FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

21 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Just listened to their bit on Jones and Minshew.  The vibe I got was Minshew can become a solid all around QB, but that's about it.  Jones...they don't think much of.  They didn't say 'Bust', but if I was a Giants fan, that would not be a happy-fun-time listening experience.

 

Kollmann does give a thorough breakdown on Jones here:

 

 

 

And Lock here:

 

 

[RWJ]

Watch out for Allen.  Whoever picks up Turner's system the best will be the starter, I'm guessing.  

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I agree Murray's WR corps is better, but Lock's is a close second.  Sutton is a legitimate top 12 WR, Noah Fant is a top 10 TE, and Jeudy and Hamler are both electric weapons who should do well as rookies.  

 

I would take Denver's RB corps over the Cardinals, even though I think Drake may be the best RB from both teams.  Denver's is super deep and filled with talent.

 

I think the biggest separator is the coaching.  The level of head coaching experience (and coaching in general) on that Denver staff easily dwarfs anything Arizona has, and I think Lock is going to be a huge beneficiary of the cumulative football knowledge surrounding him.  

 

Also, Denver's defense was much better than Arizona's last year and I expect it to be even better this year with a healthy Chubb, the addition of Jurrell Casey, and a full season from Alexander Johnson.

We'll just agree to disagree. I don't think Fant is there yet. He may get there but he's got a way to go. Sutton is a talent, no doubt, but Jeudy and Ham are rookies so who knows what to expect for this year. Arizona has veterans all over. Remember, it was a list based on 2020 expectations. Coaching i'll agree with you. In terms of Defense though the additions of Rashard Lawrence and Issiah Simmons makes that front 7 vastly better. With Simmons, Chandler Jones, Hicks and Kennard, I think that LB corp is the best in the NFL.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Kollmann does give a thorough breakdown on Jones here:

 

And Lock here:

 

I'll have to watch those.  Interested to see if those videos have a different vibe from his recent expectations for Year 2 QB's video.  Cause saying Jones is flat out incapable of feeling a pass rush is not good, then in the later bit he thought both Jones/Minshew struggled reading zone defenses, lack of a quality deep ball, etc...

[Llevron]

9 hours ago, RWJ said:

Watch out for Allen.  Whoever picks up Turner's system the best will be the starter, I'm guessing.  

Ron already said that they are pretty much on equal footing as far as knowledge of the system goes at this point if I remember correctly. 

[KDawg]

Honestly this is a perfect scenario for Haskins. If he wins the job, truly based on merit, from the Alex Smith storyline and the Kyle Allen systemic advantage it’s all the proof in the world that all of the stuff coming out about his work ethic this offseason has paid off.

 

Im excited about it. I think I believe the fluff and he’s going to have a good year. 

[Koolblue13]

40 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Honestly this is a perfect scenario for Haskins. If he wins the job, truly based on merit, from the Alex Smith storyline and the Kyle Allen systemic advantage it’s all the proof in the world that all of the stuff coming out about his work ethic this offseason has paid off.

 

Im excited about it. I think I believe the fluff and he’s going to have a good year. 

It looks like all he did was work out and study all off season, which is super exciting.

 

I know it's expected, but AP saying that you could see a switch flip in him at the end of last season is great lead up to his offseason hustle too.

 

Really feels like every player on the team has bought in and is working together in the same direction for the first time since Gibbs II honestly. I think Guice was the last piece to go.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Kollmann does give a thorough breakdown on Jones here:

 

 

I watched most of the Jones one.  I am almost exactly where Kollemann is.  Kollerman didn't like Jones before the draft.  Neither did I. He played in the NFL according to him better than he expected.  Same with me.  His answer about whether he's a good QB is "maybe".  Same with me. 

 

Interesting that his take is Daniel Jones is brave in the pocket because his theory is he's oblivious to seeing the pressure thus he doesn't get scared.

 

I watched every Jones game but one.  And watched from what I recall at least 5 college games.  I've turned from being one of his bigger critics on the draft thread -- compared him to Case Keenum to now where I gather I am one of his biggest defenders here, relatively speaking.  I don't think the dude will be a bust.  I've readjusted my take of him.  I do think he is better than Keenum.  I am not to the extreme of Kiper who thinks he's on the verge of being a stud or in the crowd that he's likely a bust.  I am somewhere in between the two thoughts.

 

11 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

And Lock here:

 

I didn't watch all the Lock stuff.  But interesting that he thought he got conservative at the end after starting ballsy.  I was somewhat high on Lock before the draft.  Not as high on him as @volsmet.   My gut is he emerges as a really good QB this year.  I like Haskins' off season and at the moment I am optimistic about him.  And I am not really that down on Jones anymore.  But I'd put Lock's ceiling as higher than both dudes.   

 

I had before the draft some concerns about all three.  But at the moment, I'd put money that all three are successes to some degree in the NFL.  I don't know if I'd put money though on one versus the other but if I had to it would be:  1. Lock   2.  Haskins.  3.  Jones.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But I'd put Lock's ceiling as higher than both dudes.   

 

Not me.  Lock is more talented than Jones, but I think Haskins is a good deal more talented than Lock.  Haskins is much closer to Murray's level than he is to Lock.

 

Lock's NFL comp and best case scenario for me was Jared Goff.  He's a talented clean pocket thrower and solid athlete with a tall, sturdy build.  He doesn't look good when things aren't going as planned and he's a little goofy footed as a runner.  He'll play with fear in the face of pressure and sometimes it looks like his brain just shuts down and the turnovers will be horrific.  But with an elite cast, he can get your offense humming and make plays.

 

And between Jeudy and Sutton and Fant and Gordon and Lindsey, plus a pretty good offensive line, his cast is elite.  Denver has done all of the right things since they got lucky and had him fall to him in the second.  But, as happened with Goff in L.A., if his supporting cast deteriorates, his play will fall off a cliff.

 

Haskins is better and better able to cope with weak surrounding talent, which is good, because his supporting cast here sucks.  I think we need to be honest with ourselves about that  It's Adrian Peterson and a second year WR and an OL with one above average player.  Haskins is just better at reading coverage and making decisions than Lock.  He has superior instincts and copes with having to go off schedule much better.  You see it in his mindset.  Something goes wrong, he's still in a confident attacking mentality and searching for openings for as long as he can rather than let me just get the ball out to survive this snap.  But it's not carelessness, he performs all of the little details the good QBs do to protect the ball while still preserving a playmaking mentality.  Lock is much more cavalier with the ball and some of his turnovers and poor decisions are really tough to watch--the result of obvious panic.

 

I defended Jones in the draft thread.  He got a lot of unjustified hate then, but it feels like the narrative has rubber banded back the other way because his expectations were so unjustifiably low.  He's Eli or Alex Smith.  He's going to be an above average starter that you can win with if your team is really good, but he's nothing special.  Haskins and Lock are better than him.  But NY went about supporting Jones the right way.  They built him quite the offensive line and Saquon is a generational talent who is capable of carrying a massive load for the offense.  Same formula the Cowboys used to turn Dak Prescott into a Probowler.

[Koolblue13]

If Love and Sims and just one of those TEs can step up, Haskins can put up some numbers.

 

I think Turners creative offense will buy us some time, before defenses can start to identify patterns and plays. Hopefully by that time,Haskins will be much more comfortable running this offense and a few different players.

 

The defense should take a lot of heat off of him.

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I'll have to watch those.  Interested to see if those videos have a different vibe from his recent expectations for Year 2 QB's video.  Cause saying Jones is flat out incapable of feeling a pass rush is not good, then in the later bit he thought both Jones/Minshew struggled reading zone defenses, lack of a quality deep ball, etc...

 

Yeah in that video he brings up many of the same issues with Jones:

 

- Doesn't feel the rush...like, at all. Can be a good thing on occasion because it makes him "fearless" but also often results in him taking awful sacks by stepping into pressure, etc. 

- Gets tripped up easily by zone defenses, especially when they change their look post-snap.

- Has a tendency to make absolutely awful decisions at times. Some of this can be chalked up to being a rookie, but many were mind-numbing.

- Has a problem with bad ball placement, especially on deeper throws. Even if it is technically "catchable" it's often in the wrong place (ie: leading the WR into a DB inside towards the hashes instead of towards the sideline to the outside shoulder and away from the DB.

- Has the exact same ball security issues he had in college, which leads to lots of strip sacks and fumbles. Dude had 18 fumbles in 13 games.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I defended Jones in the draft thread.  He got a lot of unjustified hate then, but it feels like the narrative has rubber banded back the other way because his expectations were so unjustifiably low.  He's Eli or Alex Smith.  He's going to be an above average starter that you can win with if your team is really good, but he's nothing special.  Haskins and Lock are better than him.  But NY went about supporting Jones the right way.  They built him quite the offensive line and Saquon is a generational talent who is capable of carrying a massive load for the offense.  Same formula the Cowboys used to turn Dak Prescott into a Probowler.

 

I really don't see Jones as an Alex Smith at all because Jones takes way more risks, many of them stupid. I can see some Eli in him though. In the video I was referencing above that guy compared him to Jameis Winston...good athleticism, tough, moderate arm, will make some outstanding plays, but just as many completely head-scratching ones. And as soon as you think he's turned the corner you see the same tendencies pop up.

 

I wasn't high at all on Jones coming out of Duke. I was sort of surprised but sort of not by his rookie year. On one hand I was a bit surprised that he played as well as he did, but on the other hand I wasn't really surprised by the struggles he had, as they were many of the same issues he had in college. Also wasn't surprised that he was better out of the gate than Haskins since he had 3 years of starting experience in college along with tutelage from a very good NFL QB coach.

[bakedtater1]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

It looks like all he did was work out and study all off season, which is super exciting.

 

I know it's expected, but AP saying that you could see a switch flip in him at the end of last season is great lead up to his offseason hustle too.

 

Really feels like every player on the team has bought in and is working together in the same direction for the first time since Gibbs II honestly. I think Guice was the last piece to go.

Good stuff here, you as well @KDawg

[Fresh8686]

It was interesting to hear Dwayne in this interview mention that they are having him do RPO work.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

There's a ton of movement and misdirection in Turners offense. RPO stuff wouldn't surprise me. I expect our offense to be really similar to the Ravens honestly. 

[OVCChairman]

56 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There's a ton of movement and misdirection in Turners offense. RPO stuff wouldn't surprise me. I expect our offense to be really similar to the Ravens honestly. 

 

 

I hope not.  Lamar Jackson carried the ball 176 times in 15 games last year.  

 

I'd rather see us closer to KC, or even Philly back in 17 where Wentz carried the ball 60+ times (still more than i would like) in 13 games.  

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I hope not.  Lamar Jackson carried the ball 176 times in 15 games last year.  

 

I'd rather see us closer to KC, or even Philly back in 17 where Wentz carried the ball 60+ times (still more than i would like) in 13 games.  

I can see the pre snap action being similar to that of the Ravens and teams you mentioned. I think the QB carries will be close to what Wentz and Mahomes have done. Reid just likes it to be a threat not a fixture in an offense. 

[Mr. Sinister]

Yeah, a running QB is a dead man walking with a doomsday pocket watch. No thanks.

 

It's perfect tor misdirection/crucial shirt yardage tho

[KDawg]

Talent wise, Haskins is head and shoulders above the others aside from Kyler, so I’m with Steve there. The thing for me, based on last season, is the question of the space between his ears. Not intelligence wise... he’s smart. More like attitude and effort wise.

 

And that question is being answered now. He seems to have flipped a switch. I feel optimistic that he winds up better than Jones at the moment. Though I think Lock has a pretty high ceiling. I still feel that Kyler is overall the best QB in last years draft, though Haskins’ arm talent is something special.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Talent wise, Haskins is head and shoulders above the others aside from Kyler, so I’m with Steve there. The thing for me, based on last season, is the question of the space between his ears. Not intelligence wise... he’s smart. More like attitude and effort wise.

 

And that question is being answered now. He seems to have flipped a switch. I feel optimistic that he winds up better than Jones at the moment. Though I think Lock has a pretty high ceiling. I still feel that Kyler is overall the best QB in last years draft, though Haskins’ arm talent is something special.

 

 

See i'll go a step further and say I'm a little nervous that the hill he has to climb here is a very big one in a short window... and I worry he, most QBs for that matter, is not capable of climbing it as quickly as he needs to in order to be a long term QB here.   I'm rooting for the guy big time.... i hope it all comes together. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Not me.  Lock is more talented than Jones, but I think Haskins is a good deal more talented than Lock.  Haskins is much closer to Murray's level than he is to Lock.

 

 

To each their own on that.  I think Lock is more talented.  I think he has a stronger arm (and i am not alone on that point).  He's more mobile.  And can throw better off platform.  But I like Haskins' arm, too.  I'd give it to Lock though by half a peg.  Also I expect Haskins' mobility to be improved.   So I guess among the regulars on the draft thread, its me and @volsmet on this point as for Lock > Haskins as to talent versus you and @kdwag  😀  At the moment I am high on both Lock and Haskins and more so now then before the draft. 

 

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 Lock is much more cavalier with the ball and some of his turnovers and poor decisions are really tough to watch--the result of obvious panic.

 

I agree with this part.  Lock makes some bad decisions.  Though he didn't have a hot supporting cast in college.  I wasn't 100% sold on Lock, Haskins or Jones.  But I ranked them in that order and still do.

 

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I defended Jones in the draft thread.  He got a lot of unjustified hate then, but it feels like the narrative has rubber banded back the other way because his expectations were so unjustifiably low. 

 

I don't think its rubber banded on this thread specifically.   But certainly it has nationally.  There isn't much love for Jones on this thread.   I am sort of the reformed Jones hater. 😀  I don't love him now but I think he's better than what I thought of him before the draft.   And based on reading posts on this thread, in contrast, I am actually almost a Jones homer.  I think the dude is capable of being an above average QB.  I don't think many on this thread agree with me on that.

[Vanguard]

@Fresh8686

 

Good post.  He explains a lot.  Including his social media approach.  But it will probably go unnoticed.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And based on reading posts on this thread, in contrast, I am actually almost a Jones homer.  I think the dude is capable of being an above average QB.  I don't think many on this thread agree with me on that.

 

With the right stuff around him sure.  He's a mostly touch thrower, he doesn't have the juice otherwise.  Touch throwers can be great in the NFL, it's just limiting.

 

Then based on his college tape and his rookie tape, he needs a big OL upgrade, which the Giants have started, but don't have yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

With the right stuff around him sure.  He's a mostly touch thrower, he doesn't have the juice otherwise.  Touch throwers can be great in the NFL, it's just limiting.

 

Then based on his college tape and his rookie tape, he needs a big OL upgrade, which the Giants have started, but don't have yet.

 

I've debated that if I recall maybe even with you on this thread but I'd take the current Giants O line over ours any day of the week.    Their O line IMO after this off season is above average.  It wasn't the case last year.