Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[TK]

12 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

I guess this would be wrong huh............

Don't care. That. Is. AWESOME. 

 

I'm ordering them for ES Staff to use instead of banning people.

[twa]

[Jumbo]

22 minutes ago, TK said:

Don't care. That. Is. AWESOME. 

 

I'm ordering them for ES Staff to use instead of banning people.

 

Some of the guys at UW have a drone club. I contribute ideas in the "death and destruction" category and it is a fun time.

 

 

 

OOn topic---

 

Not a Tim Kaine fan,  but he had a good oner: "Some people live in a bitter fantasy of the past and want to go back ..."

 

[elkabong82]

4 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I think people are taking it too literal.  I'm more talking about the overnight yanking of Confederate monuments, which not coincidentally, tends to coincide with some tragedy.  Confederate flag debates werent really a big deal prior to Charleston.  

 

Was there a thread on ES talking about the confederate flag prior to Charleston?  Or confederate statues prior to Charlottesvile?

 

Tragedies tend to spark action. All throughout history. 

 

Removing Confederate eye sores was already a growing trend, but the recent events have caused the pace to pick up considerably. 

 

Why are you sticking to this talking point though? This is a good thing and something that should have been done a long, long time ago (well, actually it should have never been alowed in the first place). 

[visionary]

 

[NoCalMike]

Sometimes when the tide turns on an issue, things tend to progress quickly 

[elkabong82]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

 

Absolutely right, and you don't see statues of Rommel anywhere in spite of all the work done to make him into a "good guy".

 

Lee, Jackson, et. al. do not deserve to be forgotten or disparaged, they did what they thought they ought to or had to, but people need the context to go along with the statues, and they don't get that in the least with what we have now, especially considering the actual circumstances of why those statues were erected in the first place.

 

I actually have more of an issue with removing/destroying monuments to the soldiers that fought and died, they didn't decide anything but their blood ran on the ground in rivers. But again, context.......

 

Disagree. Lee and Jackson and all others who chose to fight for the Confederacy of their own free will ALL deserve to be disparaged. They chose treason. They chose to contribute to killing Americans. Had Lee sided with the Union the war would have been over probably in under a year. Instead it continued on for 4 years with millions dead. Preserving the Union was the right choice, not siding with your state who seceded because they were mad at the election results. Each of those states that left committed treason, and did so over the BELIEF, not the action because it wasn't taken, but only the BELIEF that they wouldn't be allowed to enslave other human beings. Much of the rest of the civilized world at this time had already seen the light and banned slavery, so it's not like it was some insane, unprecedented notion that slavery was wrong. There were even some Founding fathers who took issue with it and knew eventually it would have to be outlawed in the US. 

 

No sympathy for Lee, Jackson, et. al. And there shouldn't be any monuments to confederate soldiers. Near all of them enlisted of their own volition. They were all traitors to the US, for reasons that went against what the US stands for, even though the action of banning slavery hadn't actually been done. It's one of the most disgraceful and darkest chapters in our history, there should be NO honoring the traitors at all. Only thing should be reminders in useums of their disgusting decision, its ramifications, to serve as stark reminders of their dangers should the past be forgotten. 

 

None of us think there should be statues/monuments to Nazis, whether it be leaders or soliders who were "just Germans fighting for their country." Same should apply to the Confederacy. It's time the entire country recognized them as traitors who caused the deaths of millions because they wanted to keep slaves. 

[SoulSkin]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

 

Monument Ave Richmond

 

Pretty amazing. It only makes sense to have that commission explore all options. We'll see where it goes. I'm sure most actual Richmonders support this. I'm a little prouder to be one myself after reading his updated stance. 

[Predicto]

2 hours ago, twa said:

 

 

lol  you pretend to think this is a legit argument 

 

after everything that has been discussed in the past couple of days

 

never change, twa, you are a troll's troll.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

30 minutes ago, SoulSkin said:

 

Pretty amazing. It only makes sense to have that commission explore all options. We'll see where it goes. I'm sure most actual Richmonders support this. I'm a little prouder to be one myself after reading his updated stance. 

 

This town has come a long way.

[Spearfeather]

 

 

Quote

 

Lexington VA 13 Dec - r 1866

My dear Genl

I have considered the questions in your letter of the 8th Inst: & am unable to advise as to the efficacy of the scheme proposed for the accomplishment of the object in view. That can be better determined by those more conversant with similar plans than I am.

As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated; my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; & of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour. All I think that can now be done, is to aid our noble & generous women in their efforts to protect the graves & mark the last resting places of those who have fallen, & wait for better times.

I am very glad to hear of your comfortable establishment in Baltimore & that Mrs. Rosser is with you. Please present to her my warm regards. It would give me great pleasure to meet you both anywhere, & especially at times of leisure in the mountains of Virginia; but such times look too distant for me to contemplate, much less for me now to make arrangements for -

Very truly yours,

                               R E Lee

 

 

 

 

http://wtvr.com/2017/04/28/why-monument-avenue-is-safe-as-cities-remove-civil-war-statues/

 

Quote

 

Our monuments are a rock-solid part of Richmond's $1.7 billion dollar tourism industry.

We have some of the oldest Confederate monuments, and the most prized.

The whole avenue is a national historic landmark. The U.S. Park Service says "Monument Avenue is the nation's only grand residential boulevard with monuments of its scale surviving almost unaltered to present day."

 

 

Quote

 

(France also built and shipped us the Lee monument, much like the Statue of Liberty. In fact, Gen. Lee, was first erected there.)

It should be noted that the placement of the Lee monument, our oldest, was debated from the very start, almost exactly as we're doing today.

 

 

 

Quote

 

These monuments were built on donated land with privately-raised money, and then eventually turned over to the city.

Except for Lee, who is owned and maintained by the state.

That means everyone in Virginia owns it. And everyone in Richmond owns the rest of them.

Plus, there's a thin but still significant layer of protection that comes with our avenue's unique - yes, unique - national historic designation.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Spearfeather

[Warhead36]

I like the idea of replacing confederate statutes with important heroic African American(or other minority)heroes. Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglas, etc.

 

Counter hate with love.

[twa]

Just now, Predicto said:

 

 

lol  you pretend to think this is a legit argument 

 

after everything that has been discussed in the past couple of days

 

never change, twa, you are a troll's troll.  

 

Once a Klansman always a Klansman.

 

Somethings don't wash off.

Ya can rip down your flag and reform though....right?

[Destino]

It's no where near the same thing but former klan is still too much of an association in today's climate.  I respect he changed but I'd still rather not deal with public spaces tied to the klan in anyway.  CNN was loaded with former members of hate groups today and it was a bit nauseating.  

 

We can maybe look into that after we take every confederate participation trophy down.  Priorities ya'll.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by visionary

[Warhead36]

Rename everything named after a confederate. No more cowtowing to losers.

[PokerPacker]

I think we need to be able to separate the person from the side the fought on.  Robert E. Lee, specifically, I do not think of as someone fighting for slavery and division, but fighting for his family and friends.  They were in the south and it would be rather difficult to fight against your own family.

 

It seems many people are drawing parallels to NAZI Germany and Hitler.  I'll accept the NAZI analogy, but not Hitler.  You cannot separate Hitler or Goebbels and the like from what NAZI Germany as they were the creators of that terror.  A better parallel, in my opinion, would be The Desert Fox; General Erwin Rommel.

[Sticksboi05]

41 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

I think we need to be able to separate the person from the side the fought on.  Robert E. Lee, specifically, I do not think of as someone fighting for slavery and division, but fighting for his family and friends.  They were in the south and it would be rather difficult to fight against your own family.

 

It seems many people are drawing parallels to NAZI Germany and Hitler.  I'll accept the NAZI analogy, but not Hitler.  You cannot separate Hitler or Goebbels and the like from what NAZI Germany as they were the creators of that terror.  A better parallel, in my opinion, would be The Desert Fox; General Erwin Rommel.

 

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

 

 

11 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I think people are taking it too literal.  I'm more talking about the overnight yanking of Confederate monuments, which not coincidentally, tends to coincide with some tragedy.  Confederate flag debates werent really a big deal prior to Charleston.  

 

Was there a thread on ES talking about the confederate flag prior to Charleston?  Or confederate statues prior to Charlottesvile?

 

Just because you were living under a rock doesn't mean we all were...these debates have been going on for years.

[PokerPacker]

44 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

I will not pretend to be an expert on the subject of Lee, and would be open to another interpretation of him.  However I would note that just preceding the quote you've supplied, he writes "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages."  He also seems to be relying heavily on God in much of his philosophy as he delves further into that after the portion you quoted.  Not sure how much of that might be an attempt at justification, pandering to a particular audience, or just being misguided.

[LD0506]

 

[No Excuses]

7 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

I will not pretend to be an expert on the subject of Lee, and would be open to another interpretation of him.  However I would note that just preceding the quote you've supplied, he writes "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages."  He also seems to be relying heavily on God in much of his philosophy as he delves further into that after the portion you quoted.  Not sure how much of that might be an attempt at justification, pandering to a particular audience, or just being misguided.

 

That blacks were better off as slaves and God would resolve the issue of slavery was a common defense of slavery in the South. 

 

Churches in the South have a deep rooted history of racism. The Southern Baptist Church wouldn't even take up a resolution condemning the alt-right as recently as last year. They only did so after word leaked to the media and they received heavy criticism. I wager that the SBC is still chalk full of closeted racists. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

12 hours ago, twa said:

 

Once a Klansman always a Klansman.

 

Somethings don't wash off.

Which passage of the Bible does that come from? 

[SkinsHokieFan]

If folks want statues to traitors to remain, have a white flag next to them.

 

I would be all for that compromise 

 

https://savingplaces.org/press-center/media-resources/national-trust-statement-on-confederate-memorials#.WZWba1F942z

Quote

 

In recent months, many communities have been vigorously debating anew the impact, meaning, and propriety of Confederate memorials and symbols in the public space. We have received questions from across the political spectrum about our stance on this.

 

At the National Trust, we believe that historic preservation requires taking our history seriously. We have an obligation to confront the complex and difficult chapters of our past, and to recognize the many ways that our understanding, and characterization, of our shared American story continues to shape our present and future.

 

That goes for the Civil War, our nation’s bloodiest and most divisive conflict, as well. There are currently hundreds of monuments to the Confederate cause in America. They exist in 31 states, including far-flung places such as Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Arizona, and Montana. Schools and streets all over America bear Confederate names.

 

While some of these monuments were erected shortly after the war by grieving Southern families to honor the valor of fallen leaders and loved ones, many more were put in place for a more troubling purpose. Decades after the war, advocates of the Lost Cause erected these monuments all over the country to vindicate the Confederacy at the bar of history, erase the central issues of slavery and emancipation from our understanding of the war, and reaffirm a system of state-sanctioned white supremacy.

 

Put simply, the erection of these Confederate memorials and enforcement of Jim Crow went hand-in-hand. They were intended as a celebration of white supremacy when they were constructed. As recent rallies in Charlottesville and elsewhere illustrate, they are still being used as symbols and rallying points for such hate today.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by SkinsHokieFan

[twa]

57 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Which passage of the Bible does that come from? 

 

Oh you are a forgive and forget Christian?