Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Voice_of_Reason]

38 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Seriously? So a few talking heads say it so it must be 100%? Again, sure Jays owns some of it, mostly in terms of play calling and game plan. But you should not have to hold a 13 yr vet's hand to get him ready and prepared. His biggest value was to be off schedule plays. That has nothing to do with Jay in terms of preparation. Alex has been really up and down on this. One week good at extending plays and making something happen and really bad at other times - see last Monday Night. 

 

They need to right this ship and quickly or this season will be gone. As I said elsewhere, the only positive is that Bruce Allen should be gone with it. 

What I'm saying is that there are other folks out there who are putting some responsibility on Gruden, it's not just me.  Alex has to be accountable for his performance, however it's Jay's job to get the team prepared and comfortable, and Alex didn't seem that way on MNF, and sure as hell the defense didn't look that way either.  And yes, it's Jay's responsibility to make sure the defense is ready, because he's the HC, and hires the DC, and then is responsible for the results. 

 

The 3 breakdowns because of communication are ridiculous.  If it was a single, out of the blue occurrence, you let it pass and move on.  The issue is it's a 4.25 year trend.  Which you can't let slide anymore.

 

I feel this back and forth is odd because you've already said you're ready to move on from Jay.  So, I think we're mostly in agreement. The inconsistency is maddening.

 

And, again, I COMPLETELY expect this team to come out gangbusters and win on Sunday.  And then I expect them to come out flat and lose against the Cowboys.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

16 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Gruden has done a crap job preparing Alex in a new offense. 

 

Contrast that to his start in KC when he started out on fire

 

One coach knows how to prepare a QB and the other is Jay Gruden.

 

 

Alex's first four games under Reid weren't all that different. The team was 4-0, but Smith averaged less than 240 passing yards per game, had a lower QB rating, and the same number of interceptions. He did have 2 more TDs than he does through 4 games under Gruden. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

^a 12 point loss isn’t what I’d call a “blowout”. Monday nights game? THAT is a blowout ??

The Redskins were never in the Colts game.  The score was not reflective of how badly they played.

[Renegade7]

@Voice_of_Reason

 

If he doesn't have a 10 win team between now and 2030, I dn care what the reason is, you are right. 1/5/30 it is : )

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The Redskins were never in the Colts game.  The score was not reflective of how badly they played.

Still not a blowout. Like i said,  Monday’s game is a blowout. Last nights game was as well. Week 2 Vs the colts, was not. Just in terms of what i refer to as one.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

He's fine. He's average. The team is broken. It doesn't work. Dan Snyder's little brother is building a space shuttle out of household appliances. You know, like vacuum cleaners & blenders. That thing is probably going to work. Snyder can't get this team out of the garage.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

What I'm saying is that there are other folks out there who are putting some responsibility on Gruden, it's not just me.  Alex has to be accountable for his performance, however it's Jay's job to get the team prepared and comfortable, and Alex didn't seem that way on MNF, and sure as hell the defense didn't look that way either.  And yes, it's Jay's responsibility to make sure the defense is ready, because he's the HC, and hires the DC, and then is responsible for the results. 

 

The 3 breakdowns because of communication are ridiculous.  If it was a single, out of the blue occurrence, you let it pass and move on.  The issue is it's a 4.25 year trend.  Which you can't let slide anymore.

 

I feel this back and forth is odd because you've already said you're ready to move on from Jay.  So, I think we're mostly in agreement. The inconsistency is maddening.

 

And, again, I COMPLETELY expect this team to come out gangbusters and win on Sunday.  And then I expect them to come out flat and lose against the Cowboys.

 

First, it's my turn to apologize. The initial part of the comment sounds much more snarky than I meant it to be. In truth is was supposed to be a bit of tongue in cheek. Best laid plans.... 

 

Yes, I am ready to move on. And yes we are mostly in agreement. But where we may be different is that I do not see Jay as the root of all issues. Honestly, I do not believe Jay is our biggest problem. I like Alex. But as a 13 yr veteran he must be held accountable. The rest of the players own it also. You may not be prepared by the staff, but if you are personally ready you can still make plays. Guys are not holding themselves accountable. I look at a guy like London Fletcher. Regardless of who the HC was he still balled out. He made sure he was prepared and played at a high level no matter what the staff did. 

 

While I like parts of the roster to a certain extent, the fear many had - including myself - is with Bruce having final say on personal the construction of the team does not match what our HC wants to do. And yes, Jay owns some of that too. He is either not protesting enough or is Ok with bringing in guys that do not fit what he wants to do and expects to change them.

 

It is becoming apparent that Jay and Bruce are moving further apart not closer together. The entire team - outside a few players - lacks mental toughness. Yes that starts with Jay but guys need to own it also. 

 

What I expect is we come out playing awesome but never relay put them away and lose on a Cam Newton heroic of some sort. Then we beat dallast and the giants getting everyone all excited and then it's all down hill after that. I just do not see more than 2 more wins. I really hope I am wrong. Only consolation is Bruce should be removed from doing anything with player personnel. 

[NoCalMike]

As bad as the Giants look right now, Jay Gruden will probably have the team prepared to lose in embarrassing fashion against them. 

[Peregrine]

On 10/11/2018 at 12:38 PM, PartyPosse said:

Goff was basically a rookie who played less than half a season prior to McVay. Dude was a #1 overall pick and you call him trash because he didn’t immediately light it up. What if Mahomes played last year aside from that last game and sucked, would he have been trash too? Gurley was having a rough year because of the QB effect, but he’s one of the three best RB in football and prior to last year he was dominant. The defense also went out and signed a bunch of big names including Talib, Suh and Peters to go along with already having the best defensive player in football. 

 

Your comparison is poor.

Oh please, picking and choosing.  So if hes great under McVay it was because he was always going to be great, and it has nothing to do with McVay.  But vice-versa wouldnt fit your already decided factpinion if it was another player.  

You say Goff is one of the best, you say Gurley is one of the best, but the fact is they werent.  They werent even just mediocre, they were really really bad.  Gurley was running at 3.2 YPC.  Gurleys first year under McVay was better than both of his previous years combined, with 19 TDs.  In fact, in 2016 the Rams had the worst rushing offense the franchise has had in the past 50 years. The issue with Goff wasnt just that he was an underdeveloped rookie.  The issue was that he was outright terrible.  His performance that season was one the worst rookie QB seasons in modern history.  In fact, his combination of TDs, turnovers, and yards per attempt put him in the top 5 worst seasons for a rookie in the past 40 years.

 

Basically the side that hates McVay just wants to say that the reason the Rams were bad was because of their HC, but the reason they are good now isnt because of their HC. Probably because of some of the guilt for trashing McVay and wanting him out because red zone scoring wasnt good enough, without realizing hes a young guy who had a top offense.  Now you realize what we had, and what we let get away.

 

You cant have your cake and eat it too. Well, unless you just want to look like a fool.

On 10/11/2018 at 7:18 AM, Wildbunny said:

That's the Jeff Fisher effect.

Oh, so the HC was the reason for their record?

 

But now, the HC is not the reason for their record?

On 10/11/2018 at 7:18 AM, Wildbunny said:

That's the Jeff Fisher effect.

Oh, so the HC was the reason for their record and performance?

 

But now, the HC is not the reason for their record and performance?

[Wildbunny]

15 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Oh, so the HC was the reason for their record and performance?

 

But now, the HC is not the reason for their record and performance?

I never said that.

 

[Veryoldschool]

Code Red game, Jay has to win this one

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

Code Red game, Jay has to win this one

 

Jay doesn't have to do anything but stay black and die.

 

I'm going to keep quoting 80s movies until someone notices.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

Code Red game, Jay has to win this one

 

Think the cowboys game is code red, like season over he's gonna walk the plank if we lose to Carolinaas well.  Panthers game is important, but if they win 2 of th next 3, we're 4-3 heading into a home game against a 1-4 Atlanta, possible 5-3 from all these winnable games in front of us.  We dont play another team with another over 500 record until December, schedule game has completely flipped in our favor, can't f this up.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Jay doesn't have to do anything but stay black and die.

 

I'm going to keep quoting 80s movies until someone notices.

Lean on me.

[Renegade7]

 

[mojo]

I fully expect a humiliating defeat on 

Sunday.  We’ve never beaten Cam and while the Panthers get Greg Olsen back, our #1 receiver might be guy best known for a DUI 3 years ago.

When the clock hits zero and our players are casually strolling to the locker room,, laughing and horsing around after a 30 pt loss, the timer starts on Gruden.  My guess is Bill Callahan is coaching the team by week 10.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

Code Red game, Jay has to win this one

 

I think it oddly is especially with Dallas up the week after.  

 

Chris Russell‏ @Russellmania621 12h12 hours ago

More

Chris Russell Retweeted Dan Steinberg

Lots of frustration. A lot of anger in that building and in the executive branch. They won't say it, but many wondering when the hammer is going to drop. A bad loss on Sunday & a large # of empty seats just might do it. #Redskins

 

5 hours ago, mojo said:

I fully expect a humiliating defeat on 

Sunday.  We’ve never beaten Cam and while the Panthers get Greg Olsen back, our #1 receiver might be guy best known for a DUI 3 years ago.

When the clock hits zero and our players are casually strolling to the locker room,, laughing and horsing around after a 30 pt loss, the timer starts on Gruden.  My guess is Bill Callahan is coaching the team by week 10.

 

I am not in the fire Jay and write the book on the season from the first 4 games of the season.  But to play along for argument's sake, if Dan wants to attract a good coach I wouldn't dream of firing Jay during the season.  Dan has a reputation of being volatile and not easy to work with.  That would play into the rep whether that's fair or not.   And for Bruce to survive Jay would look odd, too.  Bruce is a national punchline.  It's not just a local thing.  So I think it would be bad optics for Jay to go first if things go south nor should he go first regardless of the optics IMO.  

 

Considering how confused this O line seems to be by stunts -- and Callahan's age, not sure he's on a high right now that he'd be an embraced alternative.  If they did it I bet they'd go with O'Connell.  There are people in that building who pushed for Alex Smith.  If the season goes south I'd bet Alex's performance would have something to do with it. 

 

And considering all the gloating they made about the deal -- including in private conversations they had with beat guys who talked about it -- they'd likely scapegoat Jay for not doing what he needed to do with the perfect toy they provided him.  Stories would be leaked about how Alex wanted to do this or that but Jay held him back.  That would sort of fit the Redskins culture.  The guy leaving the building is the bad guy and the ones that remain were the smart ones and all is good. 

 

And just like they did with Jason Campbell and RG3 -- they'd want to sell that they didn't screw up with that trade.  The perfect coach is here now to fix it.  Recall how Zorn was fixing Campbell's delivery and foot work?  Sounded exciting.  So a young coach who is an RPO type I think is what they'd try to sell as the solution, in house that would be O'Connell.   Everyone will talk about how they have it all figured out now, and then they'd sell the hope of it all.  If the same crew remain in the FO, they'd draft to need and talk about focusing on a WR in the first round of the upcoming draft and start leaking to reporters which ones they like.

 

I am not saying it goes down this way or should.  But if it does that would fit the typical Redskins script.

 

If they wait until the end of the season and they do fire Jay, I think the three likely candidates

 

A. Saban:  because hey why not?  Fans aren't showing up.  He's the biggest name on the market I can think of.  But I think he turns down the offer.  It happens behind the scenes so we never even hear about it.

 

B. Defillippo -- young guy, the flavor of the month.  If Kirk continues on this track he will have a better season there than he has had here.  So the dude is almost a walking perfect narrative that they can try to sell.  Hey Kirk was better in Minny because this dude is better than Jay.  And he's from the Andy Reid tree, knows RPOs, etc.  Based on the article I read about him, I don't think Dan and Bruce (if he remains) would be his cup of tea,  He turns it down.  Unless Dan offers him a lot of money.

 

C. O'Connell -- that's who I think ends up with it mainly because the other two guys I mentioned turn it down.  They try to sell the McVay type narrative.  He is in his early 30s and an inventive mind.  We couldn't let him leave the building.  Maybe they team him up with Kyle Smith and try to sell it as the two young hot shots running things now. 

[Ashburn Dave]

I'm done with Jay.  Supported him until this year not because I saw greatness in him but more for the stability of the team thing.

 

This year though it's obvious to me that he has major flaws with being a HC and he's not going to figure it out.

 

- His time management sucks (don't know why we don't have a clock guy on the sidelines helping with that)

- He can't make halftime adjustments

- Team never up for the big game

 

Yeah, we need better players but we should be competitive every game with this current team.

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, Ashburn Dave said:

 

 

Yeah, we need better players but we should be competitive every game with this current team.

 

This is the part that has completely lost me on Jay.  If we were seeing the same team 14 out of 16 games, I'd be willing to blame the talent of the team more... but we dont... we never know week to week which team will show.  We clearly have the talent to win football games.  Talent enough to be 3-1 right now.  I don't care what team showed up vs NO, we were losing, but if the team that showed up vs GB was there, I'd look at it differently.  It also drives me crazy how flat out dominant we can be in 1 half, then disappear in the 2nd.  Players dont change over the course of a game.  Their talent levels, their abilities, their understanding of the game plan... it's not going to just stop in the lockeroom. 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

This is the part that has completely lost me on Jay.  If we were seeing the same team 14 out of 16 games, I'd be willing to blame the talent of the team more... but we dont... we never know week to week which team will show.  We clearly have the talent to win football games.  Talent enough to be 3-1 right now.  I don't care what team showed up vs NO, we were losing, but if the team that showed up vs GB was there, I'd look at it differently.  It also drives me crazy how flat out dominant we can be in 1 half, then disappear in the 2nd.  Players dont change over the course of a game.  Their talent levels, their abilities, their understanding of the game plan... it's not going to just stop in the lockeroom. 

 

I don't think the team's up and down success is that mysterious.  Seems to be contingent on one guy.   Good game from him = win.  Bad game-injury what have you = loss.  I said to my wife as soon as I saw that floater from Alex on the screen that got killed Adrian demolished early in the game -- there goes this game. 

 

 

[Leonard Washington]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think the team's up and down success is that mysterious.  Seems to be contingent on one guy. 

 

If that is true, we are doing a poor job featuring him.  We do a poor job of featuring anybody.  What are CT's signature plays?  The draw on 3rd and 15, the checkdown?  Crowder---the hook, end around, miscommunication choice route?

 

[bh32]

I think the talent is the main issue with this team and not so much Jay...Yes Jay has his issues,but look at the Defense..Im sure Jay lets the D-coord run that side of the ball without much input and they look bad except for a few players..

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said:

If that is true, we are doing a poor job featuring him.  We do a poor job of featuring anybody.  What are CT's signature plays?  The draw on 3rd and 15, the checkdown?  Crowder---the hook, end around, miscommunication choice route?

 

 

He got demolished on that screen play and then he had that shoulder thing soon after.  They've actually gotten Peterson involved in the passing game which Minny rarely did.  He had two great games already.  He's played better than last year.  So I know this is a beat up on Jay theme thread and I am going off theme but I don't think the issue is the Redskins are misusing Peterson.  The issue is that the offense at the moment is built on the prowess of a 33 year old RB who they took off the scrap heep and amazingly has something left.  But the two games he looked good -- the team looked good.  The way to beat this team is clearly shut down Adrian Peterson and make the team beat you in the air in a shoot out.  

[OVCChairman]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think the team's up and down success is that mysterious.  Seems to be contingent on one guy.   Good game from him = win.  Bad game-injury what have you = loss.  I said to my wife as soon as I saw that floater from Alex on the screen that got killed Adrian demolished early in the game -- there goes this game. 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS year.. yeah could can correlate the two... but it's been this way since Gruden started coaching here.  He's got like a 4-17 record after a win, or something stupid like that.  We always have an emotional win followed by an absolute dud.  When the season is on the line against an inferior opponent, we dont show up.  We're literally 3 games away from saying Gruden has taken us to the playoffs in 3 / 4 seasons.  Games that were not against 'better' football teams.   Look at that last 3 years and how rare we string together multiple wins in a row

 

 

I was gonna post the results but they're just too big... we had a 4 game win streak in 2015 to make it to the playoffs, we had a 4 gamer early in 2016... those i appreciate, but the vast majority of the time....

 

 In 2016 when we won 4 in a row... we then lost @ Detroit, then tied Cincy in England.  That same year we beat GB, then lost to Dallas, beat Philly, lost to Carolina, beat, Chicago, lost to NYG.   Those were not talent losing games.

 

Beating Arizona, then losing to Indy... we didnt lose to indy because we were talent deficient.  We're the more talented team.  We got outcoached, and were unprepared for a DB Pick play?  Really?  Last year with the season on the line, we win back to back Arizon / Denver, then we lay an egg vs NYG with the season on the line... .NYG WAS IN THE RUNNING FOR THE NUMBER 1 OVERALL PICK!!  They were worse last year, then they are THIS year... and they're in the conversation for no. 1 overall AGAIN!

[skins island connection]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He got demolished on that screen play and then he had that shoulder thing soon after.  They've actually gotten Peterson involved in the passing game which Minny rarely did.  He had two great games already.  He's played better than last year.  So I know this is a beat up on Jay theme thread and I am going off theme but I don't think the issue is the Redskins are misusing Peterson.  The issue is that the offense at the moment is built on the prowess of a 33 year old RB who they took off the scrap heep and amazingly has something left.  But the two games he looked good -- the team looked good.  The way to beat this team is clearly shut down Adrian Peterson and make the team beat you in the air in a shoot out.  

 

I like AP; the guy has heart and wants to actually play and does have an impact on the game. He still has some burst if he gets past the first wave, but that's wherein lies the problem, I think.

Do you think the o-line / coaching is doing a good enough job of getting him past the first wave? This is hard for me to visualize, but I'm thinking it has to be either the o-line coach or the play calling, maybe the players. If AP can be`effective and become a problem for the LBers and secondary it opens up the passing game, but it seems that Gruden just hopes for the best without a lot of help in o-line progression.

 

There are obvious running plays just looking at the formation/players on the field; to me that just tips off what they are going to do, and it drives me nuts seeing it. Its like Gruden believes the o-line is so dominant, but I can't remember the last time they were in a jumbo type formation and had success.