gets you benched. Yesterday was slightly good enough to earn another start, although I believe Ron saying "we are in a unique situation" was in reference to being in the hunt for the NFC east at 1-3, but I could be wrong. He could mean something else. And that is what is going to drive his decision making. Even though many fans want to lose for draft picks, Ron doesn't seem that way, and I hope he's not that way. If he has a chance to win the NFC east in his first year as head coach he's going to go for it. I'm willing to bet it's now win or bench time for Haskins. If he loses to the Rams, even if he plays like he did yesterday, and the teams goes to 1-4, he'll make the change. You can see in Ron's comments that his patience is coming to an end. Definitely not comments of someone who is committed to Haskins. 

[Playaction2Sanders]

I still say give him time.. I remember when Rivers and Big Ben and Eli were drafted. Eli going to the worse team out of the bunch and he struggled. Meanwhile Pittsburgh was a year removed from being a divisional round team that returned most of that roster during Roethlisberger's rookie and all he was asked to do was game manage and they went 15-1 thats how good his team was around him.. With Rivers, when he took over, almost the same situation. In '04 they went 12-4. Two years later when he takes over its almost the same roster. He's not asked to throw for 4,800 yards and 30 TD's and they go 14-2.. WIth Eli, the Giants still stunk around him and it took a couple years until they were consistently good.

 

I also look at cats like Culpepper who came out guns a blazing his rookie year and never duplicated it afterwards. Aaron Brooks who showed promise but never fulfilled. Then you think of guys like Chris Chandler, Vinny Testeverde, Rich Gannon all three played on crappy teams early in their careers yet stayed around, Gannon ends up on the Raiders, Vinny with the '98 Jets and Chandler with Falcons, surrounded by talent and they showed you can still have a career further down the road.. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

That close to the goal line in a score or lose possession down its tough to really clear out any spots. They had 8 defenders back.

 

You've got to create the throwing window before the goal line in that situation IMO.  It needs to be a quick throw to McLaurin that gives him a chance to do something after the catch.  We don't have the jump ball specialists to Hail Mary it.  You know the shallow zones are going to drop deep because of the situation, the window is going to be between that 10 and 5 yard line,  but the break needs to be vertical so the receiver can be driving up field, not to the sidelines like that china route.  And you want some kind of mesh concept or at least better spacing to give McLaurin room to make something happen.  A 2x2 or 2x3 spread would have been better.

 

Either that or you've got to run a fade into the back corner from somewhere along the numbers and hope your QB and WR is better than their coverage but that's really low percentage too given our personnel and opponent.

 

My other call would be four verts with Gibson running a route right up that middle seam.  The blitz Baltimore showed was A gap but still a four man look.  The back should not have been in protection and we should have gotten our tackle breaker on the field for the situation.

[GOATFrerotte]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You've got to create the throwing window before the goal line in that situation IMO.  It needs to be a quick throw to McLaurin that gives him a chance to do something after the catch.  We don't have the jump ball specialists to Hail Mary it.  You know the shallow zones are going to drop deep because of the situation, the window is going to be between that 10 and 5 yard line,  but the break needs to be vertical so the receiver can be driving up field, not to the sidelines like that china route.  And you want some kind of mesh concept or at least better spacing to give McLaurin room to make something happen.  A 2x2 or 2x3 spread would have been better.

 

Either that or you've got to run a fade into the back corner from somewhere along the numbers and hope your QB and WR is better than their coverage but that's really low percentage too given our personnel and opponent.

 

My other call would be four verts with Gibson running a route right up that middle seam.  The blitz Baltimore showed was A gap but still a four man look.  The back should not have been in protection and we should have gotten our tackle breaker on the field for the situation.

 

They have a shallow crosser and a deep crosser also an out to the pylon. The point of the play is for the crossers to find a soft spot in the zone or throw to the pylon. That requires time to develop, of which Haskins didn't allow any. The play design was fine, the execution was terrible. There's one thing I can guarantee, the play was not designed to throw that pass that quickly. 

[SoCalSkins]

27 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

One of the reasons I'm fine with the qb carousel, Haskins was drafted by the dysfunctional old regime. We're in a brand new start. Worst in the league qb play gets you benched. Yesterday was slightly good enough to earn another start, although I believe Ron saying "we are in a unique situation" was in reference to being in the hunt for the NFC east at 1-3, but I could be wrong. He could mean something else. And that is what is going to drive his decision making. Even though many fans want to lose for draft picks, Ron doesn't seem that way, and I hope he's not that way. If he has a chance to win the NFC east in his first year as head coach he's going to go for it. I'm willing to bet it's now win or bench time for Haskins. If he loses to the Rams, even if he plays like he did yesterday, and the teams goes to 1-4, he'll make the change. You can see in Ron's comments that his patience is coming to an end. Definitely not comments of someone who is committed to Haskins. 

Haskins’ agent putting out the statement on Twitter questioning Ron Rivera’s decision making and throwing his teammates under the bus probably sealed it. If Haskins did not feel the same, the tweet would have been deleted by now. It’s still up. It’s Haskins passive aggressive way of making a statement.
 

Same with his Instagram post he deleted the day after the Browns game. He doesn’t carry himself as a professional. Has no business being a starting QB and has no business being a team captain. He’s better off trying to be a social media influencer than an NFL QB at this point.

[Conn]

Haskins’ agent posted a negative tweet about the team? I must have missed those pages of this thread post-game, it was moving fast 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

They have a shallow crosser and a deep crosser also an out to the pylon. The point of the play is for the crossers to find a soft spot in the zone or throw to the pylon. That requires time to develop, of which Haskins didn't allow any. The play design was fine, the execution was terrible. There's one thing I can guarantee, the play was not designed to throw that pass that quickly. 

 

It literally was.  I'll repeat this again I guess: the designed timing of the throw is for the ball to come out when the QB completes the drop.  Now that we've got the full view of the field and it's super slowed down, I can see what Terry and the other two vert options were doing.  Guarantee that Terry running that corner route was the first option as the "high read" and Wright was the second option as the "low read."  That kind of high-low structure to the design is typical in the china concept.  What is less typical and doesn't make sense is lining the other receiver up in between them and having him jam up the spacing on the corner route by making the decision of that shallow flat zone defender to carry the receivers up field so easy to make.

 

Terry made his break at the four yard line and that coincided with the end of the drop.  That's the window for the throw to Terry.  But it never opened because the flat defender never bit on Wright.

 

BTW, you all are talking about wanting to give the WR a chance to make a play on the ball and how the throw must go to the sticks, if Wright stems inside and pushes upfield before running a corner route instead of a china then he's got a far better chance of making something happen in that situation than forcing a throw into an eight man coverage would.

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Haskins’ agent posted a negative tweet about the team? I must have missed those pages of this thread post-game, it was moving fast