General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[The Evil Genius]

4 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Criminals don't clear any hurdles or obey the laws when they want guns. They just go get them.

 

Who follows the rules and jumps over the hurdles with obtaining guns? The law abiding citizen.

 

Who commits these terrible mass shooting crimes?

 

Criminals.

 

 

 

Didn't the shooter yesterday follow the law in obtaining the Ar15?

 

So which one is he? A law abiding person committing a crime? Or a criminal not following the law and obtaining the gun illegally? If it's the former, then it just invalidated your own argument.

[Commander PK]

26 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Whats the issue then with making it so people who have committed a violent crime cant buy a gun. Ever. Taking that right away from them (or losing that privilege) 

 

 

Definitely a need. 

 

I thought we were rehabilitating these people back to normal citizenship?  There is even a movement to give prisoners back the vote.  

 

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/prisoners-convicts-felons-inmates-right-to-vote-enfranchise-criminal-justice-voting-rights-213979

 

In any case, convicted violent felons already can’t buy guns legally.

 

https://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-can-a-convicted-felon-receive-firearm-rights/

 

 

[twa]

1 minute ago, Llevron said:

I almost want them to start arming high schools and see how many it takes for them to realize its a bad idea. 

 

Some schools teachers and staff have already been armed,both with public notice and w/o.

 

Haven't heard of any problems, nor it's impact as a deterrent(since the vast majority of schools never have mass shootings)

3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Didn't the shooter yesterday follow the law in obtaining the Ar15?

 

So which one is he? A law abiding person committing a crime? Or a criminal not following the law and obtaining the gun illegally? If it's the former, then it just invalidated your own argument.

 

Did you just invalidate background checks with yours? 

[crabbypatty]

54 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

What qualifies a trained professional in my eyes is not someone who knows how to aim and shoot a gun, not someone who knows how to load a gun, not even the most hardcore gun enthusiast that knows the inner workings of an AR-15 like the back of his hand, but someone who has received the requisite emotional and psychological training necessary to deal with an active shooter in real time. Preferably even someone that has experience dealing with real life situations. Go to as many gun classes as you want, spend as much time as you want at a shooting range, but there is NOTHING they can teach any of us that could prepare us to handle a situation like that. Law enforcement and members of the military don't go to gun classes to mentally prepare for dealing with an active shooter. 

 

Do you know what the only problem with that line of thinking is? The only way to get experience in situations like that is to actually BE in them. There are way more people who have that experience negatively (victims) than trained military and police combined. Look at it this way. I see the argument "if banning saves just one life it's worth it" bandied about as a justification for ban/confiscation. Is letting people use their constitutionally protected right to protect themselves to "save a life or lives" worth it?

Nobody is really prepared to be in a situation like a carjacking or kidnapping or mass shooting, but training does in fact help. Even if it's just ccw at your local gun store it helps. I say as a 2x combat vet who has been to tons of range time/cqb/urban/vehicle mounted training while I was in the Army. Being able to reflexively do something when your first reaction is to blink in confusion helps. It absolutely does. If you have good training and are confident and well rehearsed, you'd be surprised what you do when you're on the spot in a life threatening situation. It's literally like you're on autopilot the first time or two.

You'd be surprised what people do in danger situations. yes some freeze, but some take action, whether it's shielding someone, running away, attacking the attacker, or what have you.

 

54 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

That's not a conclusion supported by actual data. Quite the opposite

 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evd4we/the-good-guy-with-a-gun-theory-debunked

 

Key para below on conclusions.

 

In a new working paper published on June 21 by the National Bureau of Economic Research, academics at Stanford Law School ran that data through four different statistical models—including one developed by Lott for More Guns, Less Crime—and came back with an unambiguous conclusion: states that made it easier for their citizens to go armed in public had higher levels of non-fatal violent crime than those states that restricted the right to carry. The exception was the narrower category of murder; there, the researchers determined that any effect on homicide rates by expanded gun-carry policies is statistically insignificant.

 

Does that paper differentiate between suicides, murders, self defense, ND/AD, etc?

 

I saw a report where WV's gun violence rate went up after the passing of constitutional carry in 2016, but it did not specify what was what, just lumped them all together.

[AsburySkinsFan]

8 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Criminals don't clear any hurdles or obey the laws when they want guns. They just go get them.

 

Who follows the rules and jumps over the hurdles with obtaining guns? The law abiding citizens.

 

Cruz was a law abiding citizen right up until the moment he murdered 17 people. He bought his weapons totally legally. 

 

The rest of your post is nothing more than NRA mythological BS and not worth responding to. You would rather my kid die in a fire fight than risk turning in your guns, all because you want the ability to revolt against a government that has nuclear weapons.

You live in an NRA fantasyland.

It’s time to wake up and well past time to grow up.

[Bang]

18 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Criminals don't clear any hurdles or obey the laws when they want guns. They just go get them.

 

 

 

Say,. where do they "go get them"?

Do they have elves who make them and deliver them at night while they dream of sugarplums?

Do they make them in their basements with their Junya Gangsta gun making kits?

Just how DO gangsters and criminals just GO GET brand new guns?

Do they buy them from unscrupulous dealers who utilize loopholes in the law to sell guns to cash paying criminals? 

Do they exploit laws purposely made to allow easier and easier access to firearms despite warning signs? 

Do they just wish real real real ****ing hard?

 

 

Sorry, nothing personal, but i hate this line of thinking. It is ignorance solidified, it is the most lazy and purposefully stupid thinking on this issue that there is. 

 

They don't just 'go get one'. There isn't any ****ing gun trees that just drop them on the ground. Guns from factory to purchase are highly regulated, and meticulously tracked. Until the unscrupulous gun seller decides that today at this show he's a private seller, and then he can sell anything he wants to anyone he wants no questions asked.
And guess what? Crooks pay CASH. Imagine that! To the gun industry, criminals are CUSTOMERS, and good ones at that. Victims are ADVERTISING. Dead kids = CHA CHING! Ring that register!

 

"They just go get one". 

Holy ****ing hell, no wonder we can't seem to  get a handle on this problem. we can't even clear our heads to think of step two in the 'how did another murderer get a gun" part of the equation.

 

~Bang

Edited February 15, 2018 by Bang

[The Evil Genius]

5 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Did you just invalidate background checks with yours? 

 

No it demonstrates that relying on them solely is dumb.

[crabbypatty]

9 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Didn't the shooter yesterday follow the law in obtaining the Ar15?

 

So which one is he? A law abiding person committing a crime? Or a criminal not following the law and obtaining the gun illegally? If it's the former, then it just invalidated your own argument.

 

Then by your definition, wouldn't gun purchase laws be a "loophole"? since the guy obviously used the purchase laws to circumvent the law against killing other people..

If he had a universal background check beforehand would that have changed things? He wasn't a criminal until he was.. The guy obviously had devious plans in mind when he obeyed the law to get them.

[twa]

1 minute ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

No it demonstrates that relying on them solely is dumb.

 

I agree, just as relying on a gun ban is....or arming schools, or nutjobs good will

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, twa said:

 

I agree, just as relying on a gun ban is....or arming schools, or nutjobs good will

 

Here we agree. There are multiple things that need to be done to help prevent this. 

 

But lets just settle for nothing right? Cause thats what we are going to get. 

[bobandweave]

21 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Didn't the shooter yesterday follow the law in obtaining the Ar15?

 

So which one is he? A law abiding person committing a crime? Or a criminal not following the law and obtaining the gun illegally? If it's the former, then it just invalidated your own argument.

 

So because one guy got a gun legal this time it means what? That the laws are wrong? That all mass shooters follow the law? Come on man. Why look for a perfect solution all the damn time when one doesn't exist? Criminals don't care at all about laws and will break them. Will all criminals always break all of the laws? No. The problem with laws is that criminals break them, honest people do not.  

 

Why don't you go back and quote where I said put the damn guns in the damn schools and the damn school shootings stop. 

 

How many police stations do you hear about mass murders happening?

 

I wonder why that is?

 

Do you think that maybe since the criminals know that cops have guns its not a good place for some sicko to go try and kill a bunch of people? 

 

Maybe just maybe it's time to do something radical that's not being done. You know and stop looking for the useless morons writing laws to fix everything when they never do? 

 

Put the guns in the schools and protect the students. Not doing that is Irresponsible

 

14 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Cruz was a law abiding citizen right up until the moment he murdered 17 people. He bought his weapons totally legally. 

 

The rest of your post is nothing more than NRA mythological BS and not worth responding to. You would rather my kid die in a fire fight than risk turning in your guns, all because you want the ability to revolt against a government that has nuclear weapons.

You live in an NRA fantasyland.

It’s time to wake up and well past time to grow up.

 

Look Duke you don't know me. You must be a real arrogant jerk in real life.  

 

Am I supporting the NRA? No

Do I own any Guns? No

 

Does that stop you from spewing your hate filled garbage my way? Nope.

 

Go label yourself next time instead of trying to put me in your little boxes of hate.

 

I didn't speak to you directly when I posted and don't need you coming at me like that. I don't know you either but holy crap what a first impression, pass the puke bag. I have 5 children in schools how many do you have? GTFO of here with that BS and grow up your damn self

Edited February 15, 2018 by bobandweave

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well it’s official @bobandweaveis an NRA bot, and a tempermental one at that.

Edited February 15, 2018 by AsburySkinsFan

[MartinC]

16 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

 

Does that paper differentiate between suicides, murders, self defense, ND/AD, etc?

 

I saw a report where WV's gun violence rate went up after the passing of constitutional carry in 2016, but it did not specify what was what, just lumped them all together.

 

Yes, it specifically references murder/homicide and also looks at other violent crime offences as well.

[Larry]

2 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

Because you are literally 3 times more likely to die via handgun than by AR15 (homicide).

 

I really hope that that statistic is grossly inaccurate.  

 

Just my completely uninformed gut, pulling statistics out of the terminus of the gastrointestinal tract, but I would suspect that handguns outnumber AR-15s by 100 to 1.  Maybe 1,000 to 1.  If the ratio of deaths is only 3-1, then I think that's overwhelming support for the notion that they must immediately be banned (including all currently owned),

[bobandweave]

17 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

Say,. where do they "go get them"?

Do they have elves who make them and deliver them at night while they dream of sugarplums?

Do they make them in their basements with their Junya Gangsta gun making kits?

Just how DO gangsters get brand new guns?

Do they buy them from unscrupulous dealers who utilize loopholes in the law to sell guns to cash paying criminals? 

Do they exploit laws purposely made to allow easier and easier access to firearms despite warning signs? 

Do they just wish real real real ****ing hard?

 

 

Sorry, nothing personal, but i hate this line of thinking. It is ignorance solidified, it is the most lazy and purposefully stupid thinking on this issue that there is.

 

They don't just 'go get one'. There isn't any ****ing gun trees that just drop them on the ground. Guns from factory to purchase are highly regulated, and meticulously tracked. Until the unscrupulous gun seller decides that today at this show he's a private seller, and then he can sell anything he wants to anyone he wants no questions asked.

 

"They just go get one". 

Holy ****ing hell, no wonder we can't seem to  get a handle on this problem. we can't even clear our heads to think of step two in the 'how did another murderer get a gun" part of the equation.

 

~Bang

 

Bang go ask Criminals where they get them since you want to know. I don't care where they get them from they get them. News Flash not all criminals commit crimes every single moment of every single day they live. Some criminals do criminal things sometimes and are law abiding citizens other times. 

 

Fact is that while your wrapped way too tightly around the idea of gun trees and other nonsense the fact of the matter is that criminals who plan to commit crimes almost always figure out the easiest targets before committing a crime. 

 

If the goal for a criminal is to steal money not all criminals go into a bank to steal money? Why? I don't know but common sense says that banks are more protected then a run of the mill 711. Which is probably why convenience stores get robbed so much more often then a bank does

 

And if a goal is to kill people why don't criminals go into sporting events and try and kill there? At your average baseball game there are 40k people in the stands. Seems like a good target to go kill people at until you realize that cops are everywhere at sporting events and they have to slip past metal detectors to get at them. Which is probably why you don't hear about too many baseball game massacres.

 

But we do hear about shoot ups in schools a lot.  Why? My guess is because they aren't known to be protected. They aren't known to have a bunch of guns in them. You don't hear about police and metal detectors at your typical schools. 

 

My point about all of this isn't to get verbally attacked because I don't think like you or that other guy do but to ask why not try the opposite of looking to the idiots in government to fix anything. Those clowns don't fix anything at all. To me no law is going to stop a bullet. Again no law is going to stop bullets which means they aren't the answer. 

 

I have five kids in schools. My opinion over the administrators at the schools is these are responsible people. These are good people. They can take gun safety seriously in times of a mass shooter at the school. Now if your opinion of school administrators is so low then maybe you disagree. Maybe you think the people running your schools are idiots and make the school at risk if a guns there. I don't think that. If you do sorry you must have some pretty awful schools your children go to. 

 

Doing the same thing, talking about gun round ups and tighter controls on guns don't mean or do anything. It's time that things were done that can have a good impact on this problem. Again your laws are going to fall on deaf ears of the criminals. And your laws aren't stopping bullets either. Time to try something that actually would work. You got to start thinking like a criminal and criminals respect guns

[The Evil Genius]

Ita not just one guy though... as of 2015, 82% of mass shooters in the previous 3 decades had legally obtained guns.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/more-80-percent-guns-used-mass-shootings-obtained-legally-n474441
 

Current legislation (and education) are woefully inadequate. 

 

Edit...there is a soild reason why that is too..but requires admission of guilt for some.

Edited February 15, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[MartinC]

23 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

 

Look Duke you don't know me. You must be a real arrogant jerk in real life.  

 

 

General comment

 

Feel free to attack a posters view point, logic or ideas. You are not allowed to attack him/her personally. There is a difference.

 

This is an emotive topic and people generally have done a good job in sticking to the former not the later. Lets not get away from that.

[bobandweave]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

General comment

 

Feel free to attack a posters view point, logic or ideas. You are not allowed to attack him/her personally. There is a difference.

 

This is an emotive topic and people generally have done a good job in sticking to the former not the later. Lets not get away from that.

 

Roger that I am sorry for that

[Spaceman Spiff]

6 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Bang go ask Criminals where they get them since you want to know. I don't care where they get them from they get them. News Flash not all criminals commit crimes every single moment of every single day they live. Some criminals do criminal things sometimes and are law abiding citizens other times. 

 

Fact is that while your wrapped way too tightly around the idea of gun trees and other nonsense the fact of the matter is that criminals who plan to commit crimes almost always figure out the easiest targets before committing a crime. 

 

If the goal for a criminal is to steal money not all criminals go into a bank to steal money? Why? I don't know but common sense says that banks are more protected then a run of the mill 711. Which is probably why convenience stores get robbed so much more often then a bank does

 

And if a goal is to kill people why don't criminals go into sporting events and try and kill there? At your average baseball game there are 40k people in the stands. Seems like a good target to go kill people at until you realize that cops are everywhere at sporting events and they have to slip past metal detectors to get at them. Which is probably why you don't hear about too many baseball game massacres.

 

But we do hear about shoot ups in schools a lot.  Why? My guess is because they aren't known to be protected. They aren't known to have a bunch of guns in them. You don't hear about police and metal detectors at your typical schools. 

 

My point about all of this isn't to get verbally attacked because I don't think like you or that other guy do but to ask why not try the opposite of looking to the idiots in government to fix anything. Those clowns don't fix anything at all. To me no law is going to stop a bullet. Again no law is going to stop bullets which means they aren't the answer. 

 

I have five kids in schools. My opinion over the administrators at the schools is these are responsible people. These are good people. They can take gun safety seriously in times of a mass shooter at the school. Now if your opinion of school administrators is so low then maybe you disagree. Maybe you think the people running your schools are idiots and make the school at risk if a guns there. I don't think that. If you do sorry you must have some pretty awful schools your children go to. 

 

Doing the same thing, talking about gun round ups and tighter controls on guns don't mean or do anything. It's time that things were done that can have a good impact on this problem. Again your laws are going to fall on deaf ears of the criminals. And your laws aren't stopping bullets either. Time to try something that actually would work. You got to start thinking like a criminal and criminals respect guns

 

 

Cops aren't everywhere at baseball games.  Or football games.  There's a few, but not enough to protect 40k people.  

 

I'm not sure about a dick measuring contest between school administrators makes a good point here, either.  

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, bobandweave said:

 

Roger that I am sorry for that

 

Noted :-)

 

Let's all play nice.

[Popeman38]

23 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I really hope that that statistic is grossly inaccurate.  

 

Just my completely uninformed gut, pulling statistics out of the terminus of the gastrointestinal tract, but I would suspect that handguns outnumber AR-15s by 100 to 1.  Maybe 1,000 to 1.  If the ratio of deaths is only 3-1, then I think that's overwhelming support for the notion that they must immediately be banned (including all currently owned),

Handguns vs all other guns is > 3 - 1. 

[Berggy9598]

50 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

Do you know what the only problem with that line of thinking is? The only way to get experience in situations like that is to actually BE in them. There are way more people who have that experience negatively (victims) than trained military and police combined. Look at it this way. I see the argument "if banning saves just one life it's worth it" bandied about as a justification for ban/confiscation. Is letting people use their constitutionally protected right to protect themselves to "save a life or lives" worth it?

Nobody is really prepared to be in a situation like a carjacking or kidnapping or mass shooting, but training does in fact help. Even if it's just ccw at your local gun store it helps. I say as a 2x combat vet who has been to tons of range time/cqb/urban/vehicle mounted training while I was in the Army. Being able to reflexively do something when your first reaction is to blink in confusion helps. It absolutely does. If you have good training and are confident and well rehearsed, you'd be surprised what you do when you're on the spot in a life threatening situation. It's literally like you're on autopilot the first time or two.

You'd be surprised what people do in danger situations. yes some freeze, but some take action, whether it's shielding someone, running away, attacking the attacker, or what have you.

 

 

Does that paper differentiate between suicides, murders, self defense, ND/AD, etc?

 

I saw a report where WV's gun violence rate went up after the passing of constitutional carry in 2016, but it did not specify what was what, just lumped them all together.

There could very well be civilians that have the wherewithal to handle an active shooter, but that's not something I'd count on. My uncle was a combat pilot and my cousin was in an elite counter terror unit in the Israeli army. People like that (and yourself) are just wired differently and you guys are an exception, not the norm. Sure it's best to get as much training as possible as a civilian but I just don't believe your average person walking the streets has what it takes mentally and psychologically to handle this kind of situation with a deranged individual, let alone a kid that had enough wits about him to try to escape by walking out the front door with the rest of the students. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Berggy9598

[Llevron]

What are the stats on how often people harm themselves or their loved ones with guns more than they protect themselves? Like in home accidental shootings? 

 

Would something like that even be relevant in this discussion? 

[LD0506]

At the end of the day this is till mainly about money, not some CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS (which always seem to be capitalized when I hear them) or anyone defending themselves or a good guy with a gun shooting the bad guy with a gun or pretty much any of the rest of the rhetoric. This is about money and the greedheads that hunger for it. For every dollar spent on actual firearms there are a brazilian more that go for targets, ammo, laser sights, holsters, stickers, camo, yadda yadda yadda. We're talking about BIG business here, and an awful lot of it is ancillary but utterly depends on razzin' up the crowd to get gun(s). 17 more people shot in a school is nothing more than overhead, and acceptable overhead at that. Capitalism in its purest form.

[Corcaigh]

 

I saw an estimate that "military style" semi-automatic rifles represent less than 1.5% of total owned guns. They appear to be the weapon of choice for school shooters. that said, the VT killer created mayhem with handguns.