Retain Jay For 2019?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[justice98]

I really see no compellingly reason to keep Gruden.  Yes, it's not all his fault, a couple other people need to go with him, injuries, etc, but still, one playoff game in 5 years.  What are we doing here?  Do we really want a 6th year of nothing?

 

He really is Norv Turner.  Just a middling head coach through and through.  

 

And with the QB situation being what it is, you absolutely cant bring him back only to can him a year later.  Unless, the plan is to punt on QB next year and make due with scraps or the hope and prayer Alex Smith comes back next year.  And then go hard after a QB in 2020.

[Burgold]

I can get the "it's not his fault!" crowd's logic. After all, Jay has been saddled with an insane number of injuries and had questionable talent at receiver. That said, at one point his offense had Adriane Peterson, Jordan Reed, Chris Thompson, Jameson Crowder, Richardson, Doctson, Scherff, Williams, Alex Smith one season removed from a Pro Bowl season, and a defense that kept forcing punts.

 

And we still stank on offense.

 

But that's not really the biggest point though I do feel Gruden and Manusky have not maximized their talent or built a scheme flexible enough to exploit it while honing in on the opponent's weaknesses. The biggest point is that it's deja vu. For the last three years, we have been this 7-9 kinda team that almost gets to the playoffs and always falls short. Sometimes, it's because we fail, flat and unprepared, against an inferior team after we come off a bye or a ten day rest. Other times, it's that we play well, but wilt in the critical moments (like yesterday), but consistently when the going gets tough the Redskins head home. It's been three seasons in a row where we were good enough where we could say... Win and you're in... and each time we were out.

 

Yes, the excuses have weight. They are really legit, but when the same thing happens three years in a row then it's not bad luck. It's bad management and bad coaching. It's Bruce AND Gruden.

[sjinhan]

I like Gruden so its not worst thing for him to come back... BUT we have to grid of Bruce Allen and start over at the top... if this means firing Gruden and start over from scratch then its the price we need to pay...

[skinsmania123]

I am super critical of Jay, and I truly believe the Skins need to move on from him, but yesterday his team seemed ready to play on both sides of the ball when the game started. Until the middle of the 3rd and then they reverted to their gaffes, missed opportunities, losing fire etc.  Maybe JJ energized them to start the game?   Because on D they moved faster to the ball, and shut Henry down in the first half, all the way towards the end of the 3rd quarter. 

 

  The offense IMO functioned better and AP tried to carry the day. But there was that critical drop by Floyd on the 5 yard line that was crushing IMO.   And then on the D the crushing, through the hands missed INT opportunity by Dix.   Then they started pressing because the Titans scored and then they are forced to go to the air and move away from the ball control game plan.  and either Doctson or Sprinkle were not where JJ thought they would be, so another game crushing mistake, the INT occurred.   And is it all on JJ?  Hell no.  Your D needed to step up to help this replacement QB.   

 

The D should have been the squad carrying the day,   helping out JJ.  They wilted once again in really critical times.  They have ZERO finish in them.  Most  ineffective when most needed there, starting at the end of the 3rd and throughout the 4th quarter.   AND that lack of fire and belief is solely on the teams HC.  This team does not have that fight and sustaining fire under Gruden.  

 

And because of the ineptitude of the secondary and it has been inept the last 4 games, or so,  which  ironically or not, coincides with the Dix signing,  who was supposed to be an upgrade, who actually made the secondary worse, the big choke, so yes, even QB's like "Blaine ****ing Gabbert" are able to exploit it.  And that dropped INT right through Dix's hands?   A real Kodak moment of who he has been for the Redskins and probably the Packers.

 

  And those mouths on Norman, and DJ  the ones who misplace blame and responsibility on their coach play that play in that inept secondary.  Is it his fault you get beat?  Get turned around?  Can't tackle?  Miss assignments?  Over pursue? Under pursue?  That's  right guys.  Blaine ****ing Gabbert kicked your ass because you do not execute consistently.  And I like DJ as a player but you cannot have a player IN PUBLIC blasting their coach.   I mean come on.   And he has done it before.  

 

JAY should have shut that **** down the last time he did it.  If you are respected, effective HC, your players say nothing in public.   I am convinced we need to move on from Jay.  The is an undisciplined team that when adversity arises in games they wilt for the most part.  That to me is a Jay Gruden team.  

 

 

 

 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

I really see no compellingly reason to keep Gruden.  Yes, it's not all his fault, a couple other people need to go with him, injuries, etc, but still, one playoff game in 5 years.  What are we doing here?  Do we really want a 6th year of nothing?

 

He really is Norv Turner.  Just a middling head coach through and through.  

 

And with the QB situation being what it is, you absolutely cant bring him back only to can him a year later.  Unless, the plan is to punt on QB next year and make due with scraps or the hope and prayer Alex Smith comes back next year.  And then go hard after a QB in 2020.

 

I want the next President to hire a GM.

 

Then I want the new GM make the call on Jay. Either the new GM fires Jay, or he decide to ride along with him. But it must be his call, and only his!

 

[skinzplay]

Do it like the Browns approached it. Hire a new GM/President and let him assess what the team has and what it needs moving forward. If he feels that means a new coach, then so be it. But at least Gruden will have a chance to actually coach for his job under new leadership. Despite what he says, I think there is a certain level of comfort for him as long as George Allen's son is in that building and filtering reality for Snyder. I'm ambivalent about Gruden. I don't hate the guy, but there are definite deficiencies in his coaching ability.

[Peregrine]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If this is true, this is very bad.  To say that they may or may not fire Allen, but that he has heard Gruden is coming back, means basically Snyder has already decided who the coach is, and the GM will again be a lame duck.  Same old same old.  If a new GM isnt hired, and given 100% full control and ability to fire Gruden on the spot, with no pressure to keep him except if he wants to, then nothing good will come of the next 5 years, again.

[lavar1156]

Bring Jay back. Hire someone like Bowels or Rivera to be DC. 

 

Hire a new strength and conditioning staff. Not the body builder meathead we have employed now. A staff that focuses on injury prevention.

 

And of course...fire Bruce.

[Warhead36]

I don't blame Gruden for the overall ineffectiveness of the offense because there are just way too many injuries.

 

But Gruden still makes mistakes in the things he can control, such as predictable playcalling, poor clock and overall game management, and just bad feel for the game. I'm willing to excuse some of the OL false start/holdings on playing new guys, but you also have regular starters like Trent Williams holding EVERY week.

 

And the D has fallen off big time. Gruden might be an offensive minded guy but he's the HEAD coach, so EVERYTHING is under his purview.

[carex]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't blame Gruden for the overall ineffectiveness of the offense because there are just way too many injuries.

 

But Gruden still makes mistakes in the things he can control, such as predictable playcalling, poor clock and overall game management, and just bad feel for the game. I'm willing to excuse some of the OL false start/holdings on playing new guys, but you also have regular starters like Trent Williams holding EVERY week.

 

And the D has fallen off big time. Gruden might be an offensive minded guy but he's the HEAD coach, so EVERYTHING is under his purview.

 

a less injured offense may allow a less predictable one.

[Riggo-toni]

5 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

 

I want the next President to hire a GM.

 

Then I want the new GM make the call on Jay. Either the new GM fires Jay, or he decide to ride along with him. But it must be his call, and only his!

 

This is the argument/FO structure I have been ceaselessly advocating for the last decade.

Firing Jay before Bruce would be a step back, even if Jay is incurably mediocre.

[Cooleyfan1993]

IF jay is kept for 2019, I think we have to demand that he hire an OC (somebody that can ACTUALLY call good plays!!!!) cause jay gruden calling the plays isn't doing it, obviously. oh, and if he wants to keep manusky for another season, then fire Jay right away, since it will then be clear that he does not know good defensive coaching if it bit him in the butt

[Burgold]

7 hours ago, lavar1156 said:

Bring Jay back. Hire someone like Bowels or Rivera to be DC. 

 

Hire a new strength and conditioning staff. Not the body builder meathead we have employed now. A staff that focuses on injury prevention.

 

And of course...fire Bruce.

The question is would Rivera or Bowels want to come for what very well may be a lame duck season. The D has talent so it may be enticing, but do you really want to sign up and uproot the family for what's in all likelihood a one and done?

[Cooleyfan1993]

4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The question is would Rivera or Bowels want to come for what very well may be a lame duck season. The D has talent so it may be enticing, but do you really want to sign up and uproot the family for what's in all likelihood a one and done?

I can definitely see that argument. but at the same time, it could be a chance to prove to whoever our new coach is, that he should keep the DC on the new coaching staff. 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

I can definitely see that argument. but at the same time, it could be a chance to prove to whoever our new coach is, that he should keep the DC on the new coaching staff. 

Or showcasing his abilities and apply for the HC job.

 

Still, if the new DC does a good job, and the OC does as well and things starts clicking, it'll unlikely be one and done.

[88Comrade2000]

 

This thread is irrelevant. Jay isn't going to fired.

[UKskins]

I like Jay and he is a good dude. I wouldnt be totally horrified if they kept him but i do think its time to move on. No question that Injuries have massively hindered the team and the roster building has been questionable at best so its definitely not all Jay's fault, but he doesnt learn from his mistakes and his limitations are significant enough that i believe they hinder the team.

 

1) Playcalls - Keep doing the same thing over and over and over and keep getting the same results. The infamous Doctson fade, Run up the gut every first down, try to get ridiculously cute every third and short and call plays that start 5 yards behind the LOS instead of just getting the first. Why is he even calling the plays instead of huring a dedicated Offensive Coordinator?

 

2) Clock management - Theres no excuse for the issues we have with the clock every year. None at all.

 

3) Defensive Coordinator hires have been atrocious every damn time. Manusky is the best choice hes made but the bar is so low after Barry and Haz that its untrue.

 

4) Inability to motivate the team when it matters. We always embarass ourselves on primetime and in clutch game situations. Its not good enough.

 

Like I say, I really like Jay. Hes a great guy but Im ready to move on from him. Wish him the best in the future though.

[Snagletooth]

We ran the ball 30 plus times vs Titans.  I would like to get  a play count  on how many of those attempts were power vs zone.  It looked predominately power.  Is this a fundamental shift?  If so it seems to fits the personnel much better.  It obviously best utilized AP's strength, and also better fits our identity as a Smash mouth ball control defensive team.  14 games too late maybe?

 

I'm ok to move forward with Jay.  I don't want to do a total philosophical shift and bring in a Hot Shot spread offense aggressive pass first "Next McVay" type.  I don't think a transition to that at all with the QB dead weight is feasible.  Schematically Jay knows  the McVay offense/philosophy as well as anyone anyway.  He is essentially from the McVay tree.  Bring in Zac Taylor Rams QB coach and make him OC,  give him play calling duties.   Play smashouth until we have the QB in place and his development is progressed sufficiently enough to transition to a more aggressive offensive style.

[Burgold]

3 hours ago, Snagletooth said:

We ran the ball 30 plus times vs Titans.  I would like to get  a play count  on how many of those attempts were power vs zone.  It looked predominately power.  Is this a fundamental shift?  If so it seems to fits the personnel much better.  It obviously best utilized AP's strength, and also better fits our identity as a Smash mouth ball control defensive team.  14 games too late maybe?

 

I'm ok to move forward with Jay.  I don't want to do a total philosophical shift and bring in a Hot Shot spread offense aggressive pass first "Next McVay" type.  I don't think a transition to that at all with the QB dead weight is feasible.  Schematically Jay knows  the McVay offense/philosophy as well as anyone anyway.  He is essentially from the McVay tree.  Bring in Zac Taylor Rams QB coach and make him OC,  give him play calling duties.   Play smashouth until we have the QB in place and his development is progressed sufficiently enough to transition to a more aggressive offensive style.

My guess is that it isn't a fundamental shift, but a necessity. Zone probably requires more coordination and lineman choreography. Power is just my man beats your man. Given that none of guards know anyone on the team it probably makes more sense to tell them, "Plow straight ahead!" versus doing anything with finesse.

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

My guess is that it isn't a fundamental shift, but a necessity. Zone probably requires more coordination and lineman choreography. Power is just my man beats your man. Given that none of guards know anyone on the team it probably makes more sense to tell them, "Plow straight ahead!" versus doing anything with finesse.

This is my guess as well, and I’ve got to say (if it’s the case) it was a breath of fresh air.  I keep bringing up the idea maybe that running multiple blocking styles/schemes makes it harder for off-the-street olinemen... so I have to give credit to Gruden for making this change.  You say it may have been ‘necessity’, but we’ve had street guys on the oline for a while now, right?  Then again, we’ve had Bergstrom in, so maybe it’s been just one new guy most weeks.  

 

Now, the above is speculation, and so is this - I feel like Gruden tends to be a bit stubborn, conservative and therefore slow to make changes.  If someone else suggested a change in the blocking/run scheme, I’d like to see that person encouraged to get in Gruden’s ear more often, because ‘minor’ changes/tweaks, like the one we’re discussing, could have a huge impact going forward.  

[Bonez3]

Absolutely not... Give me Jim Harbaugh and some attitude. 

 

Need to overhaul the entire organization. 

 

Jay's game management seems stuck in 90's football, very predictable and conservative. No input on D at all. 

 

The Tenn game this weekend and clock management in final 4 minutes was atrocious. You let the clock trickle down to the 2 minute warning. Than, after the 2 minute warning timeout you dial up an 8 yard play and go into a huddle!!!??!!? You don't have 2 plays lined up back to back. WTF man. 

 

Now, the next play was a INT. But damn, that's coaching 101 after 2 minute warning, have 2 plays called. Further, how do you allow your DC to run such a conservative D facing the likes of Cody Kessler/Blaine Gabbert in back to back weeks. The minute Gabbert entered the game he should have B lined to Manusky and demand a scheme that has him beat us. 8 in the box, blitzing from various levels and positions, jailbreak blitzes on 3rd down. But nope, 4man pressures and man-man packages. 

 

He's average and from a game that is now antiquated 

[Morneblade]

On 12/23/2018 at 10:31 AM, Warhead36 said:

I don't blame Gruden for the overall ineffectiveness of the offense because there are just way too many injuries.

 

But Gruden still makes mistakes in the things he can control, such as predictable playcalling, poor clock and overall game management, and just bad feel for the game. I'm willing to excuse some of the OL false start/holdings on playing new guys, but you also have regular starters like Trent Williams holding EVERY week.

 

And the D has fallen off big time. Gruden might be an offensive minded guy but he's the HEAD coach, so EVERYTHING is under his purview.

 

23 hours ago, carex said:

 

a less injured offense may allow a less predictable one.

 

Relying on oft injured players, with no real backup plan is completely on Jay. 3/5 of your starters on the OL are hurt every year. 2 of your biggest playmakers are hurt every year.  You can't not blame the coach for always having guys that are injury prone, get hurt.

[88Comrade2000]

23 hours ago, Burgold said:

The question is would Rivera or Bowels want to come for what very well may be a lame duck season. The D has talent so it may be enticing, but do you really want to sign up and uproot the family for what's in all likelihood a one and done?

If Rivera gets fired from Carolina, he probably will have a chance to be head coach elsewhere. Why would he sully himself and come here.

 

The best thing to happen for this team long term, is to truely stink in 2019.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

Relying on oft injured players, with no real backup plan is completely on Jay. 3/5 of your starters on the OL are hurt every year. 2 of your biggest playmakers are hurt every year.  You can't not blame the coach for always having guys that are injury prone, get hurt.

I am not high on camp Jay today (I'll likely cool off 😀  ) but I'll defend him on this one.  Bruce runs the FO not Jay.  And if Chris Russell is right -- Jay was very upset with Bruce's approach to FA this off season.  I put that on the Bruce thread months back. 

 

Bruce is notoriously cheap in FA.