Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

He had 2 weeks to prepare and got blown out of the building in the first half. Again had to settle for a field goal inside the 10 yard line with 1st and goal early in the game...blame all the players if you want, I blame JG and am tired of watching prime time losses on his watch. He's a good guy but not a good head coach. I hope he turns it around because this division won't get any weaker and if be can't win the division this year then his fate will be sealed for sure.

I agree.  I'm worried injuries will kill a prime opportunity, but it is sitting right in front of us.

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On 10/9/2018 at 1:39 PM, Renegade7 said:

 

I can't even tell what the game plan was because Alex was throwing at peoples feet.  I hear you in the rollouts, but also seen Alex run right into a defend a couple times waiting for him early in the season, so not sure what to make if that.  Throwing to CT in the red zone was atrocious, but like i said they were waiting for the CT screen passes, teams aren't falling for that anymore, Saints were all over a couple of them.

 

I would've been fine benching Alex, he was that f'n bad.  I dont know if that's what to expect so i can't go with the Jay didn't motivate him line. I'm serious, Jay did not have his best game, but what is he supposed to do when the middle of his line can't pass block, his starting RB and WRs are out for injury, and his QB is throwing at peoples feet?  I know unprepared when i see it, they got ran the F over.  I mean, he benches

 

Norman so that's nit fair to say he's not holding these players accountable, then Brees went right up the field on us when he saw that. Damned if do damned if you don't with this roster.  Enough of cliche he could done this or that, in this specific game we were the sacrificial lamb and the only people that didn't know that were the people like me that didn't want to admit it.

 

Alex had a rough night but let's not just pile it all  on him. Jay had a poor game plan from the beginning. Never challenged the saints D deep. It's his job as a coach to get him out of the funk. At least try some different stuff.

 

And the injury excuse is over - they still have the same players that were injured last year for the most part. Last year there were a bunch of guys injured that had not really had a problem or had freak injuries. They made a decision to go into this year with that group of people. And if by year 5 he has no control over who is on the team that is on him - just like it was on MS when he complained about Bruce and Dan making him take players and trades - See McNabb - RG3 etc - The performance last night is on Jay. He is not inspiring guys to play hard when it matters.

 

And one guy getting benched is not holding guys accountable. You can't seriously be trying to make that argument. Yea, I got 43 guys pissing off. Let me bench one guy and that's holding them accountable .Sorry, not enough and way too late.

 

We were a sacrificial lamb because we were not prepared to play and NFL game. And that is directly on Jay and the coaching staff as much as it is the players.

Edited by goskins10
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8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Edit

 

I don't quite understand this sentence.  Should the "not" be a "now?"

 

 

Edit

 

 

Yes. I fixed it.

 

The good news is that with a decent offseason, we could be one of those instant turn around teams.... never mind. forgot about dumb danny.

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11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This thread was supposed to be about setting up evaluation criteria for Gruden this year, and then seeing if he met/missed them.

 

There's no point to go through a point by point evaluation of Gruden.  You don't need to see anymore from to make a decision on his future; even if the team makes the playoffs.

 

Gruden can go no further as head coach. He doesn't have the ability to go beyond; what we have seen for the last 5 years.   

 

If this team makes the playoffs, it's basically a repeat of 2015.  The Skins only made the playoffs that year because the NFC EAST was down.  This year, the NFC East looks to be down. So, the Skins will probably be in playoff contention all season and may even make it.  If we make the playoffs, it will be a quick exit.

 

There's literally nothing more to evaluate with Gruden.  The Skins in 2019 need to hire a new coach.  

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5 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

There's no point to go through a point by point evaluation of Gruden.  You don't need to see anymore from to make a decision on his future; even if the team makes the playoffs.

 

Gruden can go no further as head coach. He doesn't have the ability to go beyond; what we have seen for the last 5 years.   

 

If this team makes the playoffs, it's basically a repeat of 2015.  The Skins only made the playoffs that year because the NFC EAST was down.  This year, the NFC East looks to be down. So, the Skins will probably be in playoff contention all season and may even make it.  If we make the playoffs, it will be a quick exit.

 

There's literally nothing more to evaluate with Gruden.  The Skins in 2019 need to hire a new coach.  

 

 

I have to agree.  I've been a supporter of Gruden... and more and more I wonder if it's because I've just become desperate for consistency and stability.  I've liked Gruden, but have had a part of me that thinks he's too much like Norv.  Many other people have pointed it out too.... career OC.  He's not HC material.  It's easy to get REALLY down following a loss like that, but it's been a 5 year trend.  We get up for certain games, and we fail to show up for others.  I've wanted to invest hope in the 'big wins.'  We have the talent and ability to play with pretty much anyone in this league.  We even had the Saints right where we wanted them for the most part for the first 20 min, beating ourselves. They were not beating us, but the team just seems to crumble at times.  That is an intangible that I feel falls on coaching.  I've had enough of Gruden and feel it's time to seriously look at moving on.   

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I think Skins need to be very careful about blowing things up again.  Here's what Sports Illustrated claimed were the hottest HC prospects for 2019:

 

  1. James Bettcher, DC, New York Giants

  2. Matt LaFleur, OC, Tennessee Titans

  3. John DeFilippo, OC, Minnesota Vikings

  4. George Edwards, DC, Minnesota Vikings

  5. Robert Saleh, DC, San Francisco 49ers

  6. Brian Daboll, OC, Buffalo Bills

  7. Jim Schwartz, DC, Philadelphia Eagles

 

See link:  https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/28/nfl-coordinators-to-watch-james-bettcher-matt-lafleur-george-edwards

 

Other names suggested were:

 Raheem Morris, assistant head coach, Atlanta Falcons... Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator, Buffalo Bills… Dave Toub, assistant head coach/special teams coordinator, Kansas City Chiefs… Brian Flores, linebackers coach, New England Patriots… Eric Washington, defensive coordinator, Carolina Panthers… Teryl Austin, defensive coordinator, Cincinnati Bengals… Jim Harbaugh, head coach, University of Michigan.

 

IMO. I m not sure that's such a great list.  And frankly it's not clear whether the highest quality candidates would even want to come here.

Edited by Wyvern
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40 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

I think Skins need to be very careful about blowing things up again.  Here's what Sports Illustrated claimed were the hottest HC prospects for 2019:

 

  1. James Bettcher, DC, New York Giants

  2. Matt LaFleur, OC, Tennessee Titans

  3. John DeFilippo, OC, Minnesota Vikings

  4. George Edwards, DC, Minnesota Vikings

  5. Robert Saleh, DC, San Francisco 49ers

  6. Brian Daboll, OC, Buffalo Bills

  7. Jim Schwartz, DC, Philadelphia Eagles

 

See link:  https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/28/nfl-coordinators-to-watch-james-bettcher-matt-lafleur-george-edwards

 

Other names suggested were:

 Raheem Morris, assistant head coach, Atlanta Falcons... Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator, Buffalo Bills… Dave Toub, assistant head coach/special teams coordinator, Kansas City Chiefs… Brian Flores, linebackers coach, New England Patriots… Eric Washington, defensive coordinator, Carolina Panthers… Teryl Austin, defensive coordinator, Cincinnati Bengals… Jim Harbaugh, head coach, University of Michigan.

 

IMO. I m not sure that's such a great list.  And frankly it's not clear whether the highest quality candidates would even want to come here.

Ive read/heard good things about Dave Toub from KC...coming from the Andy Reid tree which is where Doug Pederson comes from. I'd interview him for sure. I'd also consider Todd Haley, Browns OC...

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10 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Alex had a rough night but let's not just pile it all  on him. Jay had a poor game plan from the beginning. Never challenged the saints D deep. It's his job as a coach to get him out of the funk. At least try some different stuff.

 

And the injury excuse is over - they still have the same players that were injured last year for the most part. Last year there were a bunch of guys injured that had not really had a problem or had freak injuries. They made a decision to go into this year with that group of people. And if by year 5 he has no control over who is on the team that is on him - just like it was on MS when he complained about Bruce and Dan making him take players and trades - See McNabb - RG3 etc - The performance last night is on Jay. He is not inspiring guys to play hard when it matters.

 

And one guy getting benched is not holding guys accountable. You can't seriously be trying to make that argument. Yea, I got 430 guys pissing off. Let me bench one guy and that's holding them accountable .Sorry, not enough and way too late.

 

We were a sacrificial lamb because we were not prepared to play and NFL game. And that is directly on Jay and the coaching staff as much as it is the players.

 

After the interception, I swear I saw Jay yell at Alex "get to the bench" several times.  One time may have been questionable, but I saw it several times.  Now that may have just meant, go look at the tablet and get ready to go out again, I don't want to talk to you right now, but it also could have been a Freudian slip, who knows.  I also heard on a 1-on-1 interview with JP Finlay that had they gotten the ball back with 6 minutes to play, Jay admitted he would have put Colt in, but to prevent injury, was his line.

15 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Ive read/heard good things about Dave Toub from KC...coming from the Andy Reid tree which is where Doug Pederson comes from. I'd interview him for sure. I'd also consider Todd Haley, Browns OC...

 

Why did McVay have to be so good, so fast? I wish he would have stayed on until it was time to load up Jay on the ice floe and send him out to pasture, timing has really sucked for this organization

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1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I have to agree.  I've been a supporter of Gruden... and more and more I wonder if it's because I've just become desperate for consistency and stability.  I've liked Gruden, but have had a part of me that thinks he's too much like Norv.  Many other people have pointed it out too.... career OC.  He's not HC material.  It's easy to get REALLY down following a loss like that, but it's been a 5 year trend.  We get up for certain games, and we fail to show up for others.  I've wanted to invest hope in the 'big wins.'  We have the talent and ability to play with pretty much anyone in this league.  We even had the Saints right where we wanted them for the most part for the first 20 min, beating ourselves. They were not beating us, but the team just seems to crumble at times.  That is an intangible that I feel falls on coaching.  I've had enough of Gruden and feel it's time to seriously look at moving on.   

 

I wonder if there is still time for a career defining, life changing moment for Jay, where his back is against the wall and he finally makes the decision, or finds the cajones, or is literally forced, to change his coaching ways of calling plays scared (either trying to nurture a lead or panicking and ****ting the bed) and he realizes what he has to do to turn that corner and comes out a better coach, is there still time for that?  I hope so.

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6 minutes ago, WeThreeKingsRuleU said:

 

I wonder if there is still time for a career defining, life changing moment for Jay, where his back is against the wall and he finally makes the decision, or finds the cajones, or is literally forced, to change his coaching ways of calling plays scared (either trying to nurture a lead or panicking and ****ting the bed) and he realizes what he has to do to turn that corner and comes out a better coach, is there still time for that?  I hope so.

 

 

He's had those moments before and nothing has changed.  He's 3 losses away from having had 3/4 seasons as HC in the playoffs.  There are some GLARING losses in his tenure, and they're primarily on the big stage, and primarily after victories.   This was not a season defining loss..  In fact, I don't think anyone wins that game...  The Saints just had too much going.. but we can't do THAT.  We can't allow them to not punt all game.  We can't play a defense thats allowing a 75% completion rate to dictate where we go with the ball.   We can't miss open WR.  We can't GIVE them additional plays.  The 2 drives we HANDED them 1st downs... they score.  If they punt, and we STILL don't score, that's a 14 point swing.  If we force punts and then score points.. we're talking about a COMPLETELY different game.  That stuff is on Gruden.  He had 2 weeks to prepare for this.  He HAD to know it was going to be a war and we were going to get the best the Saints had to offer. 

 

It was pointed out by B-mitch.  Why are guys getting "Vet" days, the MONDAY AFTER THE BYE WEEK?!  WTF is that?  Gruden FINALLY had the cajones to do something and bench Norman, and I applaud him for that, but why hasn't he benched Doc?  Why hasn't he benched Lavaou?  Rouller at LG and Bergstrom at C is a better set there.  It needs to be that way going forward... 

 

Even Trent got embarrassed on a sack.   

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We have a Jeff Fisher for a HC, the Jeff Fisher of presidents, and the Jeff Fisher of NFL owners. Not a lot of franchises can pull off a trifecta of Jeff Fishers but we've managed to overcome those odds.

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19 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Anyone think that Gruden wants to be gone? Basically saying "yep, it's all my fault, we suck because of me" 

Good point. The thought did not cross my mind but I do not think he wants to get canned. I mean where would he go with the poor record he has posted here? Not like teams would be lining up to get him as a HC. Maybe he is tired of the long hours and loosing. I think coaches know more than we do and he must be thinking that he has not been blessed with the best personnel and that is true. Look at our no1 and 2 draft choices the last 10 years. Seems better the last 2 but the SM picks sucked. Look at the Smith trade and the  KC debacle. Look at the free agent mess with signing of a weak CB for way too much money and  letting good WRs leave. A guy can only take so much when he works his ass off then watches his team get destroyed in prime time. He then gets burned out and starts thinking "I just don't care anymore." P.S. I heard a good under the radar canadate for HC is the OC for the Bears. Cheers.

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51 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Good point. The thought did not cross my mind but I do not think he wants to get canned. I mean where would he go with the poor record he has posted here? Not like teams would be lining up to get him as a HC. Maybe he is tired of the long hours and loosing. I think coaches know more than we do and he must be thinking that he has not been blessed with the best personnel and that is true. Look at our no1 and 2 draft choices the last 10 years. Seems better the last 2 but the SM picks sucked. Look at the Smith trade and the  KC debacle. Look at the free agent mess with signing of a weak CB for way too much money and  letting good WRs leave. A guy can only take so much when he works his ass off then watches his team get destroyed in prime time. He then he starts thinking the "I just don't care anymore." Cheers.

Guys.. I think this point is ridiculous. No coach wants to get fired... unless there is major friction with the owner or GM which i dont sense here. Bottom line is if Gruden gets fired, the best he can hope for is an OC job which honestly would be a much better job for him.. he does not seem to possess the necessary traits for a HC

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I've said it before and I'll say it again: anything less than a playoff appearance should spell the end of Gruden and Allen.  But I have a bad feeling that Gruden will be shown the door and Allen will be spared.  

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59 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: anything less than a playoff appearance should spell the end of Gruden and Allen.  But I have a bad feeling that Gruden will be shown the door and Allen will be spared.  

if Smith has more days like last Mon.. Allen is gone since he was the one who brought him in and paid him..i actually think he will be gone at the end of the season either way or transitioned completely out of football operations.

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7 hours ago, Wyvern said:

I think Skins need to be very careful about blowing things up again.  Here's what Sports Illustrated claimed were the hottest HC prospects for 2019:

 

  1. James Bettcher, DC, New York Giants

  2. Matt LaFleur, OC, Tennessee Titans

  3. John DeFilippo, OC, Minnesota Vikings

  4. George Edwards, DC, Minnesota Vikings

  5. Robert Saleh, DC, San Francisco 49ers

  6. Brian Daboll, OC, Buffalo Bills

  7. Jim Schwartz, DC, Philadelphia Eagles

 

See link:  https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/28/nfl-coordinators-to-watch-james-bettcher-matt-lafleur-george-edwards

 

Other names suggested were:

 Raheem Morris, assistant head coach, Atlanta Falcons... Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator, Buffalo Bills… Dave Toub, assistant head coach/special teams coordinator, Kansas City Chiefs… Brian Flores, linebackers coach, New England Patriots… Eric Washington, defensive coordinator, Carolina Panthers… Teryl Austin, defensive coordinator, Cincinnati Bengals… Jim Harbaugh, head coach, University of Michigan.

 

IMO. I m not sure that's such a great list.  And frankly it's not clear whether the highest quality candidates would even want to come here.

It may sound crazy and I'm sure *some* will give me s*&T but I'd like to see Greg Williams invited back. At LEAST he has the attitude and with this D talent I think it will be fun to watch. I *HOPE* Danny didn't burn that bridge. We need MEAN and Greg has it in spades

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8 hours ago, Wyvern said:

I think Skins need to be very careful about blowing things up again.  Here's what Sports Illustrated claimed were the hottest HC prospects for 2019:

 

  1. James Bettcher, DC, New York Giants

  2. Matt LaFleur, OC, Tennessee Titans

  3. John DeFilippo, OC, Minnesota Vikings

  4. George Edwards, DC, Minnesota Vikings

  5. Robert Saleh, DC, San Francisco 49ers

  6. Brian Daboll, OC, Buffalo Bills

  7. Jim Schwartz, DC, Philadelphia Eagles

 

See link:  https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/28/nfl-coordinators-to-watch-james-bettcher-matt-lafleur-george-edwards

 

Other names suggested were:

 Raheem Morris, assistant head coach, Atlanta Falcons... Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator, Buffalo Bills… Dave Toub, assistant head coach/special teams coordinator, Kansas City Chiefs… Brian Flores, linebackers coach, New England Patriots… Eric Washington, defensive coordinator, Carolina Panthers… Teryl Austin, defensive coordinator, Cincinnati Bengals… Jim Harbaugh, head coach, University of Michigan.

 

IMO. I m not sure that's such a great list.  And frankly it's not clear whether the highest quality candidates would even want to come here.

DeFilippo, Toub, and LaFleur are all great candidates. Schwartz might be one too although is risky.

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as bad as Gruden's coaching in preparation and in-game.....his post-game presser and Monday one were pretty awful. Felt like he was reciting what he practiced without any emotion or energy or urgency.

 

If he's the OC for the Raiders next year. I wouldn't be shocked.

 

No idea on coaches. Honestly, without a rebuild front office featuring Bruce moving on. I don't know what to say. I don't trust him to hire a 3rd coach.

 

 

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I dont think Gruden wants to be canned, I think he realizes that making excuses that its someone elses fault in year 5 wont go over well.  Even he cant lie to himself about that.  

 

A big problem is that this is year 5 for Gruden.  In year 5, he still looks no where near a great coach.  If you cant do it in 5 years, when is it ever going to happen?  Right now hes no where near the top 10 in the NFL, and after 5 years, that should be pretty obvious we need to move on unless this season just ends up fantastic.  Mediocre shouldnt be acceptable to this franchise.  There are 12 playoff spots, if we cant get a coach whos at least 10th in the league we should move on every time.

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To those that still defend Gruden, I pose this question:  if he was hired in La instead of McVay, and allowed to build his own coaching staff and team, would he have gotten to 11 wins and coach of the year last year? 5-0 this year?

 

There’s no way to know, but I doubt it.  

 

And I’m dead sure he would have punted with a 2 point lead in Seattle last week and let Wilson take shots at winning the game instead of sacking up and trying to win on offense.

 

And I’m sure because he’s done it I’ve and over

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