AsburySkinsFan Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Painkiller said: With that said, is it logical to assume their intent was that Joe/Jane Citizen should NOT be allowed to keep and bear arms except in the context of the militia? No militia...no arms? I don’t think so Hehehe @stevemcqueen1 says that the Founding Fathers understood the people and the militia to be one and the same, and then you try to divide what was one and the same. It really is quite laughable. The whole reason the the NRA ignores thd militia requirement is that once the militia is understood as being foundational to the 2nd Amendment then the argument for individual gun ownership right outside of a militia requirement is lost since we have no need for a militia because we have a standing army. The world has changed, we no longer own people, we no longer require citizen militias. Edited February 16, 2018 by AsburySkinsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of a bunch of high school students. A sad and shameful time to be an American. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, tshile said: Right but the problem is (the belief that) you'd always vote for more control. I just think it's counter productive. You're the slippery slope. I Slippery slope? We have been down the slippery slope and it’s so far behind us you can’t even see it in the distance. I don’t get a vote. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, twa said: Change is already happening, many states are arming schools not the change ya wanted? No. It’s absolutely ridiculous. With a very large cherry on top. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: We formed a more traditional military because we were getting our *** kicked in War of 1812 and the militia idea evolved into the national guard (organized militia) and pool the government has to pick from via the draft (unorganized militia). We're better off with an armed civilian population to act as a deterrent from invasion; like the two oceans, Russia's winters, and China's ridiculous population total. I don't think allowing people to have weapons like AR-15s is necessary for that, though, I don't believe that's what second amendment was meant for. We have the most powerful and advanced conventional military in the world by a considerable margin. We have an apocalyptic nuclear arsenal and global strike capability. Our Navy is exponentially more powerful than our nearest competitor. We have a network of alliances and bases all over the globe, strategically hemming in our chief rivals. We have some of the best and highest capacity intelligence agencies in the world. We are the true monopolar military power of Earth. We have professional law enforcement agencies in every part of our country. We do not need millions of civilian Rambos to be armed in order to maintain our national security and civil defense. The utterly insane over-armament of the civilian population of this country has made every citizens much, much less secure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Just now, MartinC said: No. It’s absolutely ridiculous. With a very large cherry on top. That there seems a need certainly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Just now, stevemcqueen1 said: We have the most powerful and advanced conventional military in the world by a considerable margin. We have an apocalyptic nuclear arsenal and global strike capability. Our Navy is exponentially more powerful than our nearest competitor. We have a network of alliances and bases all over the globe, strategically hemming in our chief rivals. We have some of the best and highest capacity intelligence agencies in the world. We are the true monopolar military power of Earth. We have professional law enforcement agencies in every part of our country. yet we we have dickwads shooting up schools, forgot to arm them did we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Can anyone with a military or law enforcement background shed some light on the psychological aspect of training to deal with a real life situation involving an active shooter? Is there any way a civilian gun class can prepare someone mentally to deal with these kind of situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said: We have the most powerful and advanced conventional military in the world by a considerable margin. We have an apocalyptic nuclear arsenal and global strike capability. Our Navy is exponentially more powerful than our nearest competitor. We have a network of alliances and bases all over the globe, strategically hemming in our chief rivals. We have some of the best and highest capacity intelligence agencies in the world. We are the true monopolar military power of Earth. We have professional law enforcement agencies in every part of our country. We do not need millions of civilian Rambos to be armed in order to maintain our national security and civil defense. The utterly insane over-armament of the civilian population of this country has made every citizens much, much less secure. You're overthinking it and missing the historical aspect that there hasn't been a single nation to stay a superpower forever. The militias is a backup plan now, like I said its the national guard and the draft now. Saying civilians already being armed in some form doesn't equal supporting Rambos all over the place. We could ban everything except pistols, shotguns, and single-shot rifles and that'd be fine, we shouldn't go further then that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 minute ago, twa said: That there seems a need certainly is. There is a need to make schools (and everywhere else) safer - on that we agree. When it comes to how to achieve that we part. If access to more guns made a place safer the United States of America would be the safest place on Earth. It’s demonstrably and unarguably not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, twa said: yet we we have dickwads shooting up schools, forgot to arm them did we? We wouldn't if we disarmed the civilian population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Just now, MartinC said: There is a need to make schools (and everywhere else) safer - on that we agree. When it comes to how to achieve that we part. If access to more guns made a place safer the United States of America would be the safest place on Earth. It’s demonstrably and unarguably not. I agree removing all guns would make us safer...and result in alt means such as killing by knives, bombs and poison or such. On the other hand the threat of destruction of attackers is fundamental here...as stevemcqueen pointed out. Just now, stevemcqueen1 said: We wouldn't if we disarmed the civilian population. Till we can convince them to do so do you object to the MAD defense? just want to see how stubborn ya are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: You're overthinking it and missing the historical aspect that there hasn't been a single nation to stay a superpower forever. The militias is a backup plan now, like I said its the national guard and the draft now. Saying civilians already being armed in some form doesn't equal supporting Rambos all over the place. We could ban everything except pistols, shotguns, and single-shot rifles and that'd be fine, we shouldn't go further then that. Perhaps, but if we're acknowledging the right to keep and bear arms is tied to militia service, then I don't see the need to protect handguns and minimally restrict their purchase given the danger they pose to society. I'll gladly take a national ban and buyback on every weapon except handguns, shotguns, and rifles with a greater than five or six round magazine capacity. It'd sure as **** be better and saner than what we've got now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, twa said: I agree removing all guns would make us safer...and result in alt means such as killing by knives, bombs and poison or such. On the other hand the threat of destruction of attackers is fundamental here...as stevemcqueen pointed out. The actual experience of the rest of the world is less guns means less loss of life. It seems people don’t kills as many people with knives, bombs and poison. The threat of destruction of attackers exists in other Countries as well. Terrorists attacked Glasgow airport with a fire bomb a few years back (no guns - they are very hard to get hold of in the UK but as you say bombs can be made). One of the attackers set himself on fire and attempted to run into the terminal. One of the passengers kicked him in the nuts. Simple yet surprisingly effective. No one died. Well apart from the guy who set himself on fire. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, twa said: Till we can convince them to do so do you object to the MAD defense? just want to see how stubborn ya are I don't accept the premise that sane, effective gun control is impossible for this country. And arming even more people would lead to more incidents of violence, it'd be utterly counterproductive. When your only tool for maintaining your security is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Just now, MartinC said: The actual experience of the rest of the world is less guns means less loss of life. It seems people don’t kills as many people with knives, bombs and poison. Aren't most other counties less productive than the US though? Just now, stevemcqueen1 said: When your only tool for maintaining your security is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail. My only tool isn't a hammer, but I don't leave it on the shelf and use a crescent wrench when a nail needs drove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, twa said: My only tool isn't a hammer, but I don't leave it on the shelf and use a crescent wrench when a nail needs drove. In this metaphor and hypothetical, everyone has been transformed into a nail because we've armed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 “A well regulated militia, being necessaryto the security of a free state, the right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed.” Solution: Everybody who owns a gun must join a well regulated militia. We have one of thos called the US Army, and it’s very necessary to the security of the state. Hell, you can bring your own weapon if you want. Just show up for basic training with your regulation haircut. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, twa said: Aren't most other counties less productive than the US though? Most are. The US is 5th as defined by GDP per hour worked - but at a rate that’s very similar to a whole host of others advanced democracies with far lower rates of homicide. Are you suggesting a high homicide rate and productivity have some correlation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Perhaps, but if we're acknowledging the right to keep and bear arms is tied to militia service, then I don't see the need to protect handguns and minimally restrict their purchase given the danger they pose to society. I'll gladly take a national ban and buyback on every weapon except handguns, shotguns, and rifles with a greater than five or six round magazine capacity. It'd sure as **** be better and saner than what we've got now. Depends, because I believe the point was for the government to quickly build a defensive force (when deemed truly necessary), it's easier if they are already armed (as a lot of them were when that made up a huge part of how we defended ourselves at the time). Limiting to handguns, shotguns, and single-shot rifles is the compromise we deserve, just will be insanely unpopular at first among easily half the country. I seriously doubt most will sell back their higher-level weapons to the government unless its a dollar amount that's just too stupid to turn down (I predict a lot of people will just hide them instead). I guess by banning the purchasing of their ammo will help, but it will take a long time for people run out of ammo. This could take up to a generation to get the desired affect because banning the higher level weapons won't make them magically disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 So we can use Army folk for teachers and school security?...sweet, but I prefer Marines. Just now, MartinC said: Most are. The US is 5th as defined by GDP per hour worked - but at a rate that’s very similar to a whole host of others advanced democracies with far lower rates of homicide. Are you suggesting a high homicide rate and productivity have some correlation? I'm suggesting other places are less driven....not that there is anything wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, MartinC said: Are you suggesting a high homicide rate and productivity have some correlation? I was gonna say, that seemed to be the implication, which was weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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