Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[visionary]

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by visionary

[Jumbo]

 

you have to admit it can be fun to get one of those "special" ---I mock only a specific type here, and with zeal---dukes of hazard/mandingo culture-warriors who have never "heard about" (or learned) the actual dates of and reasons for the construction of many of these "cultural memorials" ---i mean as claimed by libtard pervo commie ****s, of course.

 

Obviously they don't just lay down when you give them the data---they do their myriad forms of rejection reflexively, but when it's the first time they're hearing all that info they get all flaily and steam and sputter more  than usual (the younger ones will actually bob and foam) and their little eyes will dart around so fast you think they're gonna fly out and their ears pull back tight against the skullline. 

 

it's a disorienting new experience for them, but a great means of gauging the group's individual RCA (Rapid Cognitive Adaptation) ability. then there is the actual nature of the words that come out in response. that's where the magic happens. but i understand that no matter how close they let me get, and how much time they're willing to spend with me, i can never really understand their world, nor they mine.

 

sometimes i'm more like a jane goodall.

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

[Going Commando]

Heard on NPR today that 61% oppose removing Confederate statues.

 

This is another suicidal purity test that liberals love to lose elections with, like protesting the National Anthem.

 

Not to mention there is an ugly witch hunting attitude going on in liberal media on the issue, as well as an insufferably arrogant marginalization of the Southern perspective.  And ****, agenda driven "scholarship."  Bunch of people parsing decontextualized quotes to try and score political points when they are completely out of their depth.

 

My advice to Democrats and other liberals who want to take the statues down is to win the seats in the state legislatures to do it.

[Going Commando]

On August 15, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

As opposed to how open-minded the South is to Democrats at this point?

 

I'm a white Southern Democrat.  We're out there.  And I have a lot of relatives who are Southerners with no love for white nationalists or Trump.  And seeing Trump play right to them, defending the statues, while Liberals do their utmost to alienate and exclude them scares me.

 

Democrats and Republicans could stand to learn a lot from each other.  Republicans could learn about having some principles and Democrats could learn how to actually be persuasive.

[visionary]

Seems like people in the south who don't want the statues down there removed should discuss with those in the south who do, especially regarding cities, towns that feel like they've had these (in their eyes) racist and slavery promoting statues forced on them.

 

I don't see much point to confederate statues in the north other than in museums or battlefields.  (Not crazy about destroying them though, if they are unique)

Edited August 18, 2017 by visionary

[RedskinsFan44]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Heard on NPR today that 61% oppose removing Confederate statues.

 

This is another suicidal purity test that liberals love to lose elections with, like protesting the National Anthem.

 

Not to mention there is an ugly witch hunting attitude going on in liberal media on the issue, as well as an insufferably arrogant marginalization of the Southern perspective.  And ****, agenda driven "scholarship."  Bunch of people parsing decontextualized quotes to try and score political points when they are completely out of their depth.

 

My advice to Democrats and other liberals who want to take the statues down is to win the seats in the state legislatures to do it.

If I am not mistaken the current political wave for removing the statues got rolling with Nikki Haley. Charlottesville voted to remove the Lee statue and rename the park. Baltimore and Lexington moving in similar manners. I am all for them being removed, or left up, by the localities. But Im not going to do political calculus to decide where I stand on the issue. Thats for the politicians. Healthcare and gay marriage were both political disasters for the Ds, but they sure look like they are widely accepted now. 

 

add: Vis a vis demonization, have you ever listened to right wing media?

 

Add: The national anthem thing on the left only goes to supporting a players right not to stand. Vast majority of the left happily stand for the anthem. If the right is truly serious I expect to see calls for Lynch and Bennet, and all the other guys to be removed from the NFL.  Kapernick is a soft target.

Edited August 18, 2017 by RedskinsFan44

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Not to mention there is an ugly witch hunting attitude going on in liberal media on the issue, as well as an insufferably arrogant marginalization of the Southern perspective.

 

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Democrats and Republicans could stand to learn a lot from each other.  Democrats could learn how to actually be persuasive.

From your first quote, sounds like they already are. That's right out of the GOP playbook.

[LD0506]

Contrary to popular opinion, it IS possible to have a reasoned, adult conversation about this topic, but that cannot be a case of all the righteously indignant preaching at Southerners, pointing fingers, calling name, slapping on labels and generally acting like assholes (although in many cases I doubt that it is an act).

 

 

IF WE HAD A PRESIDENT FOR INSTANCE, you know, a national leader with some semblance of moral authority that could corral the passions and get people to talk, we might be able to have this conversation. It is overdue, long overdue, but it needs to BE a conversation, two-way, back-n-forth, ask AND listen kinda process, which is not what we appear to have right now.

 

Personally I am trying to listen more, and share the voices I hear that make sense to me. Here's one. tbh I don't even know who he is (apparently he is "somebody") but I appreciated his thoughts........

 

https://regiehammblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/15/yeah-but/

[skinsmarydu]

Thanks for sharing that, @LD0506.  A must-read.

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, visionary said:

Seems like people in the south who don't want the statues down there removed should discuss with those in the south who do, especially regarding cities, towns that feel like they've had these (in their eyes) racist and slavery promoting statues forced on them.

 

I don't see much point to confederate statues in the north other than in museums or battlefields.  (Not crazy about destroying them though, if they are unique)

 

It's exclusively a state level decision in a lot of these cases though.  In blue states and even red states outside the South, I imagine that the movement to take the monuments down can get the support of local and state wide majorities.  But not in the South.  And that should be a caution to red and purple state Democrats who are pushing for the removal of the monuments.  They have a minority of in-state support and this issue will be very costly for them.

[LD0506]

I don't believe that blue/purple anything has the right to dictate to red ever (or vice versa), but dictating and demanding is not conversation, it is the antithesis of conversation. 

 

We as a nation and a society have to find our way back to discussing these things, even when they are hard and painful, hell, especially when they are hard and painful. And when you talk about something painful with people do you whack 'em over the head with your rolled up manifesto? No, you do it with compassion and understanding, sincerity and empathy, you genuinely feel for them and they know that on a fundamental level.

 

I honestly feel for Virginia right now, that have been beaten up a bit and are in the midst of something difficult and ugly, and I see no weakness in my views or myself in wanting to reach out to them to help them find their way through this. It's what Americans do, or are supposed to do............

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

If I am not mistaken the current political wave for removing the statues got rolling with Nikki Haley. Charlottesville voted to remove the Lee statue and rename the park. Baltimore and Lexington moving in similar manners. I am all for them being removed, or left up, by the localities. But Im not going to do political calculus to decide where I stand on the issue. Thats for the politicians. Healthcare and gay marriage were both political disasters for the Ds, but they sure look like they are widely accepted now. 

 

I think Nikki Haley pushed for the removal of the Stars and Bars from state property in the wake of the Emanuel AME Church killings rather than the removal of monuments.  That's a different and far more defensible position.

 

I'm not sure rank and file voters need to be doing political calculus on the issue to determine their feelings on a particular issue.  However, it should inform the political priorities of high information voters, especially if they are influential and involved in party politics.  And we voters should strive to take part in a truly representative debate and exchange between conservative & liberal & ethnic/religious minority & white interests rather than dwell in echo chambers and become radicalized/polarized.  And in this particular case, if that was happening, then I think it'd take a lot of the starch out of the movement to take the monuments down as I do not think that Northern liberals have anywhere close to majority support behind them.  It costs them political capital, and liberals need to do a far better job of picking where they spend that capital IMO, because we've been getting the **** kicked out of us on election day for the past 10 years.

 

Democrat politicians certainly need to do a better job of figuring out the political calculus on these issues.  Especially in VA, where there is a gubernatorial election in a few months and the race will be close and Northam is not a particularly inspiring candidate.  But the politicians dwell in the same echo chambers we do, and Democrats are trying to win support from an increasingly polarized and activist base too.

 

As for political sea changes on marriage equality and health care, those are interesting examples of what liberals get right, politically speaking.  Though I would caution that we're not quite there on health care yet.  The public only got behind the ACA in response to disastrous Republican alternatives, and I'm not sure the support for true reform to a single payer system is there yet.  Hoping it comes eventually.  Marriage equality is a good example of the appeal that the liberal principle of inclusivity and fairness can have in the electorate.  "Dogmatically sourced arguments should not prevent LGBT people from having a fundamental civil right."  Where liberals get into trouble is when they get too far away from their principle of universal inclusion and begin excluding and marginalizing other groups who disagree with their orthodoxy.  And that's also true in the case of marriage equality, where we activate the Right against us by doing things like targeting and shutting down businesses who object to providing services to LGBT marriages on religious grounds.  Liberals have this self-destructive tendency to overreach, far beyond the strength of our popular support, especially on social issues, and it just kills us outside of our base.

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

 

From your first quote, sounds like they already are. That's right out of the GOP playbook.

 

The Right wing media are masters of picking up on when Liberals begin marginalizing/excluding white points of view and broadcasting the instances ad infinitum to their audience.  And it's incredibly persuasive.

 

I think it's noble that Liberals are sincere in wanting to protect and give voice to so many traditionally marginalized groups in our society--religious and ethnic minorities, women, and the LGBT community.  I think it's suicidal that they so frequently do so by marginalizing the majority of the electorate in return.  It speaks to the lack of discipline that has always been a political plague for the Left.

 

I listened to this interview on NPR a few days ago, and I found Mark Lilla's arguments eye-opening: http://www.npr.org/2017/08/15/543730312/the-once-and-future-liberal-looks-at-shortfalls-of-american-liberalism

 

The whole interview is worth listening to, but I think this part is germane to our discussion:

 

Quote

ROBERT SIEGEL: But why shouldn't Democrats say, we do have a uniting vision, and it's of a country that guarantees dignity and opportunity to all, and, yeah, now we'll enumerate the various groups that are likely to experience indignities or lack of opportunities?

 

 

MARK LILLA: Well, the first part of that is excellent. It rallies people around principles. And there are two basic principles that I think have been consistent for American liberalism ever since the New Deal. One is solidarity and the other is equal protection under the law. And most of the concerns of identity groups can be put under the latter category. And most of the issues that today's progressives worry about can be put under the rubric of solidarity.

 

But the moment you start not only listing groups but thinking in terms of groups, two things are going to happen. One is you're going to leave somebody out. And if you're going to mention groups in America, you'd better mention all of them. And if you pay attention - had you paid attention to what was going on on Fox News and right-wing radio during the 2016 campaign, they picked up on this. That - they picked up on the fact that Hillary Clinton would enumerate all these groups and none of those categories applied to them.

 

 

He's right.

 

As a Southern liberal with a social circle that is mostly other white Southerners, this issue has been a gut check for me.  I have a lot of Republican friends and family members and I know only a couple that voted for Trump.  Most of them are either evangelical or chamber of commerce Republicans who hate Trump and think he's trashy and ridiculous.  But to see him come down on their side and defend the existence of the Confederate monuments against an absolute onslaught from the media made the light bulb finally go on for me.  This is how he won.  He is a master of playing to the white majorities whose points of view are excluded from the focus and debate that happens in the media and academic worlds.  I know people have been saying this for a while, it just took this long for it to click for me.  And like I said before, the fact that Trump has struck a chord here with white voters who don't like him scares me.  Democrats should tread cautiously when Trump seems to take an incomprehensible or regressive defense of a white point of view, instead of thinking "Ha! I've got him!" and zealously doling out noose for themselves.  And Republicans who break with him on issues like this in order to score points with largely liberal National audiences are playing a dangerous game.

Edited August 18, 2017 by stevemcqueen1

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The Right wing media are masters of picking up on when Liberals begin marginalizing/excluding white points of view and broadcasting the instances ad infinitum to their audience.  And it's incredibly persuasive.

I think you're giving them too much credit. I've seen their work. They don't have to try very hard.

[Kilmer17]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

I don't believe that blue/purple anything has the right to dictate to red ever (or vice versa), but dictating and demanding is not conversation, it is the antithesis of conversation. 

 

We as a nation and a society have to find our way back to discussing these things, even when they are hard and painful, hell, especially when they are hard and painful. And when you talk about something painful with people do you whack 'em over the head with your rolled up manifesto? No, you do it with compassion and understanding, sincerity and empathy, you genuinely feel for them and they know that on a fundamental level.

 

I honestly feel for Virginia right now, that have been beaten up a bit and are in the midst of something difficult and ugly, and I see no weakness in my views or myself in wanting to reach out to them to help them find their way through this. It's what Americans do, or are supposed to do............

Well said.

 

This issue is a microcosm of the divide in America right now.  I believe that people on the right are defending the statues because they believe that those on the left calling for them to be taken down are doing so JUST because they know it will piss off the people on the other side of the political spectrum.  I'm sure there is a small percentage of people who REALLY want the statues removed and a small percentage that REALLY want them to stay.  For justifiable reason on both sides.  But for the majority in this debate, this is just the latest battlefield of "Eff the other side".

[Llevron]

10 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

you have to admit it can be fun to get one of those "special" ---I mock only a specific type here, and with zeal---dukes of hazard/mandingo culture-warriors who have never "heard about" (or learned) the actual dates of and reasons for the construction of many of these "cultural memorials" ---i mean as claimed by libtard pervo commie ****s, of course.

 

Obviously they don't just lay down when you give them the data---they do their myriad forms of rejection reflexively, but when it's the first time they're hearing all that info they get all flaily and steam and sputter more  than usual (the younger ones will actually bob and foam) and their little eyes will dart around so fast you think they're gonna fly out and their ears pull back tight against the skullline. 

 

it's a disorienting new experience for them, but a great means of gauging the group's individual RCA (Rapid Cognitive Adaptation) ability. then there is the actual nature of the words that come out in response. that's where the magic happens. but i understand that no matter how close they let me get, and how much time they're willing to spend with me, i can never really understand their world, nor they mine.

 

sometimes i'm more like a jane goodall.

 

Being honest, its hard not to respond that way sometimes when someone learns you something. Its a humbling experience to hear something that should change your views entirely and lots of the cats you are talking about have no idea what it means to be humble. It feels alot like losing so they fight it at all costs.  

 

I only know this because its happened to me alot in life and on these boards. You have no idea how may times I have been dead wrong about something I was impressively confidant in lol

[RedskinsFan44]

I think it is a fair point that people with torches marching under the ostensible cause of preserving confederate statues chanting "jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" are driving this thing far more than anyone from antifa or BLM.

[KingGibbs]

The irony of all of this is the same Nazis that were protesting the removal of the statue are the ones that spearheaded the removal of most others. Too funny. Dumb ass Hick's.

[Going Commando]

16 minutes ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

I think it is a fair point that people with torches marching under the ostensible cause of preserving confederate statues chanting "jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" are driving this thing far more than anyone from antifa or BLM.

 

I think you're right.  And I think it speaks to Kilmer's point that a lot of the Left's motivation for their position on this issue is wanting to say "**** you" to those groups.  But they're not just saying "**** you" to them, and the political fallout for this position will be an issue for Democrats because the support for keeping the monuments extends far beyond the hard right core of neo-Nazis and white supremacists.  Especially within the region.

[RedskinsFan44]

It's not just fu to them,it's if these guys want to defend them what do they represent.

 

Add: Similar to Dylan Roof.  People argue that the flag represents pride, then you have pictures of a guy who killed 9 people displaying it and opinions change. I was fine with the Confederate flag when I was a teenager, Lynrd Skynrd, Tom Petty, those crazy Duke boys. As I have grown older I have reconsidered what it means to people other than what was my peer group. Now when I see one I don't think it means t"the south kicks ass!". I think it means "black people are not welcome here.".

Edited August 18, 2017 by RedskinsFan44

[No Excuses]

8 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Heard on NPR today that 61% oppose removing Confederate statues.

 

This is another suicidal purity test that liberals love to lose elections with, like protesting the National Anthem.

 

 

Liberals lose elections because they suck at getting their voters outraged and consistently to the polls. 

 

On the flip side, liberal politicians and activists have taken on social causes much more polarizing than confederate statues and won these culture wars. 

 

Playing to what the majority wants, while disregarding your core values, is how you get spineless politicians and a rigid society incapable of growth and change. No thanks.

 

And I suspect more and more Americans will gravitate to the liberal position on the confederacy. In fact, we are having this conversation because liberals have made significant gains in the urban south. 

 

 

[twa]

Looks like ya'll are losing the north though, thats some serious red.

[RedskinsFan44]

13 minutes ago, twa said:

Looks like ya'll are losing the north though, thats some serious red.

its that area vs people thing

[Llevron]

33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think you're right.  And I think it speaks to Kilmer's point that a lot of the Left's motivation for their position on this issue is wanting to say "**** you" to those groups.  But they're not just saying "**** you" to them, and the political fallout for this position will be an issue for Democrats because the support for keeping the monuments extends far beyond the hard right core of neo-Nazis and white supremacists.  Especially within the region.

 

After a certain point I think you stop worrying about political fallout. Politics has become pretty much a big pissing match between sides anyway. How much of a bad guy and idiot you can make the other guy is now all that matters. Personal attacks, lying -- whatever. Doesn't matter anymore. 

 

Like Kilmer himself said, if dems are really worried about winning they will play the game the way the Republicans are. And that basically means saying **** you to the other side. I dont think they have much to lose by forcing people to pick sides. Either you want the monuments to comedown or you are siding with Donald Trump and the Nazi's. I personally dont agree with it, but as far as political strategy goes, its exactly what the Republicans would do and we know it works.