FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

I thought in the beginning of the season he looked significantly behind Case Keenum in this regard. But, he was a rookie. It was remarkable how much he'd improved by the end of the year. 

 

To be fair, that improvement wasn't all on Dwayne either.  I think a big part of that is just the organizational turmoil calmed down after Gruden got fired and Callahan and O'Connell rigged up a workable offense on the fly.  They kind of figured out a weekly approach that stabilized player performance and gave us at least some kind of offensive identity, mediocre as it was.

 

It is much easier to see in hindsight what an awful situation we had on our hands going into last season.  There was waaaaay too much front office level bull**** happening.  Gruden really crapped the bed on the 2019 season, and that leadership void led to an on-field disaster.  It's definitely not good to draft a young first round pick QB into that kind of bombed out organizational structure and leave him to fend for himself.  I still can't get over the rumor that we were weeks into the season and Dwayne still wasn't even learning or running our plays.  That is a breathtakingly incompetent approach to developing a young QB if true.   It's ghastly.

 

We can see the night and day difference in where he was at coming off the bench at the beginning of the year vs where he was at when he was operating the offense with much more confidence and support at the end of the year.  I think folks have been a little too quick to assume that was pretty much all due to him getting better, more focused, more disciplined, whatever.  But I think instead that it's a really clear demonstration of how it makes a massive a difference having a functional football operation surrounding your young player.  It's everything.  I've been skeptical about some of our roster transactions this offseason, but I'm settling into a take where it seems like the best thing we did this offseason was get a coach who is much more disciplined, nurturing, cooperative, and communicative.  And the main thing is we hired a coach who is empowered to be a strong leader, and it looks like he is willing and able to provide that leadership.  That is going to make a huge of difference for Dwayne's development and performance.

[ExoDus84]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

Wow. I wonder who on our staff had him graded as a 3rd rounder. Most seemed to have him graded as a 1st or 2nd rounder.

 

Well, all you have to do is look at Dwayne's performance last season to see why some might not have ranked him highly. By any metric, he was one of the worst graded QB's in the league in 2019. You can chalk this up to him being extremely raw, and needing time to develop, sure. But you can see why some scouts might not have wanted to spend a 1st on him.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

Well, all you have to do is look at Dwayne's performance last season to see why some might not have ranked him highly. By any metric, he was one of the worst graded QB's in the league in 2019. You can chalk this up to him being extremely raw, and needing time to develop, sure. But you can see why some scouts might not have wanted to spend a 1st on him.

 

I can see people not wanting to spend a 1st on him. I was actually not that high on him and didn't want really us to take him at 15, but was mostly resigned to it by draft day with all the rumors swirling around.

 

That being said, I can't remember anyone reporting less than a 2nd round grade on him. Even scouts and football analysts who knew he was raw and inexperienced and thus maybe not worth a 1st round pick couldn't deny his pure talent and production in 2018 at OSU. 

 

So it wasn't so much that not everyone had a 1st round grade on him, but that someone had a 3rd round grade. That sort of surprised me.

[Going Commando]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

Wow. I wonder who on our staff had him graded as a 3rd rounder. Most seemed to have him graded as a 1st or 2nd rounder. 

 

Hopefully someone who is either gone or doesn't have any decision-making power over personnel because that kind of grade can only be the result of terrible evaluation.

 

Dwayne was not a hard one to see coming.  Literally every mock draft dummy and layman in the world could tell he was a first rounder.  He wasn't a hidden gem or savvy reach.  He was a projected top ten pick blueblood college star Heisman trophy finalist who fell because Dave Gettleman wanted his lily white Eli clone and Jacksonville and Miami thought Nick Foles and Josh Rosen were the answers.

 

I believe the reason we're hearing about people inside this organization not wanting him and putting stupidly low grades on him was because they knew drafting a QB in the first round would trigger regime change.  They'd have lowballed any prospect to throw cold water on the idea of drafting a first round QB and try and save their jobs.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

Wow. I wonder who on our staff had him graded as a 3rd rounder. Most seemed to have him graded as a 1st or 2nd rounder. 

 

As far as Dan and that story, it's sorta hard for me to see it as positive that he was directly interfering and overruling football people (again). Yeah, if he ends up being right then he did a good job in getting Haskins, but that's sort of circular logic and revisionist history. 

 

Sure.   Don't get me wrong.  I'd rather Dan didn't interfere to say the least.  He's the worst owner in the league IMO.  

 

But for a dude who got so much wrong when he did interfere in the past considering all the stories over the years  -- the blink squirrel had to find an acorn eventually.

 

And I agree with the posts that Haskins still is an open question.  But I think this off season the arrow is trending up.   Will see. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I can see people not wanting to spend a 1st on him. I was actually not that high on him and didn't want really us to take him at 15, but was mostly resigned to it by draft day with all the rumors swirling around.

 

That being said, I can't remember anyone reporting less than a 2nd round grade on him. Even scouts and football analysts who knew he was raw and inexperienced and thus maybe not worth a 1st round pick couldn't deny his pure talent and production in 2018 at OSU. 

 

So it wasn't so much that not everyone had a 1st round grade on him, but that someone had a 3rd round grade. That sort of surprised me.

 

There is some noise that it wasn't just the Redskins who graded him below the first round.  Draft geeks typically have the toppish big QB names ranked as first rounders.  I don't think it means anything considering the Brady Quinn bust types who were hailed by the draft geeks are just as prevalent if not more than the successes.  Heck in that same draft, most draft geeks had Drew Lock going in the top half of the first round, plenty had him in the top 10, yet he fell to the 2nd.

 

Personally, I don't think it matters in hindsight where the draft geeks or for that matter personnel guys ranked a specific QB considering they all get it wrong so many times.  

 

My take on Haskins as the draft got closer was I didn't see him as a slam dunk top half of the first round QB.   Yet, I am optimistic now that he is going to end up good.  I liked Drew Lock more from that draft and still do over Haskins.   I like Haskins over Jones but am not as down on Jones now as I was before that draft. 

 

IMO how the draft geeks and personnel guys have seen the QBs at the time, I don't think matters once the movie starts.    Heck Joe Gibbs has one of the smartest offensive minds of all time, yet he was smitten by Jason Campbell.   Bobby Beathard fell for Ryan Leaf.    Many top GMs thought Alex Smith > Aaron Rodgers.   Plenty of draft geeks preferred Trubisky over Mahomes.   We can go on and on.

 

Banner worked in the Eagles FO.  I also recall an article that draft geeks had a higher opinion of Haskins than scouts that quoted some anonymously.   I posted quotes from scouts from McGinn's report where he quoted anonymously different scouts.  Some were high on Haskins.  Some weren't.  

 

Some i notice think all of that condemns Haskins.  To me that's not the case.  I don't think it matters at all.   It would be one thing if either media mock draft types routinely nail their Qb picks (albeit they don't) or personnel people (they don't either) mostly get it right.  The Qb position has been a bit of a crap shoot where I don't think any of the draft geeks or personnel people have found the secret sauce.

 

I don't endorse the negativity of that twitter post below.  But I do believe that the Redskins weren't the only team with scouts who didn't have a first round grade on the dude.  But to me it wouldn't matter if their scouts viewed him in advance as a sure fire stud or a bust.   So many Qbs emerge or fail in spite of their draft status. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

At this stage we don’t need to stress about Haskins. The past is just that, the past. Draft status somewhat irrelevant now.

 

New Era.

 

Haskins will either ball or he’ll suck. The former, great we are set. The latter, Kyle Allen fills the void. Rivera then goes an gets the QB he really needs.

 

Ah, 2020 is a train wreck. May as well roll with it. Haskins either proves he has it or he doesn’t. No great pressure in the future. Just another question mark to resolve. 

 

 

And Morgan Moses..sorry but can we get a new RT. Not a fan to be honest.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

At this stage we don’t need to stress about Haskins. The past is just that, the past. Draft status somewhat irrelevant now.

 

New Era.

 

Haskins will either ball or he’ll suck. The former, great we are set. The latter, Kyle Allen fills the void. Rivera then goes an gets the QB he really needs.

 

Ah, 2020 is a train wreck. May as well roll with it. Haskins either proves he has it or he doesn’t. No great pressure in the future. Just another question mark to resolve. 

 

 

And Morgan Moses..sorry but can we get a new RT. Not a fan to be honest.

 

Agree.  Draft geeks loved him or didn't or every FO loved him or didn't -- doesn't matter.  Only reason why I bothered to show that there were mixed opinions is Kyle Smith was unlikely on an island on it if he didn't grade him as a first rounder.

 

And personally I am not killing any GM for getting it wrong on a QB.  Which remains to be seen here.   Just about all of them have gotten it wrong at QB.   It's OK. 😀

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Can't compare Goff to Haskins. Goff got Sean McVay as his coach and had guys like Gurley, Kupp, Woods etc. around him. Haskins has McLaurin and a past his prime(though still somewhat effective)Peterson. That's basically it.

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

What regurgitated this discussion was @Voice_of_Reason made the point on this thread that looks like Dan finally got one right.

I just want to point out my exact quote was IF dan got the QB and the coach right, he would be insufferable.  But only to his wife because he doesn’t talk to anybody else.  And I’m willing for Tonya to take that bullet.  

 

but yeah, he might have stumbled into something good by accident.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Banner's an idiot.

 

It's not how many teams passed on Haskins, it's how many QBs were picked before Haskins. Not every team was so in need of a QB that they'd pick one in the 1st round. Not to mention that there is decades of evidence that the "look how many teams passed on (fill in the blank)" argument is ridiculously flawed. Might as well say the same thing about Rodgers and Brees. As for the 3rd round grades, Mclaurin and Russell Wilson say hello. And before anyone says anything, you'd have to be suffering from a blow to the head to think those are "just two players"...the NFL has been littered with players projected as 3rd rounders (or lower) that had lengthy, productive, even HOF-worthy careers.

 

The reality was that a lot of analysts had Haskins needing to sit for a year to properly develop, but that his upside and ceiling were off the charts so he would be worth taking a shot at with a 1st or 2nd round pick. hopefully what we saw last year were signs of that being the case. The reality also is that, at the time of the draft, the Skins were most definitely NOT the right organization to develop a player like Haskins...which was one reason I was more than fine with us passing on him--didn't think we had the right coaching staff in place to do so, but now realize it went well beyond Gruden. So absolving the Redskins as an organization from their role in how prepared and ready Haskins was (or was not) seems to only be in service of continuing the "Haskins is a bust, we all saw it last year, fans just want to point fingers at anyone else besides him" viewpoint.

 

 

19 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just want to point out my exact quote was IF dan got the QB and the coach right, he would be insufferable.  But only to his wife because he doesn’t talk to anybody else.  And I’m willing for Tonya to take that bullet.  

 

but yeah, he might have stumbled into something good by accident.

 

 

If this works out, I'll start a Go Fund Me account for Tanya, just so that she can go buy some booze without Dan knowing lol...

[Cooleyfan1993]

Has haskins had a media session since camp started yet? 

[Koolblue13]

Panthers were a team in obvious need of a QB for the future that year and I doubt they'd have come here if they thought Haskins wasn't the future for them. I doubt he got out of the first if we didn't take him. Might have done a Roger's like slide to late, but he was not hitting round 2 and its ridiculous to pretend otherwise. 

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

It's not how many teams passed on Haskins, it's how many QBs were picked before Haskins. Not every team was so in need of a QB that they'd pick one in the 1st round. Not to mention that there is decades of evidence that the "look how many teams passed on (fill in the blank)" argument is ridiculously flawed. Might as well say the same thing about Rodgers and Brees. As for the 3rd round grades, Mclaurin and Russell Wilson say hello. And before anyone says anything, you'd have to be suffering from a blow to the head to think those are "just two players"...the NFL has been littered with players projected as 3rd rounders (or lower) that had lengthy, productive, even HOF-worthy careers.

 

 

Agree.  But I noticed some here flipped the argument the other way where they rise the importance of what draft geeks thought of said QB.  If so many have him as a top 10 doesn't that say something, etc?  To each their own, for me it doesn't mean squat.  Mel Kiper saying Jimmy Clausen is so can't miss that he will quit his job if he's wrong -- not only was he wrong, Clausen fell to the 2nd round.  They all get it wrong so much and they get it wrong both ways -- the ones they tout and the ones they slam. 

 

For me draft geeks or scouts falling hard for a QB before the draft or not falling for them -- to me is yawn in retrospect either way.  

 

Once the QB is in the league and making their mark, I don't see the relevance of how they were seen before the draft.

 

The whole debate actually was spurred by me agreeing with a post that Dan might have gotten it right about Haskins.  And for a dude who has gotten so much wrong, he might have been due.  Granted jury is still out.  But I am liking the off season for Haskins so am feeling optimistic. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  But I noticed some here flipped the argument the other way where they rise the importance of what draft geeks thought of said QB.  If so many have him as a top 10 doesn't that say something, etc?  To each their own, for me it doesn't mean squat.  Mel Kiper saying Jimmy Clausen is so can't miss that he will quit his job if he's wrong -- not only was he wrong, Clausen fell to the 2nd round.  They all get it wrong so much and they get it wrong both ways -- the ones they tout and the ones they slam. 

 

For me draft geeks or scouts falling hard for a QB before the draft or not falling for them -- to me is yawn in retrospect either way.  

 

Once the QB is in the league and making their mark, I don't see the relevance of how they were seen before the draft.

 

The whole debate actually was spurred by me agreeing with a post that Dan might have gotten it right about Haskins.  And for a dude who has gotten so much wrong, he might have been due.  Granted jury is still out.  But I am liking the off season for Haskins so am feeling optimistic. 

 

To be honest I had not read hardly any posts before i saw Banner's tweet lol...was just quickly skimming the last page. So I didn't read it in context to the thread or any previous discussions. It was just too idiotic in my eyes to ignore, though lol...

[Malapropismic Depository]

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 8/8/2020 at 1:33 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Didn't listen to the parts about the other QB's.  Just Haskins and then the rankings of supporting cast.

 

Kollmann says

Arizona & Denver > Washington > New York > Jacksonville

 

Other guy says

Denver > Arizona > Washington > New York & Jacksonville

 

They're saying some stuff about the QB's that I should probably go back and listen.  But they seem to like Minshew over Jones which is interesting.

[HTTRDynasty]

6 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Didn't listen to the parts about the other QB's.  Just Haskins and then the rankings of supporting cast.

 

Kollmann says

Arizona & Denver > Washington > New York > Jacksonville

 

Other guy says

Denver > Arizona > Washington > New York & Jacksonville

 

 

They weren't just rankings of supporting cast... they were full picture rankings - QB and supporting cast (including coaching).  I think they'd have both had NY ahead of Washington if it was a ranking of supporting cast only, but they both like Haskins much better than they do Jones.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

26 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

They weren't just rankings of supporting cast... they were full picture rankings - QB and supporting cast (including coaching).  I think they'd have both had NY ahead of Washington if it was a ranking of supporting cast only, but they both like Haskins much better than they do Jones.

 

Yeah I phrased that wrong.

 

They mentioned the arrow is pointing up for Haskins the most, but I wasn't clear if that means overall potential, or biggest expected growth in season 2, or just he had the worst situation as a rookie and now is finally on more equal footing with everyone else.

[HTTRDynasty]

4 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Yeah I phrased that wrong.

 

They mentioned the arrow is pointing up for Haskins the most, but I wasn't clear if that means overall potential, or biggest expected growth in season 2, or just he had the worst situation as a rookie and now is finally on more equal footing with everyone else.

 

I think it's a bit of all three.  Based on their comments, I think they rank the QBs:

 

-Murray

-Haskins

-Lock

-Jones/Minshew

 

And I think they rank the 2020 situations/environment:

-Lock

-Murray

-Jones

-Haskins

-Minshew

 

I pretty much agree with each of their rankings.

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I think it's a bit of all three.  Based on their comments, I think they rank the QBs:

 

-Murray

-Haskins

-Lock

-Jones/Minshew

 

And I think they rank the 2020 situations/environment:

-Lock

-Murray

-Jones

-Haskins

-Minshew

 

I pretty much agree with each of their rankings.

I'd probably put Murray in front of Lock for 2020 situations/environment. Kyler had a full year under his belt and now gets to add the best WR to his arsenal. They have a better RB corp and I think that defense is gonna cause a LOT of turnovers. 

[HTTRDynasty]

28 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'd probably put Murray in front of Lock for 2020 situations/environment. Kyler had a full year under his belt and now gets to add the best WR to his arsenal. They have a better RB corp and I think that defense is gonna cause a LOT of turnovers. 

 

I agree Murray's WR corps is better, but Lock's is a close second.  Sutton is a legitimate top 12 WR, Noah Fant is a top 10 TE, and Jeudy and Hamler are both electric weapons who should do well as rookies.  

 

I would take Denver's RB corps over the Cardinals, even though I think Drake may be the best RB from both teams.  Denver's is super deep and filled with talent.

 

I think the biggest separator is the coaching.  The level of head coaching experience (and coaching in general) on that Denver staff easily dwarfs anything Arizona has, and I think Lock is going to be a huge beneficiary of the cumulative football knowledge surrounding him.  

 

Also, Denver's defense was much better than Arizona's last year and I expect it to be even better this year with a healthy Chubb, the addition of Jurrell Casey, and a full season from Alexander Johnson.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Just listened to their bit on Jones and Minshew.  The vibe I got was Minshew can become a solid all around QB, but that's about it.  Jones...they don't think much of.  They didn't say 'Bust', but if I was a Giants fan, that would not be a happy-fun-time listening experience.