Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[NoCalMike]

Hey guys, the verdict on Jay Gruden & Bruce Allen is in:

 

 

[Burgold]

For now, let’s agree to disagree. IÂ’ve heard five years of excuses and as much as I believe in recycling, hearing the same old reasons to justify why sub-mediocrity is the way to go, rehashed dogma is just tiring. 

 

Gruden will never be gifted with a perfect roster that suffers zero injuries. In the cap era, he will never be able to keep every player, etc. etc. etc. 

[Dissident2]

Waiting for Gruden's conference-call-presser on the radio, and the announcers came on and said it's been delayed because the Redskins gave all the reporters the wrong password to access the call, lol. 

 

Crap from the top down. 

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, Burgold said:

For now, let’s agree to disagree. IÂ’ve heard five years of excuses and as much as I believe in recycling, hearing the same old reasons to justify why sub-mediocrity rehashed is just tiring. 

 

Gruden will I’ll never be gifted with a perfect roster that suffers zero injuries. In the cap era, he will never be able to keep every player, etc. etc. etc. 

You know what, more then fair.  I'm honestly tired of defending him, i just want to win instead of getting embarrassed for a change.  I'm never seen us do it the right way, I'm worried i may never see that.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wake me up when the media stops ****footing around and asking hard questions.

[VeroViper]

I've always believed that most of these coaches know what their doing. There are a few brilliant coaches in the league(ie Belichick/McVay) and on the opposite end of the spectrum you will occasionally find a guy that's actually in over his head(ie Spurrier/Zorn). But for the most part these guys know what the hell they're doing. It comes down to talent. At least 90% of head coach firing are actually the GM's fault IMO. It is very difficult to win if you don't have the horses. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

@Voice_of_Reason how can you say Gruden doesn't hold players accountable when he wasted no time ripping into Griffin and benched Norman himself last night?  It's not impossible to find someone accountable for their actions and it still not matter.  In the regular world, to fire people who keep making the same mistakes, we can't cut Alex for at least 3 years.  I'm not sold a couple drives in preseason would've made a difference, this is a systemic problem with the NFL in shortening the offseason and we got the ass end if this time having to install a new starting QB.

 

How about this, Jay doesn't nit consistently maximize talent nor does he consistently have talent to maximize.  Does anyone with a straight face think a different coach wins that game with our injuries in offend last night?

Gruden benching Norman was the first instance of him actually making any change whatsoever in 5 years, and it's apparently because they got into an argument about something or other. 

 

Gruden ripping Griffin was more retaliatory because Griffin was being a **** and throwing his teammates under the bus, and taking no responsibility. 

 

Gruden does not hold his team or coaches accountable for mistakes.  The way you know that is because they same players are allowed to make the same mistakes. If somebody was really fearful for their job, that wouldn't happen, or if they couldn't be coached, you find another player to try out, OR you don't put the player in the position to make the same mistake.  Any of the options works, Gruden does none of them. 

 

Smith played like stale dead yak ass yesterday.  He hasn't played that badly in YEARS.  And YEARS.  Is there a coincidence that he never had those types of games under Reid, and does under Gruden?  I don't think so.  One is a great coach and offensive mind, the other is Jay Gruden. 

 

Would a few more drives in preseason have helped?  Maybe.  We'll never know because Gruden is allergic to trying new things and self scouting.

 

And yeah, there are plenty of coaches out there who could have maximized the talent they had and, at the very least, had the team prepared to put in a better effort than they did. Win or lose, who knows. I didn't expect a win, and I'm not judging Gruden on losing to New Orleans in the dome.  That's a tough assignment no matter what.   But better, more prepared effort?  Yeah, I'd say there are 20 other coaches who prepare their team better on a consistent basis.

 

I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts if Andy Reid was coaching that game, it's a 3 point game in the 4th quarter.  He might blow it with clock management, but he'd have his team ready, would be able to exploit the Saints defense, would have Alex ready, and it would be a competitive game.   

 

Gruden's teams no-show about 1/4 of the time. This year it's half the time. That's on preparation.  That's on the coach.

 

And please stop with the injury excuse.  The saints lost their best defender, at least best secondary guy in the second drive, and didn't miss a beat.  This is the NFL.  Players get hurt.  It happens.  The Eagles lost their HOF LT, MVP QB, starting RB, and 2 or 3 defensive starters and won the super bowl last year.  The Rams lost both of their starting WRs in the game against Jacksonville.  They didn't stall offensively.  Last night wasn't the body bag game from 1990, and it wasn't even close to some of the games last year when they had zero healthy OL.  A few guys got hurt.  For a good coach, they figure out how to make sure you don't stall if a starter goes down. Again, it's preparation.

22 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Wake me up when the media stops ****footing around and asking hard questions.  

Anybody who says we're a tough media town is fooling themselves. 

 

Jay would have been roasted alive with a good Bearnaise sauce on the side for that performance by the NY media. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am in the give Jay a season camp versus living and dying with each game.  And Bruce is the #1 issue with this team not Jay.

 

But to play along, if they went in another direction and Alex doesn't play great.  I'd think they'd do like they did with Jason Campbell, RG3, etc -- play with a narrative that the next HC will fix it and try to sell that.  They have too much money and ego invested in the Alex experiment IMO not to scapegoat Jay if it doesn't go right.

 

So in that case, I think its DeFilippo.  RPO guy-worked with Alex's old offensive coordinator.  He knows the Eagles and just beat him.  I can see Dan fall in love with the narrative, its up his alley, but just doing some research I spotted this article.  And based on this, doubt it. 

This is why I like you, @Skinsinparadise  This is extremely well thought out.

 

I agree (almost) completely.  I'm going to assume the 'Skins bounce back and either are extremely competitive or beat the Panthers.  Because that's the trend.  Then they'll lose to Dallas, beat NYG, lose to Atlanta to get to 4-4.  At that point, eh, you might as well keep doing what you're doing.

 

However, in the instance that the Saints game was the straw that broke the camel's back, and they no-show again for Carolina and Dallas, you might as well make the move, almost as a favor to Jay.  If he's not coming back next year, there's no real reason to string him along. 

 

That said, and this is not a new position for me, if Bruce stays, I don't really see any point in firing Jay, because "meh to bad" Jay is as good as I expect from Bruce.  Chances are better he picks up an idiot than he picks a gem.

 

Your guess of DeFilippo is really good.  My assumption is it would be somebody off of the Reid tree.  Which is somewhat interesting given that Jay is actually off of the Reid tree through brother Jon.

 

I also think that since it's going to be REALLY hard to get out of Alex's contract, they have to figure out how to maximize his production.  Scapegoat Jay or not, it's just good business to find out how to maximize the assets you have. 

[NoCalMike]

Gruden the head coach is not necessarily a knock on Gruden the O-coordinator. The problem is not all coordinators are cut out to be head coaches. 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is why I like you, @Skinsinparadise  This is extremely well thought out.

 

I agree (almost) completely.  I'm going to assume the 'Skins bounce back and either are extremely competitive or beat the Panthers.  Because that's the trend.  Then they'll lose to Dallas, beat NYG, lose to Atlanta to get to 4-4.  At that point, eh, you might as well keep doing what you're doing.

 

However, in the instance that the Saints game was the straw that broke the camel's back, and they no-show again for Carolina and Dallas, you might as well make the move, almost as a favor to Jay.  If he's not coming back next year, there's no real reason to string him along. 

 

That said, and this is not a new position for me, if Bruce stays, I don't really see any point in firing Jay, because "meh to bad" Jay is as good as I expect from Bruce.  Chances are better he picks up an idiot than he picks a gem.

 

Your guess of DeFilippo is really good.  My assumption is it would be somebody off of the Reid tree.  Which is somewhat interesting given that Jay is actually off of the Reid tree through brother Jon.

 

I also think that since it's going to be REALLY hard to get out of Alex's contract, they have to figure out how to maximize his production.  Scapegoat Jay or not, it's just good business to find out how to maximize the assets you have. 

 

Thanks.  Yeah I am with you that Bruce has to go.  I am also with you that if Bruce is replaced with a real GM, that GM should pick the coach.  I'd feel that way regardless of who the coach is because that's just how I think good teams are run.

 

My analogy to yours on Jay is this.  On the Alex thread, I've consistently said Kirk > Alex.  But to judge I think the whole season needs to play out.  As for Jay as you know I mostly like what he has done.  He's not the perfect coach.  But I am sick of mediocrity from the frame work of both the FO and the coaching.  More so on the FO side.  If that doesn't change this season then I get the need to try something new.  But nothing will change with the same leadership at the top.

 

The fact that multiple beat guys have said they gloated in that building about what a great roster they built coupled with their low key FA season -- if this season doesn't go well, jobs deserved to be lost or more specifically Bruce's job.  However, I can't land that its mediocre just yet.  Too early to tell. 

 

But yeah if we go there it seems so obvious knowing Dan's history we got two likely scenarios -- if he's involved with this.

 

A.  Some young RPO guy, Defillipp seems to be the sexiest pick.  40 years old.  Up and comer.   They can resell the Alex Smith narrative just like they tried to do with Zorn as to Campbell and Jay as to RG3.

 

B.  Some big name veteran.  The most obvious to me is Nick Saban.  You sell the Alabama guys in house -- Saban knows the college guys (like Jimmy Johnson when he left the U), making the draft coming up sexier and granb more Alabama guys in the draft.

 

Now whether either guy would take or want the job is another story.  But with people not showing up to games and there being enthusiasm issues with the fan base -- I think Dan is boxed in to pursue a coach with a sexy narrative.

 

[bird_1972]

Pack this guys bags. He needs to hit the bricks after the season.

 

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But yeah if we go there it seems so obvious knowing Dan's history we got two likely scenarios -- if he's involved with this.

 

A.  Some young RPO guy, Defillipp seems to be the sexiest pick.  40 years old.  Up and comer.   They can resell the Alex Smith narrative just like they tried to do with Zorn as to Campbell and Jay as to RG3.

 

B.  Some big name veteran.  The most obvious to me is Nick Saban.  You sell the Alabama guys in house -- Saban knows the college guys (like Jimmy Johnson when he left the U), making the draft coming up sexier and granb more Alabama guys in the draft.

 

Now whether either guy would take or want the job is another story.  But with people not showing up to games and there being enthusiasm issues with the fan base -- I think Dan is boxed in to pursue a coach with a sexy narrative.

 

 

^^^THIS is why we can't have nice things. Exactly why this team has sucked ever since Snyder bought it.

[JoggingGod]

DeFlippo is a great option as HC. What is the issue there lol

[ThomasRoane]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Now whether either guy would take or want the job is another story.  But with people not showing up to games and there being enthusiasm issues with the fan base -- I think Dan is boxed in to pursue a coach with a sexy narrative.

 

 

Let's be honest.  Dan can't even attract a decent defensive coordinator.  Dan hasn't fired Jay yet because no smart, talented coach would work for him.  That's how we ended up with Jay in the first place.  Jay's alright but it's obvious that he's not an upper tier coach.  He's about average and most likely will be the OC for his brother in Vegas next season.  And he'll be much happier!

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Let's be honest.  Dan can't even attract a decent defensive coordinator.  Dan hasn't fired Jay yet because no smart, talented coach would work for him.  That's how we ended up with Jay in the first place.  Jay's alright but it's obvious that he's not an upper tier coach.  He's about average and most likely will be the OC for his brother in Vegas next season.  And he'll be much happier!

 

Agree on him being happier part.  And I agree about Dan struggling to find people who'd want to work there. I think his only shot is to put Schaffer or Smith in charge and talk about backing off -- but even with that its a story that he's tried to sell before that he's hands off to be only proven later otherwise.

 

I recall Laconfora's reporting in 2016 that top up and coming executives weren't interested in going to the Redskins because of Bruce's presence and also the team was cheap compared to others in what they were willing to pay -- I presume the cheap part was a Bruce thing because Dan for his faults is usually willing to pay to get his man.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Gruden does not hold his team or coaches accountable for mistakes.  The way you know that is because they same players are allowed to make the same mistakes. If somebody was really fearful for their job, that wouldn't happen, or if they couldn't be coached, you find another player to try out, OR you don't put the player in the position to make the same mistake.  Any of the options works, Gruden does none of them. 

 

 

Maybe this is a good sign? 

 

Players make mistakes all the time. You can't just go and bench a guy every time he screws up...you'd run out of bullets in your gun and it's not going to help morale if you think you have to play perfectly (which is impossible). What I liked about Norman being benched is that it was a sign that Gruden won't tolerate the same guy messing up the same thing for the same reasons over and over again. 

 

I have kids...I've told them repeatedly that I won't get mad at them for making mistakes, but I'll be furious with them if they continue to make the same mistakes. Not to sound like the former QB, but I care more about them doing things the right way than the outcome. They could burn the house down, but if it happened due to an honest mistake I'd likely be less pissed than if they spill a drop of water doing something I've told them not to for the 1,000th time. 

 

So, my guess is that Norman freelances to make hero plays and Gruden is over it. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

19 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Let's be honest.  Dan can't even attract a decent defensive coordinator.  Dan hasn't fired Jay yet because no smart, talented coach would work for him.  That's how we ended up with Jay in the first place.  Jay's alright but it's obvious that he's not an upper tier coach.  He's about average and most likely will be the OC for his brother in Vegas next season.  And he'll be much happier!

 

I don't think we were the only team in on Jay Gruden, so I slightly disagree that he wasn't considered a promising coaching candidate back in 2014. I do agree that he's proven out to be average so far...there's not much to debate there. 

 

I think if we had the ability to identify smart, talented coaching candidates we'd be able to hire them. We just aren't really the franchise who is going to go outside the box and swing for the fences on a coaching hire. I don't know if it's by design, but all but one of Snyder's coaches has been defensible either in "they've won before" or "half the league was also after this guy" - Zorn being the exception where he hadn't proven **** and half the league wasn't even aware that he had become a coach after being the zany QB who threw to Steve Largent. 

[lavar1156]

The Giants DC is supposedly going to be a hot candidate. But I'd prefer an offensive guy.

[Warhead36]

I've been pro Gruden but i think its time to move on. This type of crap shouldn't be happening as often as it does in year 5. This is twice in four games now where we've completely no showed. I don't mind losing, its the NFL and you're gonna lose games, but at least freaking compete.

[Renegade7]

@Voice_of_Reason if we agree that our wr core is terrible then loses its starters, its not an injury excuse, its reality.  Regardless of how you feel about Jay you are over estimating this roster if you think anyone could keep this team within two scores last night.  Really gonna throw out Andy Reid and time management, ill talk to you later about this, you haven't calmed down yet. 

 

Our greatest fear of what would do this team in is slowly happening against a team on all cylinders in their house, y'all keep giving examples of teams WITH MORE TALENT THEN us and keep saying why we can't do that. You know why, we've been having this discussion all offseason, know its here and everyone brand new.

 

I'm done with this game, my concern is are we going to be healthy and focused for the next three games.  That will define the season for me, not this one.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, lavar1156 said:

The Giants DC is supposedly going to be a hot candidate. But I'd prefer an offensive guy.

 

surprised. Their defense to me is under achieving. 

[Burgold]

Right now, I see our strength and the most attractive part of our team being the D Line. Given that, if we decide for change I think I'd want a defensive guy who might get excited around the prospects of building around Allen, Payne, and Ionadis. We actually have a darn good front seven and if Dion Hamilton comes around and Harvey-Clemons continues to grow one that can be good for a long time.

 

We don't have a lot of pieces to excite an up and coming offensive prodigy.

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Anybody who says we're a tough media town is fooling themselves. 

 

Jay would have been roasted alive with a good Bearnaise sauce on the side for that performance by the NY media. 

 

We've got some media personalities that think they're tough.

 

I just would want to know where he thinks he fell short on preparing this team over the past two weeks in order to have a performance like that.  Like, specifics.  

[Chachie]

I like Jay and I think the players like Jay. Maybe that's the problem. 

 

1. We still lose at night. (Saints)

2. We still lose to teams we're supposed to be better than. (Colts.)

3. I guarantee at season's end, we'll still have a losing record against NFCE opponents.

 

I like Jay. The season is young. Personally, I didn't think we'd beat New Orleans anyway so the score doesn't matter. We're still 2-2 like we knew we would be.

 

But when the regular season is over and we're 7-9 (or 6-10, or...) the front office has to fire Jay Gruden. 

 

 

 

...And quit their jobs, and put the team up for sale. And apologize. And GTFO of my city.

 

[kingdaddy]

7 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Listen to yourself, Crowder is our slot receiver.  As bad as Alex was playing, he was missing wide open people or getting hit before going through his Reeds.  At what point do we just admit the Saints defense came to play and we didn't have the talent to counter? 

 

Has Jay said "we need to target Reed more?". I haven't seen it, maybe because he is calling plays for Reed and Alex isn't getting it to him. It teams know hes our best receiver and trying to take him out the game.

 

In all seriousness, that offense last night was a skeleton crew with a QB play g as bad as we've seen in the last 20 years.  He coulda put a John Beck jersey on and i wouksnt of been able to tell the difference and y'all are mad about lack of adjustments?  The only adjustment that wouldve mattered in that case was benching him, which wouldve further guaranteed a lose and nothing more give hell get the job right back next week and we all know it. 

 

 

Pfft...im getting tired of trying to get across how little talent we have in that side of the ball compared to these teams people keep saying " look what they are doing, why can't we do that?".  Take the damn blinders off, yall know why we can't do that because we don't have the talent to.  Jay is not perfect but he can't make up for that, no team can. 

 

Not one coach coulda came in here and beat the saints in New Orleans with our roster last night, be real. LA went into hyper mode acquiring talent on offense and defense and people have the nerve to ask why Jays offense doesn't look like that?  The FO McVay has in LA is incomparable to our, full stop.  Reid has owned us twice on QBs twice now, is that Jays fault?

He had 2 weeks to prepare and got blown out of the building in the first half. Again had to settle for a field goal inside the 10 yard line with 1st and goal early in the game...blame all the players if you want, I blame JG and am tired of watching prime time losses on his watch. He's a good guy but not a good head coach. I hope he turns it around because this division won't get any weaker and if be can't win the division this year then his fate will be sealed for sure.

[skins island connection]

5 hours ago, VeroViper said:

I've always believed that most of these coaches know what their doing. There are a few brilliant coaches in the league(ie Belichick/McVay) and on the opposite end of the spectrum you will occasionally find a guy that's actually in over his head(ie Spurrier/Zorn). But for the most part these guys know what the hell they're doing. It comes down to talent. At least 90% of head coach firing are actually the GM's fault IMO. It is very difficult to win if you don't have the horses. 

 

 Yes, but to a degree; Gruden has an idea on what he's doing, its just that it isn't working. He is not HC or play calling material. We've all seen games where the camera pans to him and he looks lost at times, other times he struggles to get the play in to the QB in a timely manner, which leads to time-outs wasted or crappy plays that cater right into opponent's hands.

 

Certain coaches have that "it" where they can take decent to mediocre talent and make them very competitive. Jay doesn't, plain and simple. He's not creative enough, he never adjusts things at halftime, it almost seems as if opponents know whats coming up, and that's probably by the plays and line-ups they're in which tips off defenses.

 

Look at how McVay turned around a pitiful Rams team and made them a formidable team.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, great coaches make average players great. Great players don't make an average coach great, they make him lucky. Some question the talent on this team, and there is good talent, its just not used properly in game planning, and that falls directly on Gruden.